Gaza War Analysis

  • #26
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when the IRA was doing random bombing in England
the royal airforce was never used to bomb IRA strongholds
food, medical supplys and the movements of people were not blocked
the rights of people were respected
the Zionist state does do all of the above except respect the arab peoples rights
and sadly my [USA] tax dollars pay for much of the repression



trying the same failed ideas harder has never ever worked
intil the gaza's people can trade and travel freely there will be no peace
 
  • #27
russ_watters
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ray, can you explain why Israel should have such obligations in a war? Can you give any examples from history where people have done such things? The IRA/GB situation does not qualify - it wasn't a war. The IRA isn't/wasn't a government and had no organized military.

The lengths Israel is going to to protect the civilians are absurd. A 3 hour daily cease fire? Calling civilians to tell them to leave areas about to be bombed? No one ever does these things - Hamas certainly does not go to such lengths to protect their own people.
intil the gaza's people can trade and travel freely there will be no peace
By what logic should Israel make such concessions before peace? What is in it for them? How does Hamas deserve such concessions when they have demonstrated an unwillingness to be peaceful? Why should Israel be required to make all of their concessions before Hamas even accepts Israel's right to exist?

Can't you see how twisted an unequal the burden being placed on Israel is?
 
  • #28
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Israel has a very long history of repression of nonjews
gaza is just a big ghetto
block food shipments and donot let the people leave to find work
and then be amazed that they throw bombs? HELLO

BOTH SIDES ARE WRONG AND DO WRONG

I JUST WOULD LIKE THE SIDE GETTING 10 BILLION OF MY COUNTRYS TAX DOLLARS
to act better then a bunch of ghetto arabs

I did not ask Israel steal arabs land or bomb the engish in to leaving
to start this mess but the time has come to try something different
 
  • #29
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this is not a war or a equal fight
one side has home made rockets and some guns
the other has tanks and modern jets

and is far closer to the IRA vs brits then not
you need to explain why it is not in you view
plo-hamas-gaza has no more troops or equipment then the IRA did
and is fighting very very much the same kind of nonwar conflict
against people invading their homeland and limiting their rights
with freedom and respect their common goals for their oppressed people
sure they do not play nice< throw bombs ect SO WHAT ?
 
  • #30
siddharth
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ray, can you explain why Israel should have such obligations in a war? Can you give any examples from history where people have done such things? The IRA/GB situation does not qualify - it wasn't a war. The IRA isn't/wasn't a government and had no organized military.
Why should previous war be a valid context for Israel's actions? People's sensitivities change. IMO, the scale of Israel's attack is completely unacceptable, if one considers the number of civilian casualties. As some commentator said (can't find the reference), it's like an eye for an eyelash.

russ said:
1. The two sides are both tightly managing the action due to the overlap between the tactical and strategic.
2. Both sides are, for the most part, acting correctly insofar as their actions are properly calculated to further their goals.
I object to your second point in the strongest possible terms. Perhaps I lack your ability to objectively look at the events to determine possible strategies, but How can the death of (innocent) children and civilians ever be the correct course of action? Obviously Hamas are very guilty themselves, which brings me to my next point...

cyrus said:
Now there up in arms about the fact that the school was hit, despite the fact that HAMAS was firing rockets inside the school first, using the children as human sheilds. But to them, LOOK AT THE ISRAELIS ATTACKING SCHOOL CHILDREN!
Do you think that every dead civilian was used as a shield? Even the ones from the aerial bombardment and artillery strikes? Besides, the only source you have on Israel's claims in this conflict are statements released by their military, as they've cut off access to independent reporters. Seems like the propaganda goes two ways.

What do you make of new reports like this?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...escribe-horror-of-strike-which-killed-70.html

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ioi_0jtO9RjMwPNRoXNCndRPRq3gD95J82Q00 [Broken]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090108/wl_mideast_afp/mideastconflictgazaicrcwounded_newsmlmmd [Broken]

The Red Cross on Thursday accused Israel of failing to help wounded people in an area of Gaza where its rescuers found four small children huddling next to their dead mothers, too weak to stand up.

The Israeli military "failed to meet its obligation under international humanitarian law to care for and evacuate the wounded," the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) said in an unusually blunt statement.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7819492.stm

I cannot imagine how anyone can *ever* justify actions which lead to such results. I don't think that the attack by Israel is going to solve anything, and especially not the rockets being fired into its borders. If anything, it's only going to provoke more attacks.

Also,

Russ said:
How does Hamas deserve such concessions when they have demonstrated an unwillingness to be peaceful?
While the blame game can go on forever, I hope you realize that Israel isn't entirely innocent in trying to maintain peace. While I don't know the accuracy, I've come across many reports which suggest that Israel indeed violated the ceasefire.

Finally,
- Yes, I am suggesting that they are purposely maximizing their own civilian casualties. High civilian casualties are critical to their strategic goal, and that goal dovetails nicely with goal #2. I won't get into it much, but their ideology also supports that type of tactic
In my opinion, that is absolute nonsense. I think it's far more likely that the palestinian individuals, and members of Hamas, view this war as a freedom struggle to get back the land which they think belongs to them. I don't think they would deliberately try to maximize civilian causalities.
 
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  • #31
mjsd
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BOTH SIDES ARE WRONG AND DO WRONG

I JUST WOULD LIKE THE SIDE GETTING 10 BILLION OF MY COUNTRYS TAX DOLLARS
to act better then a bunch of ghetto arabs

I did not ask Israel steal arabs land or bomb the engish in to leaving
to start this mess but the time has come to try something different
No doubt, in a "better world", both sides should have chosen some other options in resolving it. But since Hamas has been labelled a "terrorist organisation", it means negotiation is off the table IMMEDIATELY. And it seems that being "good and honorable" ppl implies that we do not yield until we defeat them outright. however, I struggle to understand what "victory" really entails in this arena.

If achieving lasting peace is their priority over everything else (including national/racial/religious pride), then try something else they will. If not, it would probably just be an endless loop of attacks and counter-attacks until one side can't take it anymore.

oh, don't worry about your $10b of taxes, if they are not going down the drain like this, they will usually find their ways to other mud holes.
 
  • #32
mjsd
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How does Hamas deserve such concessions when they have demonstrated an unwillingness to be peaceful? Why should Israel be required to make all of their concessions before Hamas even accepts Israel's right to exist?
Hamas may not deserve anything, but the ordinary people of Gaza/West Bank, as well as all Israeli civilians, "average joes" probably deserve something better. No one says that achieving a peaceful coexistence of the both sides is going to be easy, but it is fairly clear that if both sides are unwilling to yield, there can be no peace for some time to come.

Having said that, since Israel is far stronger than Hamas, it seems to me that Israeli strategy is to push all palestinian resistance out by force rather than by negotiation. Mmm... not sure whether it can work in the longer term though.
 
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  • #33
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Well I believe Israel is a real terrorist. First of all, they don't have any morality, how can they kill children???
And if this war is because of land, well this land is for Hamas and Israel has occupied it. So Hamas is fighting for it's right.
 
  • #34
seycyrus
Once again, it must be pointed out that Israeli leaders have publicly apologized for and stated that they try to minimize the deaths of innocent palestinians.

I call on you to use the mighty google to *try* to find an occurence of a Hamas leader or spokesperson apologizing for the deaths of an innocent jew.
 
  • #35
Art
There is a video of them shooting of Mortars from that very same UN school back in 07. Aint nothing new here.

Dont under estimate the brand name loyalty people from the Middle East have for palestine. They will look for any excuse to blame israel. To them, they see "40 children dead". What they dont see is, "Hamas hiding among school children".
Please provide a source for this unfounded allegation.
 
  • #36
seycyrus
Please provide a source for this unfounded allegation.
I think the initial "outrage" of past exagerated atrocities and then the expressed disinterest when the truth comes out certainly demonstrates a modus operandi.

Let's look at Jenin.
 
  • #37
Art
I was just reading that: they were called "occupied territories" because they were occupied in the 1967 war. Until a week ago, the were completely unoccupied, yet the world community seems unwilling to change that classification. That is very strange to me and reeks of moral cowardace. Here's the article: http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/06/israel.gaza.occupation.question/index.html

I agree, though, that Hamas is using the only tactics at it's disposal to get what it wants. That's not a value judgement on their goals, it just means that they are cognizant of what they want, what they are doing, and what they are up against.
Israel stopped 'occupying' the Gaza strip because as occupiers under international law they were obliged to feed and maintain the population. By ending the occupation and instead turning the Gaza strip into a huge prison camp with Israel controlling all movement in and out by land, sea and air, Israel hoped to get the best of both worlds, a docile population with no tiresome responsibilities. The UN however declared Israel were in fact still de facto occupiers.
 
  • #38
Art
I think the initial "outrage" of past exagerated atrocities and then the expressed disinterest when the truth comes out certainly demonstrates a modus operandi.

Let's look at Jenin.
No, I want Cyrus to back up his statement. If you wish to discuss modus operandi how about this BBC report.
Israel 'shelled civilian shelter

Israeli forces shelled a house in the Gaza Strip which they had moved around 110 Palestinians into 24 hours earlier, the UN quotes witnesses as saying.

The UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) called it "one of the gravest incidents" since the beginning of the offensive.

The shelling at Zeitoun, a south-east suburb of Gaza City, on 5 January killed some 30 people, the report said.

Israel said the allegations were being investigated.

"According to several testimonies, on 4 January Israeli foot soldiers evacuated approximately 110 Palestinians into a single-residence house in Zeitoun (half of whom were children) warning them to stay indoors," the OCHA report said.

"Twenty-four hours later, Israeli forces shelled the home repeatedly, killing approximately 30."

The UN said those who survived and were able walked 2km to the main north-south road to be transported to hospital in civilian vehicles.

"Three children, the youngest of whom was five months old, died upon arrival at the hospital," the report said.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7819492.stm
 
  • #39
mjsd
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I think the initial "outrage" of past exagerated atrocities and then the expressed disinterest when the truth comes out certainly demonstrates a modus operandi.

Let's look at Jenin.
by the way Art, as far as I understand it, this thread is not supposed to be a debate on which side has the moral high ground, but instead, what they are trying to achieve (with or without morals). So, it is unimportant to verify petit allegations as such.
 
  • #40
seycyrus
No, I want Cyrus to back up his statement.
Which statement exactly? That the population he is describing has a certain tendency to a particular skewed viewpoint? It is apparent to me that his statement is valid.
 
  • #41
seycyrus
Israel stopped 'occupying' the Gaza strip because as occupiers under international law they were obliged to feed and maintain the population.
Please provide evidence for this unfounded statement.

I don't want conjecture or an opinion. I want an Israeli leader or spokesperson stating that this is the reason Israel withdrew.
 
  • #42
seycyrus
No, I want Cyrus to back up his statement. If you wish to discuss modus operandi how about this BBC report. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7819492.stm
As has been brought up repeatedly, mistakes happen, and tragically people die.

Israel did not target the people on purpose.
 
  • #43
Art
Please provide evidence for this unfounded statement.

I don't want conjecture or an opinion. I want an Israeli leader or spokesperson stating that this is the reason Israel withdrew.
I didn't say it was the only reason. However here is an Israeli source confirming my contention.
Israel's control of the airspace and the territorial waters of the Gaza Strip

With final implementation of the "disengagement plan," on 12 September 2005, OC Central Command, Major-General Dan Harel, issued a proclamation declaring the end of the military government in the Gaza Strip. With this, Israel contended, its control of Gaza came to an end and it was no longer responsible for what happened there. Israel incorporated this contention in the language of the disengagement plan which it drafted, however the disengagement plan also states that," Israel will hold sole control of Gaza airspace and will continue to carry out military activity in the waters of the Gaza Strip." Indeed, Israel has maintained total and sole control of Gaza's airspace and the territorial waters, just as it has from the time when the occupation of the Gaza Strip began, in 1967.
http://www.btselem.org/english/Gaza_Strip/Control_on_Air_space_and_territorial_waters.asp
 
  • #44
Art
As has been brought up repeatedly, mistakes happen, and tragically people die.

Israel did not target the people on purpose.
I'm curious, how do you accidentally pour tank fire into a building for 10 minutes?
 
  • #46
Art
by the way Art, as far as I understand it, this thread is not supposed to be a debate on which side has the moral high ground, but instead, what they are trying to achieve (with or without morals). So, it is unimportant to verify petit allegations as such.
These petit allegations quickly become 'facts' if left unchallenged.
 
  • #47
seycyrus
I'm curious, how do you accidentally pour tank fire into a building for 10 minutes?
It is mistakenly declared a military target and shelled as such. If Israel wanted those peopel dead, they could have just executed them instead of trying to relocate them to a safe zone.

They gathered them up for humanitarian reasons as is apparent from the bit of the article you posted. Another example of the great lengths that Israel is going to minimize casualties.
 
  • #48
mjsd
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As has been brought up repeatedly, mistakes happen, and tragically people die.

Israel did not target the people on purpose.
It is probably not good for their image to have so many Palestinians killed, so it is not to their advantage to target the civilians. But by entering the city and countless massive airstrikes, they know people will be killed (like it or not). As a result, they may be making a mistake strategically in doing so.
 
  • #49
seycyrus
... As a result, they may be making a mistake strategically in doing so.
Evidently many believed that it wouuld have been a far greater strategic mistake to allow the thousands of rockets to continue to fly into Israel for years to come.

That might seem to be a flip statement, but it is more than that.

Israeli leaders are not stupid. They knew ahead of time what risks they were taking. They weighed the pros and cons of reataliating for the Hamas rocket fire and against the pros and cons of doing nothing and continuing to let the rockets fly.
 
  • #50
mjsd
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These petit allegations quickly become 'facts' if left unchallenged.
hey, I thought all of us are educated ppl here, and we won't just blindly accept anything... or do we? :smile:

It is mistakenly declared a military target and shelled as such. If Israel wanted those peopel dead, they could have just executed them instead of trying to relocate them to a safe zone.

They gathered them up for humanitarian reasons as is apparent from the bit of the article you posted. Another example of the great lengths that Israel is going to minimize casualties.
Unfortunately, it all comes to nothing. If this offensive is not being scaled down soon, any "great lengths" taken will be of no consequence, because frankly ppl will continue to die, mistakes will continue to come,.... hey, talking about "great lengths that Israel is prepare to go".... well, it would be quite difficult to argue the case when body count is still sky-rocketing.

Sure, they have tried, but have they really tried hard enough? Anyway, If they are not achieving their aim of keeping the moral high ground in this conflict, perhaps a new shift in strategy is required? After all, the world only wants to see less casualties... most ppl don't even know what the dispute is all about.
 

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