Good Manners: What We All Know

[gravenewworld]

Trust me, the "fork test" works. The men that pass it have always been absolutely wonderful.

Hmm are we implying about me here? I have to give all the credit to my mom though.

 

[motai]

Stay away from Brits. THis left-handed, upside-down fork methodology is standard practice there; quite proper, I might add. Another thing I had to unlearn from my own mum.

I never really understood the left-handed, upside-down fork thing that Evo was mentioning. Mostly becuase I have never noticed it myself, or wasn't paying attention to everyone else's fork habits.

The upside-down thing is a little odd to me. I don't see any potential advantages to having it upside-down. Why is it done?

 

[Evo]

I never really understood the left-handed, upside-down fork thing that Evo was mentioning. Mostly becuase I have never noticed it myself, or wasn't paying attention to everyone else's fork habits.

The upside-down thing is a little odd to me. I don't see any potential advantages to having it upside-down. Why is it done?

I take it you are a right handed, right side up fork person?

If so, I rest my case.

 

[Evo]

Hmm are we implying about me here? I have to give all the credit to my mom though.

You pass the "fork test". It is all passed down through our moms, isn't it? I learned from my mom, and passed it down to my girls. But the thing is...IT WORKS!

 

[quantumdude]

Trust me, the "fork test" works. The men that pass it have always been absolutely wonderful.

Mmm-hmmm. And your current man, he has passed "The Fork Test"? :tongue:

 

[Mk]

I don't know this fork business. I must be uncouth.

I don't know either, but I think I understand where its coming from. It seems like if you were hungrier or wanted to eat faster, you would eat fork down, whereas if you were a refined gentleman, you would eat fork up.

No, only formal dining. I eat ribs and chicken like a pig.

I think eating fried chicken with a fork and knife is wrong (my relatives do that). Some foods just require full frontal attacks with the teeth. Gnawing food off the bone is wonderful.

I eat ribs with a fork and knife, while fried chicken deserves the full frontal assault.

KFC is one of the most rapidly expanding buisnesses in Thailand, they are all very busy. When I dined at KFC in Thailand, I noticed everybody except me was eating with a fork and knife. I wonder what they thought of me. I never thought about how many ate fork up or fork down, left hand or right hand.

 

[photon]

when your on the phone with a girl, say "yeah" or "huh" every now and then. almost makes it sound like your listenining

 

[Evo]

Mmm-hmmm. And your current man, he has passed "The Fork Test"? :tongue:

My most recent. Yes, he has. Even the Italian Stallion from Chicago that was from a working class family passed. Only one guy I went out on a date with failed, and someone set me up with him. I seem to be able to pick winners from a distance.

 

[Moonbear]

-Assuming you are right handed after you cut a piece of meat, put the knife down and out of your right hand and switch the fork to your right hand and then eat. Too many times people just cut and eat with the fork still in their left hand.

My understanding is that switching hands like that is an American thing and not a table manners thing. Nobody I know from Europe does that. There's no need to switch hands back and forth, that just seems silly. I worry about more basic things like chewing with your mouth closed, leaving the cell phone off when you enter a restaurant, talking at an appropriate volume that your dinner date can hear you but the rest of the customers cannot.

Oh, as for those who hold doors for the ladies, keep in mind that rule only applies in social situations, not business situations. You are supposed to treat women equally as men in a business situation, which means whoever gets to the door first can hold it for the next person (don't let it slam in their face), but there's no gender distinction there.

As for whether the gentleman stands on the curb side or building side of the sidewalk, Evo is correct that it depends upon where you are. If it is a dangerous city, the gentleman walks on the building side to protect the lady from would-be muggers, but if you are off on a country lane, the gentleman walks toward the road side to protect the lady from would-be mud splashing from passing vehicles. I think this rule alone is enough to convince the gentlemen they should all become feminists and put an end to such silly rules.

 

[Moonbear]

I just started a new job and had lunch with two people there that I think are fairly sharp. One guy was shoveling food into his mouth with his fork upside down and in his left hand like he was shoveling dirt into a pit, and the other was cramming huge amounts of food into his mouth so that his cheeks were bulging as he chewed. I was about to vomit.

Okay, I'm really unable to figure this one out. How do you "shovel" with a fork upside down? Wouldn't the fork have to be right side up to be shoveling with it?

I guess I am terrible for feeling this way, but I was raised to eat slowly and politely, it wasn't a race to the death. I think people in large families where food was scarce have the tendency to shovel food into their mouth. I've heard that from some people, either you stuffed yourself as fast as possible, or went hungry.

It's funny, this came up as dinner conversation with the crowd I was with tonight. We were with a large group and someone suddenly realized one person still had her plate nearly full when the rest of us were done eating, so commented that she must be the one doing all the talking. But the person who noticed is Asian and then was explaining that it took some getting accustomed to eating with her American husband's family because they just all fill their plates to the brim on the first pass through, while in her Asian family, you only take a small portion of food and make sure everyone else has some before you take any more, and if there's a guest, they always get the food if there is only one serving left, etc. It all sounded like reasonable etiquette to me, but I know what she means about the people who heap their plates to the top without consideration of who else is waiting after them. Also, my grandparents both came from large families, and I can't stand eating with them. They eat like a pack of animals on that side of the family, as if they are afraid someone is going to steal their food if they don't eat quickly enough. :yuck: I'll still be working on my salad, and they'll have scarfed down the entire meal and be looking for dessert! Thankfully my dad's side of the family was more particular about etiquette so I learned proper table manners.

 

[juvenal]

As for whether the gentleman stands on the curb side or building side of the sidewalk, Evo is correct that it depends upon where you are. If it is a dangerous city, the gentleman walks on the building side to protect the lady from would-be muggers, but if you are off on a country lane, the gentleman walks toward the road side to protect the lady from would-be mud splashing from passing vehicles. I think this rule alone is enough to convince the gentlemen they should all become feminists and put an end to such silly rules.

In LA, we worry about drive-by shootings, so the lady is best on the building side.

 

[Evo]

My understanding is that switching hands like that is an American thing and not a table manners thing. Nobody I know from Europe does that. There's no need to switch hands back and forth, that just seems silly.

Actually my mother is French. Very refined. My Aunt and Uncle are a Count and Countess and own a very beautiful well known 14th century castle in France. I was raised with Aristrocratic manners. gravenworld is absolutely correct in what he wrote. I've known that all my life.

Perhaps aristocratic table manners are too much to expect? I believe Miss Manners suggested these as correct.

 

[gerben]

My understanding is that switching hands like that is an American thing and not a table manners thing. Nobody I know from Europe does that. There's no need to switch hands back and forth, that just seems silly.

Yes, that is apparently the difference. I was somewhat amazed when I read the responses in this thread approving of switching knife and fork while eating. I have seen people do this, and I guess now that they were probably mostly Americans. I always thought that they did that because of a lack of manual dexterity, just like little children who also try to refuse to use their left hand as much as possible.


I just “googled” it:

There are two ways to use a knife and fork to cut and eat your food. They are the American style and the European or Continental style. Either style is considered appropriate. In the American style, one cuts the food by holding the knife in the right hand and the fork in the left hand with the fork tines piercing the food to secure it on the plate. Cut a few bite-size pieces of food, then lay your knife across the top edge of your plate with the sharp edge of the blade facing in. Change your fork from your left to your right hand to eat, fork tines facing up. (If you are left-handed, keep your fork in your left hand, tines facing up.) The European or Continental style is the same as the American style in that you cut your meat by holding your knife in your right hand while securing your food with your fork in your left hand. The difference is your fork remains in your left hand, tines facing down, and the knife in your right hand. Simply eat the cut pieces of food by picking them up with your fork still in your left hand.

http://www.bsu.edu/students/careers/students/interviewing/dining/

 

[Moonbear]

Actually my mother is French. Very refined. My Aunt and Uncle are a Count and Countess and own a very beautiful well known 14th century castle in France. I was raised with Aristrocratic manners. gravenworld is absolutely correct in what he wrote. I've known that all my life.

Perhaps aristocratic table manners are too much to expect? I believe Miss Manners suggested these as correct.

Perhaps if I had the king and queen of some country or another over for dinner I might concern myself with aristocratic manners, but such formality is too stiff for friends. I do know not to drink out of the finger bowl though, even if it's flavored with lemon and there's a spoon nearby.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Stay away from Brits. THis left-handed, upside-down fork methodology is standard practice there; quite proper, I might add. Another thing I had to unlearn from my own mum.

I've seen this before and they seem very proper about it. I would think that Evo would give a pass to someone if they did so in an elegant fashion.

Street side or building side: I was told that the reason for this was that at one time when a man walked down the street with a woman towards the street it was because he was showing her off to prospective customers. I did though have a friend who was quite sure to stand on the street side to protect the lady from traffic.

I've found that paying for your date, at least in the first date, is generally a good idea. Adding to this I was once told that if you are out with a lady and one of her lady friends for cocktails you should pay for both of their drinks, at least the first round. I've done this and it was received rather well.

If you order a bottle or there is a table bottle you should pour for the lady. Be sure though that after the first or second glass you ask before pouring more, you don't want her to think you're trying to get her sauced.
Conversely if you are dining with Japanese people the lady or waitor/waitress is supposed to pour. I was out with some exchange students once and wasn't sure what to think when the pretty girl sitting next to me demanded, politely ofcourse, to pour my sapporo for me.
In some cultures and situations the youngest is supposed to pour.

 

[Townsend]

My Aunt and Uncle are a Count and Countess and own a very beautiful well known 14th century castle in France. I was raised with Aristrocratic manners.

Are you serious? I bet you're loaded... :!) I like a woman with some $$$

 

[Moonbear]

Yes, that is apparently the difference. I was somewhat amazed when I read the responses in this thread approving of switching knife and fork while eating. I have seen people do this, and I guess now that they were probably mostly Americans. I always thought that they did that because of a lack of manual dexterity, just like little children who also try to refuse to use their left hand as much as possible.

Yeah, I only became aware of the difference across continents on some occasion when I wasn't bothering to switch hands (I recall being in the dining hall in college, probably trying to eat quickly between classes), when someone sitting with me asked if I was European; when I asked why they thought that, they explained about the fork thing.

 

[Evo]

I do know not to drink out of the finger bowl though, even if it's flavored with lemon and there's a spoon nearby.

It's not lemon soup? Oh dear.

In Europe, the practise of keeping hands and elbows off the table doesn't work there. They want to see your hands above table to make sure you are not doing something naughty with them.

 

[Mk]

There are two ways to use a knife and fork to cut and eat your food. They are the American style and the European or Continental style. Either style is considered appropriate. In the American style, one cuts the food by holding the knife in the right hand and the fork in the left hand with the fork tines piercing the food to secure it on the plate. Cut a few bite-size pieces of food, then lay your knife across the top edge of your plate with the sharp edge of the blade facing in. Change your fork from your left to your right hand to eat, fork tines facing up. (If you are left-handed, keep your fork in your left hand, tines facing up.) The European or Continental style is the same as the American style in that you cut your meat by holding your knife in your right hand while securing your food with your fork in your left hand. The difference is your fork remains in your left hand, tines facing down, and the knife in your right hand. Simply eat the cut pieces of food by picking them up with your fork still in your left hand.

Sometimes it seems like there's rules and laws for everything. Even something as simple as eating.

Okay, I'm really unable to figure this one out. How do you "shovel" with a fork upside down? Wouldn't the fork have to be right side up to be shoveling with it?

Ferromagnetic fork, paramagnetic foodstuffs.

 

[Evo]

Are you serious? I bet you're loaded... :!) I like a woman with some $$$

Seriously, they are royalty. And have a castle, and are related to the Price of Wales and King William the 1st of England.

Does me absolutely no good.

 

[Moonbear]

Conversely if you are dining with Japanese people the lady or waitor/waitress is supposed to pour. I was out with some exchange students once and wasn't sure what to think when the pretty girl sitting next to me demanded, politely ofcourse, to pour my sapporo for me.
In some cultures and situations the youngest is supposed to pour.

I was told that in Japanese culture, you never pour drinks for yourself. You pour for the others at the table, and someone else pours for you. But I could be wrong about that one. If I run into one of my Japanese friends at this conference, I'll ask (I'm not sure if he's here this year though; I haven't seen him yet).

 

[Moonbear]

In Europe, the practise of keeping hands and elbows off the table doesn't work there. They want to see your hands above table to make sure you are not doing something naughty with them.

I was taught to rest your forearms or wrists on the edge of the table; you can see your hands above the table, but your elbows are off it. Darned uncomfortable if you ask me. If they don't want my elbows on the table or my hands in my lap, they ought to make the table padded!

 

[Townsend]

Does me absolutely no good.

That sux...I thought I had found another future ex Mrs. Townsend...

Townsend (is just joking around...mostly)

 

[stoned]

Seriously, they are royalty. And have a castle, and are related to the Price of Wales and King William the 1st of England.

Does me absolutely no good.

Wow ! you either drunk too much or watched too much TV.
by the way, what do they call you ? princess, baronness ?

 

[Monique]

YOU ARE CORRECT! I will break up with men that do not know this basic rule of dining etiquette. Also, the fork should not be upside down. I am horrified at how many people don't know how to eat.

Do you eat your sandwich with knife and fork? That is a basic rule of etiquette too. Would you break up if someone who eats his sandwich with his hands?

 

[Astronuc]

Stay away from Brits. THis left-handed, upside-down fork methodology is standard practice there; quite proper, I might add. Another thing I had to unlearn from my own mum.

Australians, too.

It is all passed down through our moms, isn't it? I learned from my mom, . . .

Well, my mom tried her best. I was just too recalcitrant.

No silverware, a smart move! I can eat potato salad with my fingers if need be. Licking the plate is also allowed.

OK, I can handle this.

Actually my mother is French. Very refined.

Your style and elegance shows.

Perhaps aristocratic table manners are too much to expect? I believe Miss Manners suggested these as correct.

Probably in my case. Miss Manners would probably faint in my presence.

On the other hand, I make a great guard dog. So not need to worry about muggers or purse snatchers. Just give me a bowl of water and a pat on the head, and I'm happy.

They eat like barbarians.

I could make a barbarian look civilized.

Actually, this is my problem - "Assuming you are right handed after you cut a piece of meat, put the knife down and out of your right hand and switch the fork to your right hand and then eat. Too many times people just cut and eat with the fork still in their left hand. " This is traditional British and Australian. However, I did learn to switch fork to right hand, but turn it upside down and use like a spoon - but delicately.

 

[Moonbear]

Actually, this is my problem - "Assuming you are right handed after you cut a piece of meat, put the knife down and out of your right hand and switch the fork to your right hand and then eat. Too many times people just cut and eat with the fork still in their left hand. " This is traditional British and Australian. However, I did learn to switch fork to right hand, but turn it upside down and use like a spoon - but delicately.

See, holding it in the direction that it could be used as a spoon seems like it's right side up to me. It always appears odd to me for someone to hold the fork the other way around, the way stuff would fall off easily if you didn't manage to fully stab it (I'm still trying to figure out how to eat crisp bacon with a fork...it's much easier to just grab a slice with your fingers, but when you're at a breakfast meeting, better etiquette seems required...scooping seems the only possible way).

 

[zanazzi78]

Actually, in the city, a man should walk on the inside. I learned the reason when I lived in Chicago and dated a very "streetwise" Italian. We were walkng on Rush Street and he insisted on walking on the inside, between me and the buildings. He explained that muggers and purse snatchers hid in the doorways and would grab at women, he wanted to put himself between me and possible harm. I had never even given any thought to it before then.

This is something my nan told me, the reason goes , if a car/ carrage! goes past and happens to go through a puddle the man would get soaked protecting the womans dress! i think it goes back to the victorian era when roads were full of potholes. But your Itallian guys reason is probably a little more upto date!

 

[motai]

Hmm.. wouldn't it be more logical if say, you were right handed and used the knife with the left hand, while maintaining the fork with the right hand? I'm sure that people don't have so little control with their left hand that they end up stabbing themselves or the person next to them. With this particular arrangement, there is no need to switch hands at all, so the process of eating is that much more efficient.

And I guess it can be adapted to upside-down usage, and can be reversed for left-handed people (knife on right hand, fork on left), though I personally don't see why an upside-down arrangement would be particularly useful in such a situation.

I have another idea. Eliminate the curvature of the fork so that there is no talk of all of this upside-down-up-frontside business. :tongue2:

 

[wolram]

From the wolram collection.


Formal Place Setting
Dining Etiquette
Table manners play an important part in making a favorable impression. They are visible signals of the state of our manners and therefore are essential to professional success. Regardless of whether we are having lunch with a prospective employer or dinner with a business associate, our manners can speak volumes about us as professionals.

Napkin Use

The meal begins when the host unfolds his or her napkin. This is your signal to do the same. Place your napkin on your lap, completely unfolded if it is a small luncheon napkin or in half, lengthwise, if it is a large dinner napkin. Typically, you want to put your napkin on your lap soon after sitting down at the table (but follow your host's lead). The napkin remains on your lap throughout the entire meal and should be used to gently blot your mouth when needed. If you need to leave the table during the meal, place your napkin on your chair as a signal to your server that you will be returning. The host will signal the end of the meal by placing his or her napkin on the table. Once the meal is over, you too should place your napkin neatly on the table to the right of your dinner plate. (Do not refold your napkin, but don't wad it up, either.)

Ordering

If, after looking over the menu, there are items you are uncertain about, ask your server any questions you may have. Answering your questions is part of the server's job. It is better to find out before you order that a dish is prepared with something you do not like or are allergic to than to spend the entire meal picking tentatively at your food.

An employer will generally suggest that your order be taken first; his or her order will be taken last. Sometimes, however, the server will decide how the ordering will proceed. Often, women's orders are taken before men's.

As a guest, you should not order one of the most expensive items on the menu or more than two courses unless your host indicates that it is all right. If the host says, "I'm going to try this delicious sounding cheesecake; why don't you try dessert too," or "The prime rib is the specialty here; I think you'd enjoy it," then it is all right to order that item if you would like.

"Reading" the Table Setting

Should you be attending a formal dinner or banquet with pre-set place settings, it is possible to gain clues about what may be served by "reading" the place setting. Start by drawing an imaginary line through the center of the serving plate (the plate will be placed in the center of your dining space). To the right of this imaginary line all of the following will be placed; glassware, cup and saucer, knives, and spoons, as well as a seafood fork if the meal includes seafood. It is important to place the glassware or cup back in the same position after its use in order to maintain the visual presence of the table. To the left of this imaginary line all of the following will be placed; bread and butter plate (including small butter knife placed horizontally across the top of the plate), salad plate, napkin, and forks. Remembering the rule of "liquids on your right" and "solids on your left" will help in allowing you to quickly become familiar with the place setting.

Use of Silverware

Choosing the correct silverware from the variety in front of you is not as difficult as it may first appear. Starting with the knife, fork, or spoon that is farthest from your plate, work your way in, using one utensil for each course. The salad fork is on your outermost left, followed by your dinner fork. Your soupspoon is on your outermost right, followed by your beverage spoon, salad knife and dinner knife. Your dessert spoon and fork are above your plate or brought out with dessert. If you remember the rule to work from the outside in, you'll be fine.

There are two ways to use a knife and fork to cut and eat your food. They are the American style and the European or Continental style. Either style is considered appropriate. In the American style, one cuts the food by holding the knife in the right hand and the fork in the left hand with the fork tines piercing the food to secure it on the plate. Cut a few bite-size pieces of food, then lay your knife across the top edge of your plate with the sharp edge of the blade facing in. Change your fork from your left to your right hand to eat, fork tines facing up. (If you are left-handed, keep your fork in your left hand, tines facing up.) The European or Continental style is the same as the American style in that you cut your meat by holding your knife in your right hand while securing your food with your fork in your left hand. The difference is your fork remains in your left hand, tines facing down, and the knife in your right hand. Simply eat the cut pieces of food by picking them up with your fork still in your left hand.

When You Have Finished

Do not push your plate away from you when you have finished eating. Leave your plate where it is in the place setting. The common way to show that you have finished your meal is to lay your fork and knife diagonally across your plate. Place your knife and fork side by side, with the sharp side of the knife blade facing inward and the fork, tines down, to the left of the knife. The knife and fork should be placed as if they are pointing to the numbers 10 and 4 on a clock face. Make sure they are placed in such a way that they do not slide off the plate as it is being removed. Once you have used a piece of silverware, never place it back on the table. Do not leave a used spoon in a cup, either; place it on the saucer. You can leave a soupspoon in a soup plate. Any unused silverware is simply left on the table.

 

[honestrosewater]

Well, I don't expect or want to be treated differently just because I'm a woman. Some people may want to be protected, supported, and catered to, and some may prefer to have an equal role in a relationship. I suggest treating people the way they want to be treated.

 

[Smurf]

The knife and fork should be placed as if they are pointing to the numbers 10 and 4 on a clock face.

Okay, I was ALWAYS taught that 5 and 11 were the proper positioning. Yet on this thread I've heard everything BUT those. Now, I'm sure it really doesn't matter if you hit 4 or 5 but the inconsistancy annoys me.

 

[quantumdude]

My most recent. Yes, he has. Even the Italian Stallion from Chicago that was from a working class family passed. Only one guy I went out on a date with failed, and someone set me up with him. I seem to be able to pick winners from a distance.

Heh, sorry for prying. It just seems like rules such as your "Fork Test" are a sure fire way to end up as a lonely cat lady. I have a test too, it's called the "Nitpicking About Inconsequential Details That Don't Mean A Hill Of Beans In Life Test". If a lady fails that one, then she gets kicked to the curb.

 

[matthyaouw]

I have a test too, it's called the "Nitpicking About Inconsequential Details That Don't Mean A Hill Of Beans In Life Test". If a lady fails that one, then she gets kicked to the curb.

Seconded

 

[Chi Meson]

Seriously, they are royalty. And have a castle, and are related to the Price of Wales and King William the 1st of England.

Does me absolutely no good.

Watch the fork of the Prince of Wales: left-hand, tines down (unless you actually DID mean the "price of wales"...dunno 'bout him).