Government/Military UFO's

Ivan Seeking
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It's an intriguing observation. I think you ought to compile a list of all the incidents you've read where this seems to be happening and then look for any other commonalities.
I should note that some reported objects obviously do reflect RADAR signals - they are tracked, as in the Iran case. Distance, the RADAR signal strenth at the source, and the return signal strength might provide some information wrt to energy transferred or lost. What I don't know is if this information could be applied to existing models for ball lightning or other anomalies. I remember SelfAdjoint commenting in this context that some model for soliton waves appears to be opaque at RADAR frequencies, but that's the end of the road for me. :biggrin: I'm not an expert on high-energy plasmas, assuming that is what's involved. Nor do we have a good model for ball lighting.
 
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I might add that reading these files provides what I found to be a fascinating inside look at our national defenses, intelligence, and military operations. Many reports are clearly referencing military events and not ET. Some document sets go all the way back to the days just after WWII. I remember one very strange report of numerous unidentified black helicopters landing at a sensitive military site. Never did figure out what that was all about. With time, and esp by cross-referencing reports from different databases, one can sometimes piece together seemingly disparate accounts and reconstruct what happened. Absolutely fascinating at times, I had a blast reading this stuff!
A couple weeks ago I read Jarhead and am currently reading How to break a Terrorist, written by one of the interrogators who worked in Iraq trying to ferret their way up the chain of command of various Al Quaida branches. From both books it's clear that any given person in the military is kept as ignorant as possible about everything that's going on except for their individual task at hand.

What that would mean is that the pilots of those black helicopters would know nothing about them except how to operate them. They would not know why they were designed (the intended ultimate purpose of that design), they wouldn't have been informed they were to fly to that base until the last minute, and they wouldn't know why they were there. Nor would the average person at the base know those helicopters were coming, where they came from, and why they had arrived.

All that serves obvious security purposes, but makes it pretty much impossible to figure out the significance of any given event: so few people involved know the big picture. It's entirely possible that the only people who ever know why a particular thing is being done is the general who gave the order and, perhaps, his immediate circle of advisors.
 
Ivan Seeking
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I wouldn't say it makes things impossible to figure out. It depends on the circumstances. In some cases, we can never know what a particular operation might be, especially the little stuff, but other information is well-documented and eventually made public. For example, we all know the story of the first atomic bomb - who built it; when; where; how; for what purpose, and the details of the deployment. At the time, that was the most classified project in history.

One can watch military history shows ad infinitum. They are chock-full with previously classified information; the details of military operations as well as intelligence operations.
 
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I wouldn't say it makes things impossible to figure out. It depends on the circumstances. In some cases, we can never know what a particular operation might be, especially the little stuff, but other information is well-documented and eventually made public. For example, we all know the story of the first atomic bomb - who built it; when; where; how; for what purpose, and the details of the deployment. At the time, that was the most classified project in history.
The bomb wasn't figured out, though. The government made the bomb public by using it. The original target of the secrecy was the Soviet Union, of course, and once they got the bomb there was no point in keeping the story of it's development secret.


Is there a chance we could figure out black helicopters? One might interview enough people to figure out, for example, that a special passenger or piece of cargo was transported to or from that base on the black helicopters, yes, but, unless their full capability is demonstrated in an operation with so many witnesses it can't be hidden (assuming they have some special capability), the complete black helicopter story just can't be pieced together: the military fixes it so that no one at that base, even the base commander, would know anything but the barest minimum they need to know about them.
 
Ivan Seeking
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Much of the information about UFOs was only released because someone involved, or someone investigating a story, knew what to request through the Freedom of Information Act. From this information, one can sometimes make sense of things. As you may recall, for example, you and I were able to debunk the claim that Hoover was denied access to the "Roswell disk". This was accomplished by you digging for details, and me reviewing the FBI files. In the end we deteremined that he was talking about a disk known to be about a foot in diameter, and found in Louisiana. It also turns out that Macabbee had already debunked this in 2000, in his book, UFO-FBI connection, but, nonetheless, I think it shows that one can sometimes make sense of these things; or at least help to put things into perspective. Btw, to this day, the bogus claim about Hoover is made on TV programs. [See the UFO Napster for details and FBI links]

This is the tricky part about chasing the facts on a UFO, or in this case, a rogue helicopters report: In order to file a FOIA request, you have to know what you are requesting. From a cold start like this, one may have no idea what to request. What's more, if information in any existing reports or documents is still sensitive, that part will be blacked out.

If, for example, we knew to request all documents related to project X, we might find out all about the details of what happened.
 
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Ivan Seeking
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Funny thing about the Iran report. I read that some years before I found the document myself [at the NSA] as a part of my search. Before that, I had assumed almost without a second thought that the document was bogus. It was just too much to believe. No real report read like that, I thought. Before the internet came along and these databases were made available online, the effort required to confirm something like this was too much for most people to bother. In many if not most cases, one had to go to the National Archives, in Washington DC, and view the microfische directly.
 
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I believe the Freedom Of Information Act only applies to the FBI, and that's because they create files on private citizens who have a right to see what's in their file. You can't petition the Air Force or Navy for info about secret projects currently in development.

Also, the way the FBI is set up, if an agent knows anything about a case he is likely to know a lot about that case. It's more like the police than the military.
 
Ivan Seeking
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I believe the Freedom Of Information Act only applies to the FBI
No. This is how many military UFO files were released. It applies to documents controlled by the US [Federal] government.

This is elementary stuff. You might refrain from making comments until you learn a little more about it.

You can't petition the Air Force or Navy for info about secret projects currently in development.
As already indicated, sensitive information is still controlled. That is partly my point about the UFO reports. Clearly this is not considered to be sensitive information.
 
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baywax
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You guys got all hot and bothered about the Canadian Avro Aero back in the 50s. But we gave in and gave it to you. Must have been a scary development in those days, to have to request we stop building it. What's a high performance aircraft between friends?!
 
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No. This is how many military UFO files were released. It applies to documents controlled by the US [Federal] government.

This is elementary stuff. You might refrain from making comments until you learn a little more about it.
Or, I might not, since I'm not aware of what I'm ignorant of till someone points it out.

As already indicated, sensitive information is still controlled. That is partly my point about the UFO reports. Clearly this is not considered to be sensitive information.
Yes, but documented reports of military personnel reporting unexplained phenomena are what require explanations, they aren't the explanations. To the extent any of these phenomena are sensitive military projects (Government/Military UFO's), you won't be able to get a report explaining them, nor will you be able to piece together what they are from talking to military personnel who've seen them because no one is told anything more than they need to know to do the task at hand.

Observing that luminous phenomena seem, in some cases, to be pushed by radar is intriguing because it suggests one might eventually be able to figure out what that phenomenon is without having to be told by the military.
 
baywax
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Observing that luminous phenomena seem, in some cases, to be pushed by radar is intriguing because it suggests one might eventually be able to figure out what that phenomenon is without having to be told by the military.
Or, we could just do away with hybrids, electric vehicles and everything else and develop the technology for our own transportation.:smile:
 

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