Gravity, Air Friction, Drag, 50, 60, 70, 100 miles up?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the physics of rocket flight, specifically focusing on the V2 rocket's performance, the effects of gravity and air friction (drag) at high altitudes, and the historical context of its development and capabilities. Participants explore theoretical aspects of gravity and drag in the atmosphere and space, as well as the engineering challenges faced by German scientists during World War II.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant notes the V2 rocket's engine burn lasted 70 seconds, reaching speeds of about 4000 ft/s, and discusses its trajectory and range, suggesting low drag and gravity effects at high altitudes.
  • Another participant clarifies that the V2 could not have been launched from Europe to New York directly, mentioning plans for underwater launch silos.
  • A participant presents a formula for how gravity decreases with altitude, referencing Newtonian principles and assumptions about Earth's shape and external gravitational influences.
  • One participant argues that while science often precedes technology, the German engineers applied existing scientific knowledge to develop new technologies for the V2 rocket.
  • Another participant emphasizes that the knowledge of gravity and atmospheric density was established prior to the V2 program, and that data was collected through earlier rocket launches.
  • A later post discusses the relationship between air density and drag force, providing a formula and noting that air density decreases significantly with altitude while gravity remains relatively constant.
  • Further discussion includes the mention of the A9/A10 rocket designs, which were intended to extend the V2's capabilities, suggesting a shift towards hypersonic flight rather than traditional ballistic trajectories.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a mix of agreement on the historical context and scientific principles, but there are competing views regarding the specifics of the V2's capabilities and the implications of gravity and drag at high altitudes. The discussion remains unresolved on several technical aspects.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference various assumptions about the Earth's shape and external gravitational influences, as well as the limitations of existing technology compared to theoretical physics. The discussion includes unresolved questions about the exact effects of altitude on gravity and drag.

gary350
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German V2 rocket engine burn was 70 seconds. Rocket speed about 4000 ft per second. Rocket launched straight up for 3 seconds then turned to a 42 degree angle. There is a lot of counterdicting information online about how high up V2 want and how far it flew but that is not the point. Engine burn out was about 60 miles down range and about 50 miles up but rocket continues to go up for about 100 miles or so before it leveled off and started down. Germans could make adjustments to shoot V2 to 4 different towns. V2 went 120 to 230 miles before coming down. After engine burn out the rocket coasted for 60 to 170 miles,drag & gravity must be very low. After the war ended it was learned Germany was able to shoot the V2 to New York city but was waiting until after winning the War and took over all of Asia. The V2 was very primitive technology compared to today's technology the rocket had to coast 2000 of miles to reach USA.

How much less air friction = drag is there in space. It must slowly get less and less the higher you go?

How much less gravity is in outer space. It has to get less and less too the higher up you go?

Rockets never burned up on re entry they never went faster than 4000 mph.

It is very interesting to me German engineers could calculate where the rocket would land, how was it possible to know things like gravity & drag 80 miles up no one had ever been there?
 
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gary350 said:
After the war ended it was learned Germany was able to shoot the V2 to New York city ...
But not from Europe. They had plans to tow underwater launch silos by submarines closer to the US shore (see time 5:30 in the video).

 
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About how gravity changes as we go higher and higher the intensity of gravitational field at height h above the surface of the Earth is given by the formula $$g(h)=G\frac{M}{(R+h)^2}$$ where ##M## the mass of Earth and ##R## the radius of Earth and ##G## the universal gravitational constant.

This formula which I believe is known since Isaac's Newton's era is valid if we consider the shape of the Earth to be perfect sphere and if we consider as negligible the gravitational influence of other celestial bodies (e.g Moon).
 
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Generally speaking, the science is usually ahead of technology. Even modern computers can be almost totally explained by classical physics(classical electromagnetism and classical and statistical mechanics) which were known from the 1880s. Now days we have relativity that tell us what happens at speeds near the speed of light but unfortunately the technology is a bit behind, fastest ever space probe made by human traveled at a speed like 1% of speed of light.

German engineers, pushed in many ways by the Nazi regime, just found new inventions and new applications for science (in short new technologies, cause that is what technology is about, the application of science to solve practical problems), a science that was already known many years or centuries ago.
 
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gary350 said:
... how was it possible to know things like gravity & drag 80 miles up no one had ever been there?
As Delta noted, Newtonian Gravity was known for centuries and the density of the atmosphere was also mostly predictable by laws known at the time. But they also had the rockets themselves to do these measurements and experiments. They didn't hit London with the very first V2 that flew. They also fired some vertically up to collect data.
 
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gary350 said:
...
How much less air friction = drag is there in space. It must slowly get less and less the higher you go?

How much less gravity is in outer space. It has to get less and less too the higher up you go?
...
The following link shows that the density of air dramatically decreases during the trajectory, but gravity not so much:

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/standard-atmosphere-d_604.html

The drag force is directly proportional to the density (##\rho##) of the surrounding air.

Fd = cd 1/2 ρ v2 A

Fd = drag force
cd = drag coefficient
ρ = density of fluid
v = flow velocity
A = characteristic frontal area of the body

:cool:
 
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A.T. said:
But not from Europe. They had plans to tow underwater launch silos by submarines closer to the US shore (see time 5:30 in the video).

And on the drawing board was the A9/A10 which in some configurations used the A4 (V2) as a second stage to hit the US. This was a not a ballistic missile per se but an hypersonic aircraft.
 

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