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God and the uncertainty principle

  1. Jan 8, 2005 #1
    First of all: I'm sorry if this question has been asked before. I tried a search, but couldn't find anything.

    So, the uncertainty principle prohibites anyone from knowing the exact location and velocity of a particle... If there was a God, wouldn't he/she have to know the exact location and velocity of every particle in the entire universe?

    If he/she were to make something happend in a distant galaxy, let's say make a person "see a sign from God in his/her head/imagination/dream". If God were supposed to do this, he would have to rearrange a series of particles resulting in the person's brain depicting what he wants it to depict. But according to Heisenberg, shouldn't this be impossible?

    So, can the uncertainty principle outrule a "controlling" God?

    Im sure there's a lot more to this question, and I'm faaaar from any expert...

    Cheers
     
  2. jcsd
  3. Jan 8, 2005 #2
    If you truly have faith in God, you should understand that neither the simple thoughts of your limited mind, nor the mind of Heisenberg may reveal the secrets of God.
    *I don't mean to get religious at all with this comment, and the admins shouldn't hesitate to delete if they see fit.*

    ----- nwO ruoY evaH ,deeN oN <----?eeS I tahW eeS uoY oD
     
  4. Jan 8, 2005 #3
    People once thought that angels held up the universe, then thought progressed that earth was the centre of the universe. Now we finally understand that we are just a small, almost insignificant part of the universe.

    As humans progess our thought progress's as well; I am sure that five hundred years from now the uncertainty principal will be eliminated and the problem of momentum and position will seem insignificant.
    You must remember; that to say something is completly right is just as wrong as saying something is completly wrong. Therefore you can not base your thoughts about a "devine God" on our primitive knowledge of the nature of the universe.
     
  5. Jan 9, 2005 #4

    loseyourname

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    The uncertainty principle states that we cannot measure certain quantities in concert, not that it is impossible to simply know the value of these quantities. Presumably, if there is a God, he is not postulated to measure or calculate physical quantities, he just knows them. There is no need for him to acquire this knowledge in the same way that a human acquires knowledge.

    At least that's the impression that I get. I'm not religious myself.
     
  6. Jan 9, 2005 #5
    The Uncertaincy princpal states that it is impossible to know the values of both momentum and position at any given time, since to view an object you must eject some sort if energy into into it, therefore allowing the electrons to leave there ground state. Also since it is currently impossible to have something travel faster then the speed of light, it is impossible to know both momentum and positon at the same time.

    If there was a God and he was restriced to our laws there would be no possible way he could veiw something and know its momentum and position at the same time. But like I said humans once thought that angels held the moon in place...
     
  7. Jan 9, 2005 #6

    loseyourname

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    Well, like I said, I'm pretty sure God isn't said to view anything. God doesn't even possess a sensory system. He just knows.
     
  8. Jan 9, 2005 #7
    Thanks for the replies.

    So, can anyone recommend any scientific books discussing God's role in modern physics?

    I'm not religious btw.

    Thanks
     
  9. Jan 9, 2005 #8

    selfAdjoint

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    Max Jammer wrote a book called Einstein and Religion, which covers Einstein's religious development (so misunderstood by the public) but also discusses various attempts to square the idea of an omniscient god with the concepts of relativity. Starting with a naive identification of omniscience with four dimensional spacetime, this enterprise pretty much ran out in the dust. Truly "God was in (or not in) the details."
     
  10. Jan 9, 2005 #9

    loseyourname

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    There is a book I remember seeing on a bookshelf called God in the Equation. From what I can tell, it was contending that Einstein was right when he included the cosmological constant in the TOR and that the cosmological constant is God. Don't take my word for it, though, because I did not read or even open up the book. I just read the back.
     
  11. Jan 11, 2005 #10
    God particle & secret formula

    Also there is "Gods Particle" which pertains to the alledged Higgs boson give rise to mass of all fermionic matter particles of Universe.

    Peter Plichtas "Gods Secret Formula" uses complex and trancendental numbers to arrive at his geometric "Prime Number Cross" and two kinds of space (1/0).

    I would say the there is "only order" in the physical Universe an that the uncertainty principle does not neccessitate chaotic uncertainty of metaphysical mind i.e. not knowing some of the order of Universe because its being to micro or to macro in scope does not mean that we have to aquiess/succumb to any "superficial only" chaos of mind due to the lack of our understanding/comprehesnion of the order.

    Of course that is easier said then done. :)

    Rybo
     
  12. Jan 11, 2005 #11

    StatusX

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    The uncertainty principle isn't just about measurement, it says that the particles don't have specific positions and velocities.
     
  13. Jan 11, 2005 #12

    Garth

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    How do you know?

    sony
    From a Christian (non-fundamentalist) perspective try "Beyond Science" by John Polkinghorne (Cambridge University Press 1996). J.P. was formely Professor of Theoretical Physics at Cambridge University.
    From a non-Christian perspective try "God and the New Physics" (J M Dent 1983) or "The Mind of God" (Simon & Schuster 1992) both by Paul Davies, formely Professor of Theoretical Physics at Newcastle University now Department of Earth and Planetary Sciences, The Australian Centre for Astrobiology, Macquarie University.


    Garth
     
  14. Jan 11, 2005 #13
    whats really going on at the atomic and subatmic?

    Stat, nobody really knows what all the details of whats going on at the atomic and sub-atomic levels.

    Is it a particle? Is a wave? Is energy just motion? Whats moving? Whats vibrating? Is there something moving/vibrating beyond our accepted speed-of-radiation?

    I think there are specfic positions, velocities and geometries as well as limits to what is feasible if not what is possible to ascertain about these aspects/attiorbutes of the quantum world/realm.

    Rybo
     
  15. Jan 11, 2005 #14

    StatusX

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    The idea that particles have definite positions and velocities before we measure them, and that measuring is merely "retrieving" these values is called "local realism." It is in conflict with the standard copenhagen interpretation of QM, and the Bell inequality was proposed as a way to distinguish these views experimentally. To date, the experiments have confirmed the standard interpretation of QM, that particles really don't have any definite physical values until we observe them.
     
  16. Jan 11, 2005 #15

    russ_watters

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    Ie, if an electron had a specific position and velocity, regardless of if we could measure it, it wouldn't diffract or have interference - but it does.

    For the initial question: God is God. He, if he exists, exists outside of science. He would not be confined by it.
     
  17. Jan 11, 2005 #16

    PerennialII

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    I think you can apply the free will / deterministic universe works very much to this problem as well, and both can survive the existence of God.
     
  18. Jan 11, 2005 #17
    Is God a diffractionated wave pattern?

    Russ, im not aware of any experiments with a single electron, photon or any alledged particles that reult in a diffracted wave pattern on any osciliscope, photosensor screen or whatever etc....

    Aparently many atomic and sub-atomic particles as well as any alledged God is outside of science(physics/physical) to some degree in that the diffractioned wave patterns of these particles and God appear as being metaphysical and instantaneous communications over large distances ergo beyond our udnerstanding and comprehension of our finite physical Universe. I dunno.

    Rybo
     
  19. Jan 11, 2005 #18
    Wait a second... Isn't God a power that effects this physical world. Why does the uncertainty princeple defeat the notion of God? As I see it, the challange to the faith in God would be a physical world which is totally predictable, for if that where true God's roll as a moderator would be defeated, and our choice to chose Good or Evil would be defeated as well.

    ----- nwO ruoY evaH ,deeN oN <----?eeS I tahW eeS uoY oD
     
  20. Jan 11, 2005 #19

    russ_watters

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    You don't need a single photon to prove the wave/particle duality and quantify the uncertainty principle, but since you asked, HERE is the first link brought back by Google.
     
  21. Jan 11, 2005 #20
    I agree there is duality but we only observe particles(QED)

    Russ, thanks for this link. I havent read it all the way through nor am I sure I will be able to understand it enough to conlcude that they are using only one photon to produce a diffracted wave pattern.

    1) You may have misunderstood mymeaning. I did not say nor did I mean to imply that that we "need" a single photon experiment, to prove the particle/wave duality. That duality has been proven via many of the same particle over time creating the diffracted pattern on an elctronic screen or some such detecting equipment.

    Here again is the quote for the particle aspect of the single photon experiment.

    ---"In this demonstration we perform the double-slit interference experiment with extremely dim light. Rather than the usual screen, the arrival of individual photons is registered and stored electronically. This alone is evidence for the graininess or particle nature of light."----

    Here they saying it is individual photons but still they are talking about an accumulation of many photons over time.

    2) Also they state the following they they are not detecting single photons of light but photoelectrons(whatever that is):

    ---Comments: Single photon interference experiments are not new. 12 * Strictly speaking, we are not detecting single photons of light but rather single photoelectrons, liberated by the light impinging on the detector screen. Nevertheless, the quantum nature of light is evident. The positions of arrival (of the photons) are random but the probabilities of arriving at certain positions are not. This is beautifully born out in the demonstration.----

    Im not and expert Russ but from most of what i read the diffracted(ineterference) wave pattern is still only accomplished with multiple photons or photoelectrons or electrons etc....

    Finally what does "quantify the uncertainty principle" mean? To confirm its validity?

    Again uncertainty is only one aspect/attribute not being observable simultaneously to the other and, not that there is not and unknown set of specific position or positions at any time. Maybe this is just totally wrong on my part. Idunno

    Im very much an undeducated amateur layperson trying to be a theoretical physicist type from reading the laybooks and surfing the net.

    God is the whole of physical and metphysical Universe for me. Humans have the unigue ability to conceptually place theirselve outside of a conceptually finite Universe and look back in and say they are God and hold the whole Universe in their conceptual hands.

    In this sense God may represent the physical Universe and God{es}may respresent the metaphysical Universe, with the two being in eternal complementation to each other.

    Geez, I may have strayed far from the topic of the orginal question. I dunno. :)



    Rybo
     
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