God in quantum universe?

  • Thread starter Alexander
  • Start date
  • #1
Alexander

Main Question or Discussion Point

In our quantum universe future is not set. So, how could God know "all what comes" if there is non yet?
 

Answers and Replies

  • #2
2,225
0
Originally posted by Alexander
In our quantum universe future is not set. So, how could God know "all what comes" if there is non yet?
And yet it seems the higher the "intelligence factor," the less likely things are apt to occur by chance. In other words you seem to have put the "cart before the horse."

Whereas if I see a car driving down the road, and I know that road only goes one place, say to the end of town, then I could fairly reasonably "predict" the car is going to the end of town.

How much more difficult do you think it would be for God to do, if in fact He understood "the principle" to all things?
 
  • #3
Alexander


Originally posted by Iacchus32


Whereas if I see a car driving down the road, and I know that road only goes one place, say to the end of town, then I could fairly reasonably "predict" the car is going to the end of town.

Only with some probability (car may ran out of gas or oil, or skid into trench at turn, tire may blow, driver may get important call, or realize that this is dead end, etc etc). That is exactly what our world seems to be - uncertainty and probability. Thus no way of knowing exact future - it is not set yet.

Thus, uncompartibility of such "knowing-it-all" God with our universe.
 
  • #4
2,225
0


Originally posted by Alexander
Only with some probability (car may ran out of gas or oil, or skid into trench at turn, tire may blow, driver may get important call, or realize that this is dead end, etc etc). That is exactly what our world seems to be - uncertainty and probability. Thus no way of knowing exact future - it is not set yet.

Thus, uncompartibility of such "knowing-it-all" God with our universe.
Wouldn't it be fair to say that things which are governed by "higher principles" (on evolutionary scale if nothing else) are less subject to chance? If so, doesn't that make them "more predictable?"
 
  • #5
Lifegazer
Originally posted by Alexander
In our quantum universe future is not set. So, how could God know "all what comes" if there is non yet?
Because God is the source of the quantum-universe, and we must presume that God knows where his own energy (body, so to speak) is going to 'act'.
I cannot predict what my next post shall be. But the words I use shall be of my own will. Get the drift?
 
  • #6
Alexander
Once god made universe quantum, then he lost all control over its futher future.
 
  • #7
Lifegazer
Originally posted by Alexander
Once god made universe quantum, then he lost all control over its futher future.
That's like saying that once God made his own thoughts unpredictable, that he lost control over his own thoughts.
But even my thoughts are unpredictable. Yet I know what I shall say when I want to say it.
Your thread is defunct.
 
  • #8
FZ+
1,561
2
If you can control your thoughts, then your thoughts are simply not unpredictable for you...

(Newsflash: recent experiment shows that there is a change in brain impulses about 100 miliseconds before an action is consciously considered. Is this evidence of a mind before a mind? Or a subconcious puppet master?)
 
  • #9
2,225
0
Originally posted by Alexander
In our quantum universe future is not set. So, how could God know "all what comes" if there is non yet?
You can create a calculator that doesn't make mistakes can't you? It would just be a matter of understanding the "principles" that go into creating it. Therefore, if God understands the principles that go into all things, why can't He also understand how everything turns out in the end?
 
  • #10
167
1
Quantum is only unpredictable to us. It may not be to any God, if one existed.
 
  • #11
259
0
I think atheists want it both ways. We seem to be damned if it is and damned if it isn't. Are you now saying the world is *unpredictable*, but still there is no place for God? As I remember it, in the 19th centuary you proclaimed that the universe was purely mechanical and *predictable* with no place left for God.
 
Last edited:
  • #12
FZ+
1,561
2
So we are damned if it is and damned if it isn't.
Pretty much... :wink:

There a different problem, depending on which way you look at it.

Absolute determinism -> no free will -> morality etc do not make sense -> irrelevance of God

No determinism -> no predictability -> contradiction with omniscience clause -> God is irrational

Or so it seems....

EDIT: ie. it isn't a matter of there being no place for God now, but that he is inconsistent with the things we observe. The laws of quantum uncertainty, for example....
 
Last edited:
  • #13
2,225
0
Originally posted by FZ+
Pretty much... :wink:

There a different problem, depending on which way you look at it.

Absolute determinism -> no free will -> morality etc do not make sense -> irrelevance of God

No determinism -> no predictability -> contradiction with omniscience clause -> God is irrational

Or so it seems....

EDIT: ie. it isn't a matter of there being no place for God now, but that he is inconsistent with the things we observe. The laws of quantum uncertainty, for example....
And yet the higher the "faculty of reason," the less one is likely to make mistakes ... albeit there was probably an "initial choice" to be reasonable in the first place.

You see if perfection existed then that would be determinism, for there would be "nothing" to determine. And yet in order to achieve perfection (or, allow for its potential), then you have to have free will.
 
  • #14
92
0
programmers add randomness to games to make them more interesting, yet they still control every aspect of the game and can add and subtract from it as they wish :wink:. saying god cant exist in a random universe is like saying "this game has randomness, therefore it could not have been programmed by a programmer." we know the programmer exist outside of the computer therefore he could have created randomness in the game from the beginning. so if god can exist outside of our universe why couldnt he create a random universe and then meddle around with it as he sees fit?
 
  • #15
Alexander
To make my point more clear let's consider the following example. Suppose, we have a quantum wavetrain of 1 mile long (say, a red He-Ne laser photon). Does God know exact position of this wave?

Even math does not know that (simply because it is not defined), how God can?

On the other hand, if God does not indeed know position of wave better than "somwhere within the mile" then He does not know where a photon will be absorbed (triggering some alternative events depending on location) thus what is the outcome of absorbtion.

Because our universe is a bunch of wavetrains, it is inherently unpredictable (better say, only predictable down to uncertainty principle limits), thus its future too is only predictable statistically.

The "light cone" of unpredictability (so to speak) makes future events exponentially less and less predictable with time down into future.

That is what I mean by "future in not set yet".

So, no God can "know all what comes" in quantum universe.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #16
259
0
I think a God who is no more than mathematics would be no God at all. If God has escaped your perception until now, is it reasonable to assume anything about him?
 
  • #17
megashawn
Science Advisor
435
0
Regardless of which dimension/universe god resides in, if he expects me to believe him without any proof of his existance, and will punish me after I die if I do not believe, then I, as a decent person, would gladly except that punishment and smile in his face.

If god is mathematics, then I'd say god is not a concious being. If he is quantum, then obviously he is in a world which we shall not meet with him. Hey, maybe someday we will. Untill that day, I'll take the high road and appreciate life for what it is, not worrying about what happens when I die. One thing is for certain, I'll have an infinite amount of time to do so.
 
  • #18
LogicalAtheist
Originally posted by Alexander
In our quantum universe future is not set. So, how could God know "all what comes" if there is non yet?

Alex. Your question is easily answerable. The god of whatever religious mythology you speak of can know ONLY and EXACTLY what the mythology says that God knows. If the mythology does not address a certain piece of information that this god knows, the only answer is you cannot know weather this god knows it or not.

The answer is undefined.

Again, please see my sig. Don't superimpose (religious) mythology on to reality.
 
  • #19
Alexander
Yeah, of course. I think that most here understand that religions (=widely spread system beliefs WITHOUT factual/logical background) are just kind of moxture of superstition and mythology - whether it is about Santa or Jahove or Jesus, or about flat Earth or even about real persons like Elvis.

What I try to analyse here - is there ANY room for god(s) in physical world, or by its very definition God is outside of it. By other words, which laws of Nature we have to "cancel" by assuming existence of God?

It seems to me that most of them.
 
  • #20
479
0
Originally posted by Alexander
Even math does not know that (simply because it is not defined), how God can?

The "light cone" of unpredictability (so to speak) makes future events exponentially less and less predictable with time down into future.
Do you know the true reason for that unpredictability? your answer is no, and you can't use that argument.

What I try to analyse here - is there ANY room for god(s) in physical world, or by its very definition God is outside of it. By other words, which laws of Nature we have to "cancel" by assuming existence of God?
Lets face it, god is undisprovable. Thus its axiom, assumption that can be either true or false. Its probability of being either is exactly 50%, no less, no more. How we define god is factually irrelevant. Sad part of most religions is that they've been used as weapon against human mind, to lock it. Those who lock onto concept of god, are lost to progress of civilization and are stuck in vegetative indulging. Luckily there are not too many. Healthy amount of doubt and independance of any mantras allows one to have open mind for any possibility. To argue about definitions of god is completely fruitless, and attempt to convert people is aggression. Given our childish state of understanding of god, colored by only myriad of idiotic religions, it can be only very very personal matter, very bland discussions.

Any room? There's always room. As long as there exists one single axiom, there is room. Maybe logic of universe and time are not quite that, but they're as close as you can get to common part of all definitions of god, trinity. They are literally everywhere.
 
  • #21
FZ+
1,561
2
Its probability of being either is exactly 50%, no less, no more.
No. The probability varies from observer to observer, depending on experience, genetics etc. To have an unified probability that is true for everyone kinda defeats the point of having probabilities in the first place....
 
  • #22
479
0
Originally posted by FZ+
No. The probability varies from observer to observer, depending on experience, genetics etc. To have an unified probability that is true for everyone kinda defeats the point of having probabilities in the first place....
wow, thats kinda deep. Probability of encountering god after death varies from observer to observer, location, etc..
Quantum god in universe?
 
  • #23
FZ+
1,561
2
And hence, gentlemen, is the proof for the wave-particle duality of Divine Entities.
 
  • #24
Alexander
Originally posted by wimms
Do you know the true reason for that unpredictability? your answer is no, and you can't use that argument.


Of course, I do. The reason is that many systems obey specific kind of differential equations which solution is exponent (of time). And exponent is DIVERGING (with time) function. Thus very small (subatomic) change in some initial condition today may result in completely different behavior of such system tomorrow.



Lets face it, god is undisprovable.
Incorrect. God is undefinable simply because it does not exist. Define Him, and I'll prove to you that He does not exist. Make sure you definition is acceptable (=complies with Bible or at least with major dogmas of religion).

Now, if God is undefinable, then He does not exist by definition. There is NO god(s) yet unless you define it (them).

So, God does not exist simply because He is undefinable. No object (or subject) yet. Nothing to discuss existence of therefore.



Any room? There's always room. As long as there exists one single axiom, there is room. Maybe logic of universe and time are not quite that, but they're as close as you can get to common part of all definitions of god, trinity. They are literally everywhere.
Any fact to substantiate your "observation" of everywhereness? I think you have too rich imagination which does not let you to separate facts from illusions.
 
  • #25
Alexander
Originally posted by FZ+
And hence, gentlemen, is the proof for the wave-particle duality of Divine Entities.
Indeed. And it vanishes every time observer takes a look. Collapse of Divine wave fuction, you know.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Related Threads for: God in quantum universe?

Replies
8
Views
2K
  • Last Post
Replies
3
Views
1K
  • Last Post
Replies
22
Views
5K
Replies
116
Views
18K
Replies
35
Views
4K
Replies
16
Views
4K
  • Last Post
3
Replies
65
Views
6K
Top