Fundamentalist Christian leaders

[Ivan Seeking]

I find it amazing that fundamentalist Christian leaders who vehemently support the war in Iraq now point to it as a sign of the end times. What prophecy will they seek to fulfill next?

I think this all plays a huge role in the decisions made by Bush. As a fundamentalist, Bush and his fellows must by definition believe that Muslims are evil, so how in the world can these same "Christians" they be trusted with matters of national security and world peace? In effect, peace is against their religion.

I will never forget the fundamentlist in the south who told me that any good christian knows that there can be no peace in the middle east.

Smite thy enemy.

 

[SOS2008]

Ivan, surely you know you shouldn't get me started on this. The Rapture folks are anxiously waiting to be swept up into heaven and rewarded with glory for their righteousness. So of course they are doing what ever they can to bring about the End Times.

Once while discussing this topic with a family member who believes we are nearing the second coming, I asked if he believed it would be good or bad to live through it. He believes in the Last Days (not the Rapture), and said it would be horrible. I then asked why not try to divert Armageddon, and work toward peace, ending poverty, leaving a clean environment for future generations, etc.? He didn’t know how to answer—I think I confused him.

 

[Pengwuino]

Ah yes, your 1 anti-religious bigotry thread per day thread eh ivan :)

if you ever actually studied the bible... you would know that one of the only theories with a basis in the Bible that pertains to an Armaggedon is the idea that it will happen when a few requirements are met. One of which is an invasion of Israel. Some people said that many modern US presidents have always had that theory in the back of their minds when they approach middle eastern politics. The theory would, in the most technical sense, be debunked in... probably 50 years based on the idea that as long as 1 human lived at the tiem of Israel being declared a nation, it is still possible. Now say someone can live 100 years or so and you're pretty much saying its impossible after say, 2060. But bleh, up to interpretation but that's pretty strict to the text... oh well, that's off topic.

Anyhow, i think you people are surrounded by some weirdos that give a bad reputation to religion. Save your bigotry for other things.

 

[Townsend]

As a fundamentalist, Bush and his fellows must by definition believe that Muslims are evil, so how in the world can these same "Christians" they be trusted with matters of national security and world peace?

Do you have proof that Bush is a fundamentalist? And I do mean to the letter of the definition that is currently accepted. Otherwise, this thread belongs in the skeptism and debunking forum, not here!

 

[Informal Logic]

Do you have proof that Bush is a fundamentalist? And I do mean to the letter of the definition that is currently accepted. Otherwise, this thread belongs in the skeptism and debunking forum, not here!

Bush himself openly states he is born again, which goes hand in hand with fundamentalism ("The Born Again Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic" by David B. Currie, David Currie, The Born Again Skeptic's Guide To The Bible by Ruth Hurmence Green, etc.). Here is a definition of fundamentalism:

For religious fundamentalists, sacred scripture is considered the authentic word of God. Fundamentalist beliefs depend on the twin doctrines that God articulated his will precisely to prophets, and that followers also have a reliable and perfect record of that revelation, which has been passed down to modern day in an unbroken chain of tradition.

Since Scripture is considered the word of God, fundamentalists believe that no person has the right to change it or disagree with it. As a result, people are "obliged" to obey the word of God. The appeal of this point of view is its simplicity: people must do what God tells them to do. However, the fundamentalist insistence on strict observation of religious laws may lead to an accusation of "legalism" in addition to exclusivism in the interpretation of metaphysical beliefs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalism#Fundamentalism_and_politics
So what do you think? This sure sounds like Bush to me.

Oh Pengwuino, I saw a few websites about born again bigots that might interest you.

 

[Townsend]

So what do you think? This sure sounds like Bush to me.

What I think and what you think have no bearing on the truth of the statement.

And that information you gave is evidence for Bush being a fundamentalist but not proof.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Ah yes, your 1 anti-religious bigotry thread per day thread eh ivan :)

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: If you only knew how absolutely ludicrous that statement is you would crawl under the rug in shame.

if you ever actually studied the bible...

I studied the bible formally every day for eight years, with various spurts of study for another ten years, and as a member of religious youth/young adult groups while in my early twenties. There was a time that I even I considered joining the priesthood.

you would know that one of the only theories with a basis in the Bible that pertains to an Armaggedon is the idea that it will happen when a few requirements are met.

So tell the fundamentalists since they're the ones making the claim. But I agree, people like Bush and his crooks don't even know the bible. As a Christian and an American I find them to be an embarrassment.

Anyhow, i think you people are surrounded by some weirdos that give a bad reputation to religion. Save your bigotry for other things.

I have been a Christian my entire life. I have also attended five churches regularly including Catholic, Mormon, Lutheran, a Born again something or other, a “non-denominational” congregation, and have also attended another five or so out of interest over the years. Until recently Tsu was very active in the Presbyterian Church as a Deacon, so obviously I have attended there from time to time. In fact I can hardly keep them all straight any longer. I guess I should add that for eight years I attended church six or seven days a week.

I am not against religion, I am against those who use it to satisfy their own psychological problems, to “lead the sheep astray”, and to promote their own brand of self righteous psycho-boloney.

For example, no good Christian would ever support the use of torture.

 

[SOS2008]

What I think and what you think have no bearing on the truth of the statement.
And that information you gave is evidence for Bush being a fundamentalist but not proof.

I see your point -- Who can know another's heart? Bush could be lying, and many think he has just to get the Christian vote (which he lost in his first run for congress). If he has been faking it, he's done a great job with his constant quotes from hymns, scriptures, etc., though I suppose a bible-carrying speechwriter could be helping with that.

 

[McGyver]

There definitely is merit to your "prophecy" argument in both the Bush White House, and in many accepted beliefs by America's religious right.

What believers must also consider is that "witchcraft, or any other means that which attempt to interpret the future" is forbidden by historical bibilcal accounts.

In general terms, the use of prophecies and forecasting tends to cause people to "act out" the specific interpretations and forecasts of the future," and bring them to fruition - rather than DO YOUR BEST and let what does happen then play out. This is ever so apparent in the stock market, in how leading news develops, the mindset in large group gatherings, and among conspiracy theorists.

Intelligence reigns!

 

[edward]

The odd thing about whether or not Bush is a fundamentalist Christian is the fact that the fundamentalist Christians believe that he is. Thereby any war in the middle east is justified in the eyes of the fundamentalists. The war in Iraq reafirmed their belief that Bush is a fundamentalist.

Personally, since the vote of the fundamentalists was needed to win election, I think the whole "Bush is a fundamentalist" thing was contrived.

 

[Gokul43201]

Do you have proof that Bush is a fundamentalist?

Does expressing in public that you believe that "God speaks through" you, count ?

 

[Townsend]

Does expressing in public that you believe that "God speaks through" you, count ?

Of course not since that does not meet the definition of a fundamentalist.

 

[edward]

Of course not since that does not meet the definition of a fundamentalist.

According to my very fundamentalist sister- in -law. A fundamentalist is a person who believes that the Bible is the inerrant word of God. Inerrant is her word not mine. To fundamentalists it reflect Gods divine word.

October 6, 2005, 8:08 PM EDT


LONDON -- US President George W. Bush allegedly said God told him to invade Iraq and Afghanistan, a new BBC documentary will reveal, according to details released on Thursday.

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/world/ny-wobush1007,0,5941044.story?coll=ny-world-big-pix

 

[Gokul43201]

Of course not since that does not meet the definition of a fundamentalist.

Okay then..not fundamentalist, just loony !

 

[Gokul43201]

This article suggests that Bush is not fundamentalist : http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance44.html

 

[SOS2008]

This article suggests that Bush is not fundamentalist : http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance44.html

So a mustard seed started it all? No wonder! :rofl: Seriously, the author seems to be saying that Bush is not a good Christian, which is not necessarily the same thing as being a fundamentalist. And I'd say the author is not a good Christian either--sounds like a bigot to me.

 

[Townsend]

Okay then..not fundamentalist, just loony !

Yeah...there are many bad names you could call him and I would agree with you on a lot of them but I don't believe fundamentalist is accurate.

I have met some HARD CORE Christian fundamentalist and I could not stand them. They are so frickin stuck on what they believe that you just can't talk to them about anything...:yuck:

 

[Gokul43201]

So a mustard seed started it all? No wonder! :rofl: Seriously, the author seems to be saying that Bush is not a good Christian, which is not necessarily the same thing as being a fundamentalist. And I'd say the author is not a good Christian either--sounds like a bigot to me.

It seemed to me that the author fit the prescription for being a fundamentalist. And so, by his rants, Bush can not be one...at least he can't be a good one.

But maybe he's just lousy at being a fundamentalist...just like he's lousy at other things !

 

[Mercator]

Ah yes, your 1 anti-religious bigotry thread per day thread eh ivan :)

if you ever actually studied the bible... you would know that one of the only theories with a basis in the Bible that pertains to an Armaggedon is the idea that it will happen when a few requirements are met. ...

Anyhow, i think you people are surrounded by some weirdos that give a bad reputation to religion. Save your bigotry for other things.

That's a good one. "Weirdos that give a bad reputation to religion." Religion does not need non-religious weirdos to give it a bad reputation. Religion is the single biggest cause of problems on this planet.

I am so glad to know that there are a few requirements to be met before an Armaggedon is in sight. And all that because somebody supposedly said so.

 

[kat]

Religion does not need non-religious weirdos to give it a bad reputation. Religion is the single biggest cause of problems on this planet.

and to think I thought it was greed...

 

[Ivan Seeking]

But maybe he's just lousy at being a fundamentalist...just like he's lousy at other things !

My father-in-law thinks it all a ruse. I have never bought into that though. Bush strikes me as a typical, shallow convert - that is, he is religious as long as it suits him, and if not, he rationalizes things to whatever ends he desires.

 

[Mercator]

and to think I thought it was greed...

You may be right. Religion is only a tool for the greedy.

 

[Astronuc]

My father-in-law thinks it all a ruse. I have never bought into that though. Bush strikes me as a typical, shallow convert - that is, he is religious as long as it suits him, and if not, he rationalizes things to whatever ends he desires.

I seem to remember that his wife Laura strongly encouraged Bush to become 'religious', and may have had something to do with his giving up his alcohol abuse.

. . . George W. Bush, like most who decide to quit drinking, did so on his own without help, press reports following the revelation of his 1976 DUI arrest reveal.

It appears from all reports, that candidate Bush did abuse alcohol for a long period of his life, but in 1986 decided to quit, because it began to "compete for his energy."

from About.com

She [Laura] met George W. Bush in 1977 and after a three month courtship married him on November 5 of that year. In 1981, she gave birth to twin daughters, Barbara and Jenna, who have now graduated from college.

from Wikipedia.

Very likely Bush quit alcohol because Laura gave him an ultimatum. Amazing that he waited 5 years to quit drinking after the birth of his twin daughters.

I wonder when Laura discovered that Bush had been arrested and apparently convicted for DUI (actually he failed a sobriety test so it should have been DWI, unless they are the same in Maine)?

 

[Informal Logic]

I seem to remember that his wife Laura strongly encouraged Bush to become 'religious', and may have had something to do with his giving up his alcohol abuse.

Very likely Bush quit alcohol because Laura gave him an ultimatum. Amazing that he waited 5 years to quit drinking after the birth of his twin daughters.
I wonder when Laura discovered that Bush had been arrested and apparently convicted for DUI (actually he failed a sobriety test so it should have been DWI, unless they are the same in Maine)?

I have seen other sources suggesting marital problems as incentive. If you add to that his political aspirations, I am sure he realized he could hardly seek election if serving time for DUI's. Most of all, the religious vote is important, particularly in states like Texas. The only sincere part may be use of religion to deal with alcoholism.