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God is redundant. A Theory

  1. Apr 18, 2005 #1
    This is my first post here. I am glad I found this forum.

    Ok about that subject.

    I was thinking to myself this weekend about the idea of god. (I am an atheist)

    And thinking like an atheist/science fan (I say "fan" because I am definitely no guru), I am always trying to come up with ideas to dis-prove gods existence. Although it is pretty hard to dis-prove something that has never been proven to begin with.

    I am sure this has been thought of before, but I thought of it myself this weekend.

    It includes 3 elements: Existence - god - everything else

    Existence. The essence of all that is, was and shall be. Existence is the purest form of any force, because without it, nothing would exist. Including existence its self.

    Because of this, I have a theory that the force of existence is infinite. This theory is based on the fact that existence could not exist without existence.

    With that in mind, lets move onto the god thing.

    If god exists, he exists under the rules of existence. Meaning that even god cannot exist without the force of existence.

    God cannot have created existence, because he would have to exist first to create it. And because he cannot exist without existence, he is not the ultimate power. Existence is above him.

    If existence were to cease to exist, so would everything else. Including god.

    So my conclusion is that if existence could create god ->

    (I use the term "create" loosley. Much in the same way that gravity (and a series of other factors) "creates" diamonds from coal. It is simply an "effect" of its presence.)

    It could also create the universe, everything in it, and then some without the need of "god".

    This theory of course does not dis-prove god. It does however render him useless in a sense. The idea of god is that he is all powerful. If god has no power over his own existence, he is not all powerful.

    The problem with this theory is of course:

    The idea that "God IS existence"...(Those theists have an answer for everything don't they! Its too bad its always the same answer!)

    I am still working on thinking of a theory for that one. If anyone has any input, please feel free to add to this.
     
  2. jcsd
  3. Apr 19, 2005 #2
    Maybe it is always the same answer because it is always true, the right answer.
    Start from "God is", Then go from there. To start with "God is not." leads nowhere but to paradoxes, contradictions and undecideable questions. There is a reason for this.
    "If your logic is correct and your conclusion is impossible, check your premises; one or more must be false."
     
  4. Apr 19, 2005 #3
    I am sorry Royce,

    I cannot blindly accept something that has never been proven, and which holds no solid ground to stand on.

    The answer "God did it" is not logical, it is not rational, and is unacceptable.

    My philosophy is this: (And you can quote me on this.)
    "My "proof" that god does not exist is your "lack of proof" that he does.
    Afterall, why should I have to prove there is no god? You are the one that invented him."
    -Me

    It is actually quite aggrivating that intelligent, civilized people of the modern world have to "dis-prove" something that was never proven to begin with, and unwind an ancient myth that was started by "practically cave men" thousands and thousands of years ago.

    Personally, I think that the idea of god should just be completely dropped from existence until someone can actually come up with the proof that one actually exists.

    And I can assure you I am not alone on that one.
     
  5. Apr 19, 2005 #4
    First, I am as it is defined, a strong antitheist atheist
    I completely agree. It's not about dis-proving god, but about proving him. As nobody has, me, as a pseudoscientific and phylosfizer person, can't belief in god without empirical, mathematical or philosofical proves.

    I think your demostration is a good one. But there are many others, thousands that dis-prove god without any good real demostration or even definition of god, not even defined!!

    The only problem of your demostration is that it states that there IS a complete power over all: Existence. It is hard to not use that, or to prove that it isn't, but it has to be possible.
     
  6. Apr 19, 2005 #5
    I can definately see where you are coming from. I think my brain would explode if I tried to dis-prove that existence is the highest form of.. well.. anything.

    Anyone could use the same arguments that are used against god, against that demonstration. Such as, "existence couldn't have always existed. Something must have created it! It came from somewhere, etc..."

    Of course the difference is, in order for something to create something, wether it be by plan or chaos, it must exist in order to do so.

    Although I do know that "something from nothing" is possible, and has already been proven it happens.

    Which is why I say that I have a theory that existence is infinite. My brain could explode just trying to fully explore that theory.

    Why does existence exist? I could say "because it must", but then I will sound like a theist blindly guessing at something that I probably can't even begin to imagine.

    One thing I do know. Existence does exist. I can prove that. Hell, I don't even need to prove that. The fact that you are reading this post right now proves that.

    I don't know if we will find the answers to our questions in this generation or the next, or the one after that.

    I think we are headed in the right direction (at least a hadfull of us are.)

    I also think that the more theists there are in this world blindly believing in hocus poscus, the less likely the human race is to ever finding the truth.

    Hell, more than 90% of our thought resources (theist minds) are being drained by laziness, ignorance and stubbornness, rather than actually thinking about what might really be.
     
  7. Apr 19, 2005 #6
    The problem with this argument is that it is based purely on semantics. There are tons of paradoxs that can be created with language and the concepts that we use and yet somehow that doesn't stop nature from humming right along as if everything is working consistently and in harmony. This type of argument isn't convincing to me.

    And what do you consider to be proof? The problem here is that you are holding everyone to your standard of proof. It's an easy position to suggest that everyone conform to an objective standard of proof but the fact is that many people who believe in god believe that they have all the proof they need. The fact that they cannot prove it to you is simply because god is not subject to your objective standards of proof. This is not unlike consciousness. You can't even prove to anyone that you are conscious so it too seems to escape your objective standards of proof. Yet I'm sure you'll argue that you are indeed conscious. What's to stop me from calling you an idiot for believing something like this that you cannot prove?

    Yes, you're in safe company going with the 10% side. :rofl:

    This is nonsense. This isn't possible, by definition. If someone is claiming that this has happened then they aren't using the understood definitions for the word "nothing".


    No offense but this is some of the most close minded writing I've seen in this forum. And I'm not even a theist! To suggest that the opponent view is "lazy, stubborn, and ignorant" is just being intellectually dishonest. Sure those people exists, but to assume that this is the driving force behind the entire view is just lazy in itself. I am very critical of myself when I find that I am calling the rest of the world a bunch of idiots because they have a different opinion from me. In these cases, I find that there is usually something I don't understand. Judging from this post, I am almost certain this is the case here as well.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2005
  8. Apr 20, 2005 #7
    Proof is proof beyond the shadow of a doubt. Proof cannot be dis-proven if it has truly been proven. Proof is fact not opinion as you would have it. Yes if something has been proven and I am denying it, then I am an idiot. As well as anyone else denying it. Until that moment, anyone claiming that something is fact without proof is an idiot.

    Of course your argument would probably be, how can I prove that they are an idiot? Maybe you are an idiot? Maybe red is actually blue and water is thinner than air? Those are not a factors in my demonstration, and until those issues reveal themselves to be of any relevance to this discussion, I will ignore them.

    My argument is a theory, not my belief. I do not have proof, and I explicitly and thoroughly stated that throughout the entire message. I lay no claims, and I do not "bare false whines". I do not claim my theory to be the one true "fact".

    The idea of god is also a theory, and one with an extremely poor foundation of evidence if I do say so myself.



    I agree. It is pathetic. In fact it makes me sick to know that I am surrounded by as many mindless zombies as I am.


    http://www.harvardmagazine.com/on-line/010544.html
    Of course I am sure you will say that by me believing in this, (or anything I read for that matter), I am just as bad as a theist believing in religious writings. Fair enough. But I am willing to bet my bottom dollar that if I were to perform the experiments that I read about in scientific writings, I would find just about every word of it to be true.

    If this post is "closed minded", then I would love to see you on a theist forum. Pick one. Any one. You will have a field day.

    There is nothing closed minded about my post, with perhaps the exception of the "lazy, stubborn, and ignorant" part. :uhh: Yes I am very "closed minded" when it comes to people being brainwashed, and mindlessly accepting things to be fact, and actually killing people over it when they can't even prove it!

    Yes. I am closed minded about that. I am also anti theist, and have been labeled by friends and family to be an "Atheist Extremist".

    Although I haven't burnt any churches down. So I would not consider myself to be an extremist.
     
  9. Apr 20, 2005 #8
    Hi, I like your first post Sintwar.
    I have a few questions and comments:

    "I have a theory that the force of existence is infinite" - sounds cool but what do you mean?

    There are very different ideas about what God is. There is the miracle God from the Bible and other religious stories and other religions, and then there is the more simple, logical God that is dealt with in philosophy where people are dealing with certain properties that God could have, like knowing everything, that would lead to certain conclusions about the world. All I really mean to say is that God is a very ambiguous word that means different things to defferent people.

    As for the whole proof problem, it's generally accepted that nothing can be absolutely proven (except maybe that "I" exist or something exists). It is obvious that people are not idiots that accept something that isn't absolutely proven. All you can hope for, is a general feeling that it is right, an absolute proof based on fundamental facts that you chose to be fundamental, a testable prediction that ended up being right, many different methods showing one result, and stuff like that. Like Flipton said, it comes down to what you or others want to consider proof.

    As for the nothing from something problem, there are quite a few threads on this subject so I won't get into too much detail, but I have some thought about it that may apply to the "disproving" certain types of concepts. The concept of nothing is negatively defined. It's based on what it isn't. These theories are generally, in my opinion, weaker, worse, and less likely to be true, though good thought experiments. Theories in the negatively defined category is the Mind in dualism, completely made up of non-matter stuff, free will based on non-determined and non-randomness, nothing based on non-something. Obviously because they are negatively defined doesn't mean that they don't exist, but I think it is a good rule kind of like Occum's Razor.
    Is the proof of God slipping into the negatively defined category?
     
  10. Apr 20, 2005 #9

    Pengwuino

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    In my opinion, the only people who know if theres a God are dead so unless anyone has a plan on bringing them back from the dead, i dont think this idea is very debatable.
     
  11. Apr 20, 2005 #10

    cronxeh

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    so what if there is god in afterlife?

    he is gonna punish you?

    think in terms of logic. what if i dont want to live more than i would (say.. 75-85 years - right now im 20)

    what if i dont want to live more than 80? did anyone bother asking about my opinion? who does god think he is that i would live eternally??
     
  12. Apr 20, 2005 #11
    http://www.altelco.net/~churches/ProofOfGod.htm
    the above link if you read it all will lead you to some interesting scientific measurements about the Earth that coincidence are less than the the chance
    of winning the lottery of having occured in forming the Earth to be habitable for
    life as we know it as far as scientific measurements are concerned.

    the holy bible states that God is the Alpha-Omega! He always existed and always
    will exist. He was NOT created! He is infinite. We cannot and will never comprehend
    everything about God as we have finite minds; His is infinite in ways we will Never
    understand. One way is He exists at ALL times, and Any time.

    the last reader states that he does not want to live past 75-85 years! Well,
    I suppose THAT could be arranged!

    Who does God think He is that I would live eternally? Well, I for one accept His Son,
    Jesus Christ as my Savior, God's only Son, which God gave us in His grace as my
    Savior and by faith I have eternal life guarenteed!

    Faith you say?

    Yes Faith. We accept by faith all kinds of axioms or postulates all the time in
    proving all kinds of theories in mathematics and physics as well as reaching
    any kind of decision in life! No matter if we are atheists or not!!!

    Read Hebrew Chapter 11 to get some idea of what Faith is all about!!!

    Actually Read and Re-read the entire Holy Bible and apply it to your life for
    a while to see it reap rewards before you decide that you want to go to hell!!!!!!!!

    its pretty hot there from what i read!

    And believe whether you want to believe it or not. Do you really want to take the
    chance. Besides, can you imagine, if no one believed and applied the principles
    as described and taught in the Holy Bible? Let us just take one as taught by Jesus.

    "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

    Would it not be nice if everyone just did this?

    I really do NOT want anyone to go to hell!!!

    Heaven is NOT a boring place. YOU will live in BLISS there and NEVER be bored,
    with a perfect body and mind with many brothers and sisters and have
    a truly great time! Do join me someday, when I am truly nice! You will NOT
    be in an aged or sick or painful in anyway body as you might be in your
    Earthly life!

    love and peace,
    and,
    peace and love,
    (kirk) kirk gregory czuhai
    owner/ceo
    Heaven Sense
    http://HeavenSense.WS
    http://Czuhai.WS
    http://Allendale.WS
    http://LittleHoney.WS
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2005
  13. Apr 20, 2005 #12
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2005
  14. Apr 20, 2005 #13
    The problem with the whole "our environment is perfect for us" idea, is that it practically draws the assumption that if earth did not exist the way that it does, "nothing" would exist the way that it does. Of course this is true for us, because if the earth was not the way that it is, we would not exist. At least not the way that we do.

    OF COURSE the earth "seems" perfect to us. We have adapted to its environment. We are a result of this environment. The fact that a life sustaining planet is "near" impossible, does not mean that it is in fact "impossible". It is very possible that there are billions of other life sustaining planets in our universe. Maybe even our own galaxy. They might not even sustain life "as we know it". but I can assure you, if the life on another planet has intelligence equivalent to ours, they probably believe that their planet is "near impossible" and that another life sustaining planet cannot exist.

    This alone renders the whole "our planet is perfect for us" theory useless.

    Just because I like my coffee with sugar and creme does not mean that some god created coffee, cows and sugar cane for the sole purpose of me grinding the coffee beans, the sugar cane and milking the cow, only to mix them up into a delightful cup of Joe.

    I simply take something that is already there, and take advantage of it. This is what we do. We take the environment that is here, and we take advantage of it.

    It only makes sense that if our existence depended on inhaling large quantities of carbon monoxide, that we would likely not exist. At least not on this planet.
     
  15. Apr 20, 2005 #14
    Beautifully put, Sintwar.
     
  16. Apr 20, 2005 #15
    Kirk, just because I am an atheist doesn't mean I don't know what faith is all about. That's a mistake believers make frequently in these discussions. I was a seeker for many years and studied many belief systems. I daresay I know more about religion than you do. Hebrews 11 is not the final word on 'what faith is all about.' It is after years of study and thought (certainly more than most believers) I've come to my position.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2005
  17. Apr 20, 2005 #16
    Here is what blows my mind. Some people base their atheism solely because it is unfathomable and they believe it can't be. Some of these people believe though that, due to quantum mech., an elctron in their body could be orbiting around the moon. Also a car could hit a wall, but its particles miss every other particle in the wall. It could then appear unscathed on the other side of the wall. Also their beleif in the Big Bang. How do you fit all of the matter in the universe into a neutron sized space? There can't be a "zero time" in the Universe can there? The "Blob" could not appear at (1/infinity) seconds with all the matter, can it? If this is what you believe happened how does it seem so impossible that there can be a god?
    Also God (in the christian belief, maybe Jew and Muslim as well), does not want to give complete, undenieble proof. If He did where would the faith be? All the proof that the respective religons need are the Bible, Torah, and Quran.
    Personally I believe God works His wonders through science. Obviously physics is a part of our everyday life. But He needs something to govern His works. He simplified his creation of the universe for early man. They would have been confused if he had told them about the chemical reactions needed to create amino acids and organic compounds. He told them it took six days. In what I understand of Hebrew, a day can stand for any amount of time.
     
  18. Apr 20, 2005 #17
    Here is what blows my mind. every theist bases his/her/its theism solely on a book/scroll/tablet, etc. written by man thousands of years ago, preached by man and force fed by man.

    If I may ask you. Do you still believe in santa clause? If you do not, can you please explain to me why you do not? If your anwser is no, can you also please explain to me why you still believe in god as well?

    If you answered yes... well... good luck to ya with that one... :uhh:

    Atheists do not base their lack of belief on the idea that there is something "unfathomable and they believe it can't be". They base it on the lack of evidence that there is pointing to that unfathomable something.

    Not to mention the history of the theistic ways. Brutality to force people to believe in something they don't. Amazing things that supposedly happened in front of everyone a mere few thousand years ago, but all of the sudden technology explodes, TV, radio and the internet are born, and BAM. all of the amazing miracles stop. coincidence? Perhaps it is that now we have more than story books to base our beliefs on.


    Some people will not believe ANYTHING that you tell them no matter what it is. Those kind of people will argue with you to the death that "a red light might not really mean stop."

    Most atheists will ultimately settle on believing "something" if there are enough facts backing it up. Like the fact that a red light does in fact mean "stop".



    I can very easily turn that around on you. What is more believable about god going *poof* than the universe going bang? The biggest difference here is that we can see the universe. We cannot see god.



    If the religious writings are such great "proof" as you would have it, then why is it that their writings are constantly being proven wrong? They actually have to keep modifying the religious writings to keep up with science!

    The earth is flat : Wrong!
    The entire earth was flooded : Wrong!
    A man fit 2 of every animal in the world on a tiny wooden ship. : ROFL This isn't even worth arguing about.
    The earth is the center of the universe : VERY Wrong.
    The sun, moon and stars were placed in the sky to light the earth : Extremely Wrong!

    The list goes on, and it gets longer almost every day.

    The bible, and every other religious writing out there is nothing more than fairy tales, and there is more than enough "proof" to back that up.

    My suggestion would be to throw away your 2,000 year old fairy tale book, and start writing your own based on your own personal experiences and miracles from god.


    The people 2,000 years ago were not stupid by any means. You suggest that they were complete bumbling idiots. They were just as intelligent as us, just not educated. They had not invented the tools needed to aid our understanding of the world as it truly is. And of course anyone who DID realize this, and tried to explain it, was commonly executed for being a witch or a scorcerer sent by the devil. :eek:

    I can tell you that I used to be a die hard christian. I preached the word of god everywhere I went, and I have been "saved" several times.

    I know what it means to be a theist. And now that I know what it means to be free, I cannot believe how ignorant I was. Of course it didn't help that I was raised and forced to go to church as a child. My entire life I have had god shoved down my throat.

    The difference now is that I can think for myself, and realizing what I have, my mind has opened to an infinite amount of possibilities. I no longer feel enslaved, powerless and weak. I no longer live my life in fear, feeling like I have to walk on eggshells, or be punished for eternity. I also no longer base my beliefs on brainwashing mumbo jumbo.

    I am an atheist, and my life is a billion times more beautiful than it ever was as a theist. My existence has a billion times more meaning than it did when I was a theist.

    As an atheist, my existence is the most amazing thing that I can possibly imagine. The existence of 1 tiny grain of sand sparks my imagination and I am amazed that it exists.

    There is no true happiness for the theist. There is only hatred, fear, war, violence, slavery and judgement.
     
  19. Apr 20, 2005 #18
    Oh, let's not forget the fun things like:

    --it's okay to own slaves and pass them on to your children
    --it's okay to sell you daughter into slavery
    --if someone works on the sabbath he should be killed
    etc.

    Kirk said read Hebrews to learn what faith is all about. I say read Leviticus to see just how screwy your faith is.

    Oh, wait...I guess it's okay to choose *which parts* of the sacred text you pay attention to. My bad...
     
  20. Apr 21, 2005 #19

    Math Is Hard

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    It shouldn't blow your mind because it's just not true. Not everyone who is a theist is a member of a religion.
     
  21. Apr 21, 2005 #20
    True. The theists belief that atheists don't know what faith is. Yes, we do. The proble,m is that one, that we know so much what it is, that we realise it is ilogical and incoherent. Believing your friend (example) died because god said so, isn't going to give you your friend back, or to help you push forward, if humanity isn't further thatn it is, it obviously the guilt of the roman chirtina church.

    and if this is going to become a thread about who is more bad: science or religion. I can already asure you all that church is way worst.
     
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