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God in quantum universe?

  1. May 10, 2003 #1
    In our quantum universe future is not set. So, how could God know "all what comes" if there is non yet?
     
  2. jcsd
  3. May 10, 2003 #2
    And yet it seems the higher the "intelligence factor," the less likely things are apt to occur by chance. In other words you seem to have put the "cart before the horse."

    Whereas if I see a car driving down the road, and I know that road only goes one place, say to the end of town, then I could fairly reasonably "predict" the car is going to the end of town.

    How much more difficult do you think it would be for God to do, if in fact He understood "the principle" to all things?
     
  4. May 10, 2003 #3
    Re: Re: God in quantum universe?

    Only with some probability (car may ran out of gas or oil, or skid into trench at turn, tire may blow, driver may get important call, or realize that this is dead end, etc etc). That is exactly what our world seems to be - uncertainty and probability. Thus no way of knowing exact future - it is not set yet.

    Thus, uncompartibility of such "knowing-it-all" God with our universe.
     
  5. May 10, 2003 #4
    Re: Re: Re: God in quantum universe?

    Wouldn't it be fair to say that things which are governed by "higher principles" (on evolutionary scale if nothing else) are less subject to chance? If so, doesn't that make them "more predictable?"
     
  6. May 10, 2003 #5
    Because God is the source of the quantum-universe, and we must presume that God knows where his own energy (body, so to speak) is going to 'act'.
    I cannot predict what my next post shall be. But the words I use shall be of my own will. Get the drift?
     
  7. May 10, 2003 #6
    Once god made universe quantum, then he lost all control over its futher future.
     
  8. May 10, 2003 #7
    That's like saying that once God made his own thoughts unpredictable, that he lost control over his own thoughts.
    But even my thoughts are unpredictable. Yet I know what I shall say when I want to say it.
    Your thread is defunct.
     
  9. May 10, 2003 #8

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    If you can control your thoughts, then your thoughts are simply not unpredictable for you...

    (Newsflash: recent experiment shows that there is a change in brain impulses about 100 miliseconds before an action is consciously considered. Is this evidence of a mind before a mind? Or a subconcious puppet master?)
     
  10. May 11, 2003 #9
    You can create a calculator that doesn't make mistakes can't you? It would just be a matter of understanding the "principles" that go into creating it. Therefore, if God understands the principles that go into all things, why can't He also understand how everything turns out in the end?
     
  11. May 11, 2003 #10
    Quantum is only unpredictable to us. It may not be to any God, if one existed.
     
  12. May 11, 2003 #11
    I think atheists want it both ways. We seem to be damned if it is and damned if it isn't. Are you now saying the world is *unpredictable*, but still there is no place for God? As I remember it, in the 19th centuary you proclaimed that the universe was purely mechanical and *predictable* with no place left for God.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2003
  13. May 11, 2003 #12

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    Pretty much... :wink:

    There a different problem, depending on which way you look at it.

    Absolute determinism -> no free will -> morality etc do not make sense -> irrelevance of God

    No determinism -> no predictability -> contradiction with omniscience clause -> God is irrational

    Or so it seems....

    EDIT: ie. it isn't a matter of there being no place for God now, but that he is inconsistent with the things we observe. The laws of quantum uncertainty, for example....
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2003
  14. May 11, 2003 #13
    And yet the higher the "faculty of reason," the less one is likely to make mistakes ... albeit there was probably an "initial choice" to be reasonable in the first place.

    You see if perfection existed then that would be determinism, for there would be "nothing" to determine. And yet in order to achieve perfection (or, allow for its potential), then you have to have free will.
     
  15. May 11, 2003 #14
    programmers add randomness to games to make them more interesting, yet they still control every aspect of the game and can add and subtract from it as they wish :wink:. saying god cant exist in a random universe is like saying "this game has randomness, therefore it could not have been programmed by a programmer." we know the programmer exist outside of the computer therefore he could have created randomness in the game from the beginning. so if god can exist outside of our universe why couldnt he create a random universe and then meddle around with it as he sees fit?
     
  16. May 11, 2003 #15
    To make my point more clear let's consider the following example. Suppose, we have a quantum wavetrain of 1 mile long (say, a red He-Ne laser photon). Does God know exact position of this wave?

    Even math does not know that (simply because it is not defined), how God can?

    On the other hand, if God does not indeed know position of wave better than "somwhere within the mile" then He does not know where a photon will be absorbed (triggering some alternative events depending on location) thus what is the outcome of absorbtion.

    Because our universe is a bunch of wavetrains, it is inherently unpredictable (better say, only predictable down to uncertainty principle limits), thus its future too is only predictable statistically.

    The "light cone" of unpredictability (so to speak) makes future events exponentially less and less predictable with time down into future.

    That is what I mean by "future in not set yet".

    So, no God can "know all what comes" in quantum universe.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 11, 2003
  17. May 14, 2003 #16
    I think a God who is no more than mathematics would be no God at all. If God has escaped your perception until now, is it reasonable to assume anything about him?
     
  18. May 14, 2003 #17

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    Regardless of which dimension/universe god resides in, if he expects me to believe him without any proof of his existance, and will punish me after I die if I do not believe, then I, as a decent person, would gladly except that punishment and smile in his face.

    If god is mathematics, then I'd say god is not a concious being. If he is quantum, then obviously he is in a world which we shall not meet with him. Hey, maybe someday we will. Untill that day, I'll take the high road and appreciate life for what it is, not worrying about what happens when I die. One thing is for certain, I'll have an infinite amount of time to do so.
     
  19. May 14, 2003 #18

    Alex. Your question is easily answerable. The god of whatever religious mythology you speak of can know ONLY and EXACTLY what the mythology says that God knows. If the mythology does not address a certain piece of information that this god knows, the only answer is you cannot know weather this god knows it or not.

    The answer is undefined.

    Again, please see my sig. Don't superimpose (religious) mythology on to reality.
     
  20. May 15, 2003 #19
    Yeah, of course. I think that most here understand that religions (=widely spread system beliefs WITHOUT factual/logical background) are just kind of moxture of superstition and mythology - whether it is about Santa or Jahove or Jesus, or about flat Earth or even about real persons like Elvis.

    What I try to analyse here - is there ANY room for god(s) in physical world, or by its very definition God is outside of it. By other words, which laws of Nature we have to "cancel" by assuming existence of God?

    It seems to me that most of them.
     
  21. May 16, 2003 #20
    Do you know the true reason for that unpredictability? your answer is no, and you can't use that argument.

    Lets face it, god is undisprovable. Thus its axiom, assumption that can be either true or false. Its probability of being either is exactly 50%, no less, no more. How we define god is factually irrelevant. Sad part of most religions is that they've been used as weapon against human mind, to lock it. Those who lock onto concept of god, are lost to progress of civilization and are stuck in vegetative indulging. Luckily there are not too many. Healthy amount of doubt and independance of any mantras allows one to have open mind for any possibility. To argue about definitions of god is completely fruitless, and attempt to convert people is aggression. Given our childish state of understanding of god, colored by only myriad of idiotic religions, it can be only very very personal matter, very bland discussions.

    Any room? There's always room. As long as there exists one single axiom, there is room. Maybe logic of universe and time are not quite that, but they're as close as you can get to common part of all definitions of god, trinity. They are literally everywhere.
     
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