God vs Big Brother

  1. What can I say? It seems like that's what so many of the arguments in the God & Religion section "really" boil down to. The "god" of science versus the God of religion. Anyone catch my drift?

    For example let's take the idea of free will. This is an inherent doctrine of the Christian Church, and yet science tends to relegate it as some useless appendage of the past, in that it's too unpredictable, too sloppy, and tends to interfere with all of its nice, tidy, neat little arguments ... Reality is to be "observed" (hence "no will") versus reality needs to be "experienced" (hence "a will") ...

    And what's the deal with the educational system? It seems it's sole purpose is to put out "pre-programmed" little robots, to better serve "the machine" as a whole (what we now call society). It's all about doing what you're told, getting with the curriculum, and stuffing your brain full of useless information that you may or may not ever get to use. Does anybody ever ask the kids what they think? Or, what they want out of life? No wonder the kids are rebelling!

    Whereas for those that manage to get through "the guantlet," and get good grades, no sooner than they graduate that Big Brother comes along snatches them up, and puts them to "good use" as scientists and engineers in the "Artificial Intelligence" arena, by which to further extend the outreach of "the machine."

    As for those who aren't quite so lucky, and in their rebellion insist on exercising their "free will," well they get thrown into prison or get locked up in our mental institutions, by which they learn the meaning of "constraint." We'll have no aberrant behavior around here. Watch out ... Big Brother is watching!

    So what's the difference between Big Brother telling us what to do and the God of religion telling us what to do? Anyone hear the sheep bleating? Baaaah ... Baaaah ...
  2. jcsd
  3. russ_watters

    Staff: Mentor

    You seem to be connecting the government with the pursuit of science and the persecution (or downplaying) of religion. No.
  4. Where does science by the way, get so much of its funding, if not through the educational system and the government?
  5. megashawn

    megashawn 496
    Science Advisor

    You've got to be kidding. I'm a prime example of what your talking about, and I must say, you are quite wrong.

    The ONLY problem with the education system is the fact that we are still trying to work out all the BS religous habits that have be enforced for so long. Although religion and government are supposed to be separate, they are not. If the government was so pro science anti-religion as you make them out to be, then we'd all have clones running around doing our work for us so that we could sit around and watch Court TV. If you think they are seperate, next time your in a court room, take a look at the lil black book you have to swear on.

    And to answer your question, yes. If there is a Big Brother, and machine that you refer to, and the only way to live a decent life is to become part of this system, then absolutly. You see, the difference that you are over looking is the simple fact that God, is to date, nothing more then an imaginary creature. Big Brother on the other hand, would be a physical entity, be it a government, or elite group of rich people. You see, big brother exists, and while it may control a good part of life, it still can't drive fast enough to keep up with me down a curvy road, hence, I have all the free will I want.

    You really cannot compare the two. Its like comparing Apples to Hot Pink Strawberries. There is no real reason hot pink strawberries can't exist, and certainly cannot rule out the possibility, but to date, none have been able to provide evidence to there existance. Any further speculation is rather pointless.
  6. Phobos

    Phobos 1,982
    Staff Emeritus
    Science Advisor
    Gold Member

    AFAIK, science has nothing against free will. Not sure where you are getting this perception.

    Education = good.
    Educating millions of people = difficult.
    The government is (hopefully) doing the best it can.
    Feel free to try "home schooling". That's allowed too.
    So is dropping out, but you'll regret it later.

    Well, it is funded by "society" isn't it? :wink:
    But seriously, I can understand how students may get this perception, but having been on both sides (school, post-school, and even a speck of teaching myself), I really don't think this is the case.
    "Society" is just a collection of individuals. All the teachers I have met wanted to have bright/creative/perceptive students, not robot slaves.

    Again, teaching large numbers of people is difficult. Some order is imposed in order to get something done. There are schools out there with less strict, proceed-at-your-own-pace regimens, if you are interested.

    Useless? Consider the state of humanity before public education and compare it to today. Consider the state of a third world country where most people are without educations.

    "Useless information" - - Studying the facts, even if you forget the details, gives you context and a sense of what is out there. You are learning how to learn and how to deal with the world effectively. You are broadening your horizons and paying tribute to those who passed before you and enriched your life (art, medicine, agriculture, technology, etc.). You are improving the odds that your children and grandchildren will live better lives.

    ok, I'm babbling/ranting...


    Yikes. I seem to recall voluntarily applying for a job at a company of my choosing...

    Only if they break laws (which are established and enforced by majorities of individuals...at least in the US) or harm other people. No foul in being eccentric. Some people live quite well by that lifestyle.

    Y'know, when I was in high school/college, I had a bit of an anarchist in me too. But one day I hope you will see that you are a lot freer than you think you are.

    (man, this is one of my corniest posts!)
  7. Hey, you don't need to associate my theorising that free will is an illusion with science as a whole. The method itself does not make any judgements.

    Ok, now to put my slant onto this. I am saying that what we call free will is a collection of our experiences and instincts, which manifest ourselves in our actions. Rather, we are all self programming robots. It makes no difference whether you get a degree or spend your life watching TV. Consciousness itself is about taking in programming from around you. If you do not programe, leave a blank or instinctual mind, you do not get a free mind. You get an useless mind. Hardware without software, so to speak.
    To draw on the robot analogy, society is a network of individuals united by common programming. So yes, society does program us. Stay in one long enough, and you pick up it's customs, rules, ways things work. That is in a way programming. That is unavoidable, except by the most extreme isolation. And that would lead perhaps to anarchy. So education, giving people the experiences to make "willed" decisions and actions that the programming of ordinary life does not allow, is programming. What's wrong with that?

    We will meet in the room where there is no darkness...

    Our education, or I guess programming system is designed not to influence their career decisions in that way. Big brother does not snatch them up. Rather, we let their mind, the accumulation of there experiences and inborn instincts decide. And the machine in this case has nothing to do with big brother. Rather, by my idea, we are all machines.

    Society is something that forms logically. Any number of people together will begin to harmonise their thoughts and form a group. And that group encompasses more groups, and more experiences. Society is a sort of collective mind in that respect. The way we perceive dictates that you can only be in a society that you feel you belong to. Your experiences say so. A feeling of home?

    No. Except that we are big brother. Society is a way where we self program. God is a way where we seek programming from outside, where it may well not exist, but instead simply end up just trying to justify programming we may already have. Science is a way where we can really seek out new knowledge. Make actual progress. Get new programming and experiences to live our lives differently. God is a static entity. Science is one that offers change.

    Hey, everybody wants an upgrade...
  8. The real difference between the religious free will and the non religious free will is this, your free will has consequences, more so then mine. If I sin, there is no consequences for me, whereas there is for you, this really limits your free will, although not to the point of it not existing. As was said before, its a free will of doing one good or another. My free will is limited by the law, based on sentimentalism, which I do not agree with, but that's another story. So basically your free will is limited by your mind, breaking the law, and God's laws. Mine is limited by societies laws.

    The goal is to educate children so they can live, and someday support a family. It seems, aside from the religious person, that people like knowledge, and they need it to get a job. Sixteen years of education isn't fun, but if there was an easier alternative for the kids it would be implemented, but its just not practical for a 5 year old to learn Calculus. Another goal is to help the child learn his full potential...not to breed him. An example would be the diversity of career fields: one could willingly choose, for example, to be a factory worker, a farmer, a doctor, an athlete, a programmer, etc. all of which require at least some schooling for the comprehension purposes.

    If every child chose science as his career then this would merit attention, but not every one does, so this is a personal opinion, wrong as it may be.

    Religion also falls under this category, only difference is the religious one doesn't stuff very hard.

    Imagine your child going through life talking like a 5 year old, as would be a reasonable limit to grammatical understanding without education.

    Ask the child if he wants a cookie or peas, more often than not the child will choose the cookie, the child shows no understanding of the long-term consequences. They cannot always know what is best for them, as an adult knows that an education is best.

    Also, the school asks very often what the students think, the principal and assistant principals offices are always open, willing to hear any suggestions.

    I doubt any one of them would say they want to grow up to be an unintelligent, unemployed, homeless person. And we aren't rebelling, we are expressing ourselves in different ways, which comes as a harsh [often unaccepted] change to adults

    I hear them They are right outside my window.

    I found it very ironic you would choose sheep for your example...seeing as how the metaphor for the relationship between God and his followers is, "He is the shepherd and we are the sheep."
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2003
  9. Wow! This is way too much to digest at once. I didn't realize I was going to strike at the heart of everybody's education? Well, perhaps it's best I put on a pair of good sandals, get one or two of my best slings, and start scrounging for some suitable rocks? I'm sure I can find a few around here somewhere.

    But let me start by asking a couple of questions. Are any of you from afluent homes? For I think most will agree that money can play a big factor in the "quality" of education one gets. Did any of you inherit your education from your parents? Indeed it can make a big difference on whether you're apt to experience the same "ill-effects" that others might experience, with all the drivel put out by the educational system nowadays ...
  10. haha...you woke the sleeping dragon(s):wink:

    I didn't come from an affluent home; we weren't impecunious, though. Neither of my parents went to college, so I did not have the opportunity to inherit much, I also don't believe I did.

    I believe you see so much "drivel" in our educational system because it does not teach religion, or more importantly, it does teach evolution/science.

    Although, you may find this interesting, I home-schooled until I entered second grade, at which time I was put in a Christian school (not Catholic), I graduated grade school at this Christian school and entered a public high school. I was not influenced at all the first 3 years of my high school education by nonreligious people, although, my senior year I developed a love for the stars, which naturally led to sciences, physics, evolution...I then investigated the origins and logic of God and I truely found it to be impossible, undirecting, and inconsistent, I decided to try 100 days of atheism and about a week into I truely became an atheist. I have had all three kinds of education, and the public school has proved most promising and helpful in my life. A Christian education breeds children much more so than a public education.
  11. yep, much of our schools are breading sheeple.

  12. So, how did you come about your education? Were your parents well off? Or, were they helpful in that they were supportive in helping you further your education? Is so, could it be possible you might be overlooking a few things?
    Actually I'm not sure I agree with putting religion into the schools, although I have heard stories to the opposite effect, that children don't suffer so much from a "lack of discipline." But, if that were to mean being "brainwashed" into being submissive, I suppose that could be a problem.
    Just a mere formality. While I wonder how many lawyers would actually say they believed in God? I somehow suspect it would be "very few," you know, with playing the "Devil's Advocate" all day long ...
    Or, perhaps it would be best to get out of Germany before the Nazi's know you're missing?
    Really? And how long have you been under this delusion? ...
    Yeah, but then there's the old "two-way."
    Actually I think it's all predicated upon belief, and when you get right down to it, you can belive just about anything you like. And what did you say you believed?
  13. what if..

    god is big brother.
    that explains everything if you read the bible carefully.
    big brother is the scientist. god keeps saying that he is the only one and he is a jelouse god. he also likes to watch us.
  14. Re: what if..

    Wow.....that explains everything.[zz)]

    This scientific God doesn't hold up very well against science:smile: Christian scientists dedicate their whole lives to proving real science wrong, this is the only science Christians, hence God, have.
  15. Yes, but when everything is predicated strictly upon "the observation," and anything else which smacks of emotion, will or "subjectivity" is considered totally irrelevant, then I would say yes, science does have a problem with what we call "free will."
    I'm afraid the school system isn't much more than a highly priced baby sitter, at least for young people anyway. And what good is a diploma if all it is a piece of paper?
    Yes, through our tax dollars via the US government.
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions ...
    I'm not saying it isn't easy to teach large numbers of people. But what I'd like to know is why should we be forced into education in the first place? Who the hell has the right to tell me how to think or act anyway? I mean so long as I don't break the rules of "common sense," who cares?
    A lot has changed with the school system even in the past 20-30 years, most of which hasn't been good.
    Learning by rote is not the best way to teach anything, unless your purpose is to create "conformity." And there you have your good little robots.
  16. This is more a general observation on my part.
    Would you say experience is the most important factor here? But where is the master program? Or, does the whole process occur at random?
    There's nothing wrong with living within certain guidelines, but if by living by those guidelines is all that life entails, then I would suggest something is seriously wrong. That in fact we have become “robots.” And yet who sets the guidelines for the educational system? What makes them so infallible?
    Missed that one? ...
    In other words we let what they've been pre-programmed to accept decide which, of course leads back to the origin of he who pulls societies strings, Big Brother, in which case he does snatch them up.
    Hey that’s nice. Do you believe in peer pressure too?
    Yes we are Big Brother, because Big Brother has assimilated "one and all."
    You mean the latest version of Big Brother? Yeah, I gotta have it!
  17. My free will is based upon what I understand, by which I act accordingly. Nor am I by any means a "pre-programmed" Christian.
    I think ultimately it's up to the child to decide, and that we should give them all the tools necessary for making that decision.
    Science isn't necessarily a wrong answer. Just so long as the child has a genuine interest it.
    Used to be people learned by reading the Bible, for that was the only book available.
    Yes but how often are they given a chance to really express themselves? Parents can be just as guilty as the school system in this respect.
    But who wants to go to the principal's office?
    While I doubt any one of them would say they want to grow up to be a drug addict. No, they really are rebelling, against the whole mindlessness of being there in the first place.
    It's called follow the leader ...

  18. Yes and no. There is of course inborn programming - our instincts, carried genetically. You can call that the master program, if you like. But rather, in my mind, there is no difference between experiences and programming. All of our experiences control us. It make us what we are. Form brings essence?
    Think on this. If you lived completely different a life, would you even be the same person? I think not.

    That is not seriously wrong. Rather, by my idea, there is no alternative. We can only be robots, but slaves not to a "master" but to the world around us. Guidelines exist everywhere. Why do you disagree with me? I say a self-imposed program saying so, based on what you have experienced. The educational guidelines are certainly not infallible. But nothing is. Even if you keep people in a sealed room, there is still instincts to influence that. Perhaps what we see as educating "good manners" today will be seen as brainwashing by another generation? The only meterstick is that of the observer.

    Oh... quote from 1984.

    Except there is no one origin. If you adopt a holistic view of society, then Big brother is the collective will, which manifesrts itself in government. But government itself is not big brother. Rather, there is nothing but strings all the way up. Nobody is the controller. We all self-program.

    Yes I do. So? We are big brother. Way things work. Peer pressure is an indicator of natural systems tending to harmonics. Big brother superstructures may automatically form.
  19. megashawn

    megashawn 496
    Science Advisor

    For one, I do not have a complete education. The only thing I have is a Comunications cert. I'm still in the process of comleting my education, but things take time when you our of limited resources. The things I've accomplished, are due in part to my efforts once I turned 16. I've had a little help, as in free rent, but then again nothing is free.

    But on a side note, I do not need to go to school to learn something. While above I mentioned one certification, I've learned enough to have a dozen or more, in various fields. All one must do to learn something is take iniative and do it.

    I figured someone would pull the "what do you believe" card on me, since I've been leaking a little bit of sillyness. But see, the difference here is that I know what I believe is silly, while you are in denial. Not the place for me to get into what I believe. Maybe I'll get something together in the future.

    And you reference to getting out of Germany before the Nazi's is rather silly. Big Brother, as I understand it is essentially the government. I do not feel I owe much to the government, as it's not done much to help me. Honestly, the government has only made my path more difficult. But hey, thats life. My only point is that "Big Brother" is a true and existing entity. The christian god as I said, is only an imaginary creature. Not one person can show otherwise. There is no reason an all powerfull being couldn't provide concrete evidence to his existance. He created us, and does not know how to convince us.
  20. You present some very good arguments FZ+ and I appreciate that. But it's all a bunch of "collective nonsense."

    The only way a society can truly function, without some form of tyrrany taking over (although it seems we become the masters of our own downfall anyway), is by means of a "parity check" which, can only be accomplished through the individual, and all the rights (and freedoms) associated with it. I just don't see your brand of "Socialism" providing that.
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2003
  21. It's not a brand of socialism. Rather, it's the way I speculate all societies neccessarily work. Rather, there is no alternative.

    Tyranny or not, all governments are manifestations of the collective will of the people. They are what the people in general want. The parity check is built in, because the society is a dynamic body that is the network of individuals. Rather, the concepts of rights themselves, and the value we put to our particular set, in based on instinctual and environmental experience. Even a tyranny can only exist if the people are happy with it existing. If the power base exists. Society provides these freedoms because we want them. And we make up society. Do you see?

    BTW, I'll point out this is just an idea I am developing. A bit of follow assumption "no free will except from random experiences" to logical consequence.
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2003
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