Girl stabbed 19 times by 12-year-old friends

[Greg Bernhardt]

This happened in the same town I grew up and I even went to the same middle school, so this hits close to home. The motivation was to appease Slender Man, a story made up on some internet forum. These deranged girls took it too far. Some parents are calling for more internet monitoring. Like that will do any good. They could have used anything as inspiration. Time and time again they question is whether these girls had any past signs of needing help. Poor mental health strikes again IMO.

12-year-old Wisconsin girl stabbed 19 times; friends arrested
http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/03/justice/wisconsin-girl-stabbed/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

 

[lendav_rott]

Some years back there was an incident where some crazy teen girls, 12-14-15 or so had a party and poured some high concetrated alkali liquid (basic?) they use for cleaning drainpipes on the house owner's cat. I didn't even care about the messed-up-in-the-head-severely-retarded-girls, I felt sorry for the cat.

I keep hearing about crazy shizzle happening everywhere, 10 years ago I would have had a shock, now, it just don't surprise me. Like, I don't know how to react to this kind of stuff anymore :s As if it's some kind of norm. You go to work and say: "hey what's new?" and they say indifferently: "oh some kids got shot in some school, you know, the usual" and instead of freaking out and going "oh my gooooood" you just don't care.

I will get 10000 times more upset if I hear about some mis-treatment of animals compared to reading about school shooting or stabbings.

 

[Monique]

Those kids must've had a messed up youth to perform such an act of violence. I'm surprised they're going to trial the girls as adults, they're children. I wonder what the future holds for them. I'm glad the girl survived, hopefully she will overcome the injuries and have good support for her future.

 

[256bits]

Bizarre, to say the least.

I am of the opinion that crazy stuff like this happens everyday somewhere, but a lot of it goes unreported in the national press and they just pick and choose a story to follow for their readership.

 

[Psinter]

Some parents are calling for more internet monitoring. Like that will do any good.

I agree.

As for the event itself, I feel indignation. Argh, this is so frustrating.

Makes me wonder: what if it was me? And makes me want to train even harder. I have to become stronger.

I really hope she gets better and her body recovers to a proper condition in which she can train for the future and show offenders that she is no one to mess with.

I am of the opinion that crazy stuff like this happens everyday somewhere, but a lot of it goes unreported in the national press and they just pick and choose a story to follow for their readership.

Exactly, that's why I say training.

 

[gerbi]

Terrible news.. Poor girl..
And those two stabers are treated as adults - max 65 yrs in prison ? starting from age of 12.. my god, that's equally terrible.
I wonder what parents can do to prevent this kind of violence ? Talk more with their kids ? Talk about world that surrounds us and this kind of brilliant ideas that sometimes appears in young minds ?

What do you think ?

 

[adjacent]

And those two stabers are treated as adults - max 65 yrs in prison ? starting from age of 12.. my god, that's equally terrible.

They stabbed someone so they have to pay for it. What if they stabbed you? Will you say "Poor girls,they stabbed me and they are being put inside prison for 65 years"?

12 year people are not small babies, they should be able to understand the world around them. It's the law that made x>18 years adults. However, its nature which decides when a child will truly become an adult. They understand that stabbing someone will be fatal.

 

[Monique]

They stabbed someone so they have to pay for it. What if they stabbed you? Will you say "Poor girls,they stabbed me and they are being put inside prison for 65 years"?

12 year people are not small babies, they should be able to understand the world around them. It's the law that made x>18 years adults. However, its nature which decides when a child will truly become an adult. They understand that stabbing someone will be fatal.

It is scientifically proven that the brain is not fully developed until around 21-25 years of age. Those girls should not be treated as adults, because they aren't.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=141164708

Under most laws, young people are recognized as adults at age 18. But emerging science about brain development suggests that most people don't reach full maturity until the age 25.

 

[adjacent]

It is scientifically proven that the brain is not fully developed until around 21 years of age. Those girls should not be treated as adults, because they aren't.

What if the girl who was stabbed was your daughter? Will you still say that they should not be punished? Yes, 65 years is too much for them but they should be punished.

 

[Monique]

Of course, but what is an appropriate punishment. You think jail time would do them good? I think they need some serious counseling and give back to society by working with victims of crimes or caring for the disabled. That would teach them a lesson.

 

[gerbi]

What if they stabbed you?

Or my daughter.. Should I ask to hang them then ? C'mon.
I'm not so sure that they knew what were they doing. You know any 12 yo kids ? Imagine them separated from parents\family and put them in jail. Trauma.

12 year people are not small babies, they should be able to understand the world around them.

Again, you know any 12 yo kids ? Do they act like aduls ? From my expierence they don't.

 

[adjacent]

Imagine them separated from parents\family and put them in jail. Trauma.

Yeah. I think I am being too cruel

Again, you know any 12 yo kids ?

Yes. When I was 12, I knew that hurting and killing people were not good. I knew it very well. I can't even imagine killing someone.I played games like God of War when I was 12, but I knew that I am in the real world and god of war is fictional.
I think it's the responsibility of their parents to teach that to them. Their parents need serious counseling too.

 

[256bits]

A 12 year old individual should be able to discern the difference between right and wrong, and to me the something that is terrible about this is that the two girls set out to murder someone else on a lark, in a premeditated fashion. At that young of an age where does someone get the idea of murder? Their age of innocence must have been surely long gone to have such thoughts in their minds.

 

[adjacent]

At that young of an age where does someone get the idea of murder? Their age of innocence must have been surely long gone to have such thoughts in their minds.

Yes. I agree completely

 

[D H]

A 12 year old individual should be able to discern the difference between right and wrong, and to me the something that is terrible about this is that the two girls set out to murder someone else on a lark, in a premeditated fashion.

Should and can are two very different things. They can't, at least not fully. Countries all over the world treat youth and adult offenders differently. Look what these girls did: They attempted to kill a friend to impress to a character who exists only in fictional stories. These girls can't tell fact from fiction.

That children are not adults is why countries all over the world have an age below which children can't vote, an age below which they can't drive a car, an age below which they can't drink, an age below which they can't join the military. There are also special protections for children in most countries. An adult having sex with an underage child is a very serious crime in most countries. There is no such thing as consensual sex between an adult and a child. Children also receive special protections when they commit crimes. Adults are deemed responsible; children are not. These special protections and special treatments are the flip side of barring children from voting, driving, drinking, or fighting in wars.

 

[adjacent]

These girls can't tell fact from fiction.

Does that mean that I was extraordinary?(No offence intended*Try to recall, were you so innocent that you lived in imaginary worlds when you were 12?) Trying to kill someone is too much,even for 12 year olds.

 

[interhacker]

Just to share some related information, I knew a person in real life who developed a sort of murderous nature when he/she was about 13 or 14. The person used to be pretty confident and friendly as a child but when the person reached that age, he/she became sort of anti-social and strange. On top of that, some of the stuff the person began to say was disturbing.

The person started telling his/her friends (I was one of the person's friends, too. Though we were not that close) of dreaming about some sort of religious entity giving him orders. The person once said that he/she had been ordered to kill a family member. At this point, we became sort of concerned and informed his/her parents and the family member in question about the issue. The person received counseling and a few months later he/she became normal again. All I'm saying is, people at that age getting these ideas isn't as rare as you think.

In addition, It's not slender-man or other internet folklore that's the issue since the person I'm talking about didn't even have an internet connection at the time. The real problem, in my opinion, is the negligence of the parents, guardians and/or family members of the girls who stabbed that poor child. I'm sure with a little bit of counseling they would have become alright and have turned out to be an asset for the society. The person I talked about now has lots of friends, has a great sense of humor and wants to be a doctor after high-school, to help people.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I'm surprised they're going to trial the girls as adults, they're children.

In the US, in many states the juvenile justice system "resets" at the age of majority, and no matter what juvenile offenses one may have committed, one is released into society. I can understand why people might not want to release someone who planned a murder for months and feels no remorse about it after just a few years.

If you want to argue that there needs to be more of a continuum, I would agree with you.

 

[Monique]

In the US, in many states the juvenile justice system "resets" at the age of majority

You mean maturity? If they're treated as adults, they'll be in the juvenile system? And what would that mean, they'd be able to get an education?

 

[D H]

You mean maturity?

V50 meant what he wrote, which was majority. When a person matures varies from individual to individual. Some children are very mature and very responsible, some adults remain very immature throughout their lives. Age of majority is a somewhat arbitrary line drawn in the sand that says "you are now legally an adult." It is strictly based on age, typically the 18th birthday.

In most states, juvenile records are expunged at the age of majority. Is is as if their juvenile crimes didn't happen. In a regular criminal court, the jury is responsible for finding the defendant guilty or not guilty (not guilty or innocent). In a juvenile court, the finding is delinquent or not delinquent rather than guilty or not guilty.

People under the age of majority can be tried as adults if the circumstances warrant it. When that happens, the finding will be guilty or not guilty rather than delinquent or not delinquent, and if found guilty, the record will not be expunged when the defendant reaches the age of majority.

 

[Monique]

Oh ok, that's a use of the word I'm not familiar with. Thanks for explaining. I agree that premeditated murder should stay on someone's record, as long it's not open for the public to see.

 

[Evo]

I read that they will also be having psychiciatric evaluations, at least one of them may be mentally ill.

According to the criminal complaint, the Wisconsin girls planned to run away to Slender Man's forest mansion after the slaying. One girl told police they decided to kill their friend so they could become proxies of Slender Man, who would accept them and let them live with him in his mansion in the Nicolet National Forest.

The other girl said she sees Slender Man in her dreams. She said he watches her and can read her mind and teleport.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/slender-man-stabbings-who-is-slender-man-1.2663012

 

[lendav_rott]

MY solution to such problems would be akin to dealing with rabid wild beasts - there's only one solution, but I imagine that might not be too popular a viewpoint.

I don't understand what this will change if one of the girls is pronounced mentally ill. Suddenly she is free of all responsibility? We have something like that here - the perpetrator isn't legally responsible for his/her actions if they are with papers (proved to be a bit woohoo by a psychiatrist). One of such cases was last year when a mother tried to burn herself and her child ALIVE in her own apartment. In 2011, I was in Australia, Perth -> heard in the radio that a boyfriend tried to burn his girlfriend ALIVE in a house (also happened to be on the job some few streets across, saw the smoke and called the firefighters etc) after learning she had cheated on him. Both of these cases - the culprits were cleared of all charges BECAUSE they were proven to be mentally ill.

Come on, this is...bs, seriously, I can put on an act too, make it convincing and all.

Should I ever have a child for some unknown reason and have someone stab him or her to near death, I don't care if the attackers are sane or insane, they had better run.

 

[Evo]

If she is found competent to stand trial, it means she may also receive psychiatric care in prison. If she is found incompetent to stand trial, she will be institutionalized until such time as she is found competant to stand trial. (There are limits) It is unlikely this will be used since the girls both admitted it was wrong, but were willing to kill for the personal perceived *benefits* to them.

Also, here is the US

What is "guilty but mentally ill (GBMI)"?

Faced with the difficulty of cases such as Ralph Tortorici's, where a defendant has clearly committed the crimes in question but is obviously mentally ill, many states have adopted laws providing for a "guilty but mentally ill" plea or verdict. This does not eliminate the insanity defense; it is merely an alternative for defendants who are found to be mentally ill, but whose illness is not severe enough to relieve him of criminal responsibility.

A defendant who receives a GBMI verdict is sentenced in the same way as if he were found guilty. The court then determines whether and to what extent he requires treatment for mental illness. When, and if, the defendant is deemed "cured" of his mental illness, he is required to serve out the rest of his sentence, unlike an insanity-defense acquittee who would be released from psychiatric commitment once he is deemed to be no longer dangerous.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/crime/trial/faqs.html

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/crime/trial/faqs.html

 

[Borg]

I just don't know what to think about this. Beyond the fact that they decided to kill another human, there is clearly something wrong with these girls to get so wrapped up in an online fantasy to the point that they began to think of it as a reality.

It reminds me of a recent story in the DC area where two teenage girls abused a mentally challenged boy for months. They led him to believe that he was the boyfriend of one girl and used that to get him to do dangerous and disturbing things that they filmed. Their own videos finally did them in but they have expressed no remorse whatsoever since they've been caught and sentenced. When she was arrested, one of the girls said "You can't arrest me, I have a test tomorrow". Clearly, no concept of the gravity of the situation.

 

[adjacent]

You can't arrest me, I have a test tomorrow.

 

[lisab]

Oh ok, that's a use of the word I'm not familiar with. Thanks for explaining. I agree that premeditated murder should stay on someone's record, as long it's not open for the public to see.

In my state, if a juvenile is convicted of a crime their file is "sealed". It still exists, but it takes extraordinary means to get it opened. You would need a judge's permission to open it.

But maybe more importantly: regardless of the severity of the crime, juveniles are released from custody at age 18. So if someone murders at 12 and they are tried as a juvenile, they will be in jail until they turn 18, and when they leave they are "clean" - no criminal record. The only way around this is to try them as adults.

Of course a Google search could find records of the crime but they would certainly change their name when they are released.

This system was put in place to protect young people, since they are not mature yet and should not be held accountable for stupid decisions. Problem is, for those outlier juveniles who commit particularly heinous crimes, society simply isn't willing to take a chance on them. We've seen what happens too many times.

 

[Evo]

I think expunging of juvenile crimes like drugs, vandelism, etc... are ok, if the kid has proven they have stopped these behaviours. Even accidental homicide, like pointing what they thought was an empty gun at a friend. That's really bad, but ok, I'll go with them being incredibly stupid and naive and not a threat to society.

Premeditated murder? No. That should be a permanent public record.

 

[Astronuc]

I think expunging of juvenile crimes like drugs, vandelism, etc... are ok, if the kid has proven they have stopped these behaviours. Even accidental homicide, like pointing what they thought was an empty gun at a friend. That's really bad, but ok, I'll go with them being incredibly stupid and naive and not a threat to society.

Premeditated murder? No. That should be a permanent public record.

I think premeditation and violence should be considerations on the treatment of the offenders and disposition of records. I think the public has a right to know if someone has been violent, particularly when premeditated. It should be clear to anyone that violence, except for self-defense, is unacceptable.

 

[Monique]

I think premeditation and violence should be considerations on the treatment of the offenders and disposition of records. I think the public has a right to know if someone has been violent, particularly when premeditated. It should be clear to anyone that violence, except for self-defense, is unacceptable.

Yeah, only children are not able to oversee the consequences, although this case is particularly evil. I've done stupid things as a child, I wouldn't want that to be a public record. If the juvenile delinquent shows sincere realization of fault, such a record should not be public for everyone to see (in my opinion).

 

[interhacker]

You know, i don't think they should have mentioned the names of the victim and the culprits on TV.

 

[Evo]

Yeah, only children are not able to oversee the consequences, although this case is particularly evil. I've done stupid things as a child, I wouldn't want that to be a public record. If the juvenile delinquent shows sincere realization of fault, such a record should not be public for everyone to see (in my opinion).

But admission of guilt with no remorse is serious.

 

[Monique]

But admission of guilt with no remorse is serious.

Yes, I think it is evil. Clearly they are 12-year old (messed up) children. Do you think that someone in a state of psychosis has any idea of the world around them? One has no idea what is going on in their brains and they could show remorse when they get out of this state.

A friend of mine one night went into a psychosis, ran into the streets and tore off all her clothes and started rolling in the grass naked and screaming hysterically. When her husband ran out to see what was going on, she screamed "don't get near me, I'm going to explode". She ran outside to protect her family, but with this kind of madness she could have hurt them as well. No drugs were involved if you may wonder. That person normally had a very quiet, timid, polite personality.

All I'm saying is that sometimes people do messed up things, but they can recover from that state. That may or may not be the case here, but dealing with these people as rabid wild beasts is as inhumane.

 

[julcab12]

... Choices are intrinsic and will remain that way. Our actions are programmed and motivated. They failed in the "no violence-killing" and value of life program which is supposedly a parent and societies key responsibility. You don't expect a child to act accordingly w/out the parent guiding them somehow(exception of mental issues). Other motivations are caused by (media sources-violence) which is a bigger issue and should be systematized, guided and provisioned. Honestly, I'm more enraged with the PARENTS and that crime could be avoided.

 

[mheslep]

It is scientifically proven that the brain is not fully developed until around 21-25 years of age. Those girls should not be treated as adults, because they aren't.

Trying the girls as adults does not mean that the state believes they actually *are* adults, but that the state will treat them as adults under the criminal justice system. In this case, it is likely these circumstances warranted such treatment. In particular, I expect the rights of everyone else to remain safe from these two in the future was seen to outweigh the possibility that they'll somehow not be just as evil as adults, since treating them as children almost guarantees their release within a few years.