This is my first post here. I am glad I found this forum. Ok about that subject. I was thinking to myself this weekend about the idea of god. (I am an atheist) And thinking like an atheist/science fan (I say "fan" because I am definitely no guru), I am always trying to come up with ideas to dis-prove gods existence. Although it is pretty hard to dis-prove something that has never been proven to begin with. I am sure this has been thought of before, but I thought of it myself this weekend. It includes 3 elements: Existence - god - everything else Existence. The essence of all that is, was and shall be. Existence is the purest form of any force, because without it, nothing would exist. Including existence its self. Because of this, I have a theory that the force of existence is infinite. This theory is based on the fact that existence could not exist without existence. With that in mind, lets move onto the god thing. If god exists, he exists under the rules of existence. Meaning that even god cannot exist without the force of existence. God cannot have created existence, because he would have to exist first to create it. And because he cannot exist without existence, he is not the ultimate power. Existence is above him. If existence were to cease to exist, so would everything else. Including god. So my conclusion is that if existence could create god -> (I use the term "create" loosley. Much in the same way that gravity (and a series of other factors) "creates" diamonds from coal. It is simply an "effect" of its presence.) It could also create the universe, everything in it, and then some without the need of "god". This theory of course does not dis-prove god. It does however render him useless in a sense. The idea of god is that he is all powerful. If god has no power over his own existence, he is not all powerful. The problem with this theory is of course: The idea that "God IS existence"...(Those theists have an answer for everything don't they! Its too bad its always the same answer!) I am still working on thinking of a theory for that one. If anyone has any input, please feel free to add to this.