# Gun control: Are you kidding me?

Gold Member
jcsd said:
Actually the UK has a slightly hogher violent crime rate than the US, but it's murder rate is very, very low to compared to the US for one simple reason - tight gun control.
Actually look at your own crime statistics. You had very low crime rates before that ban was put in place in... 93 or something. Then within a few years, your murder rates had doubled.

See: http://tim.2wgroup.com/blog/archives/000384.html [Broken] i believe

@Huckleberry

But a criminal could just sand off the serial number. I mean it would be so easy to do since it would require a very small amount of work since the serial number would have to be VERY small because even alpha-numerical would need quite a few spaces (about 12 to be safe with like, what, 8 million bullets produced per day). Plus thsi would all have to be on the rim (where the hammer hits the bullet) because teh side of the case would be subject to the high pressures and would destroy the serial. Thats gonna be small as heck printing and easily destroyed.

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Forensic ballistics tagging

Huckleberry said:
It is unlikely that a criminal will want to spend the time to collect any casings after firing a weapon.
I was thinking the same thing, but revolvers retain casings (as long as they aren't reloaded mid-gun-battle). I would think the code would be etched into both the bullet and the casing, and repeatedly so as to make it more likely for ballistics technicians to be able to read deformed bullets.

There is already a system in use that is very similar, but much less efficient. There are tests that can be done on thechemical composition of the lead in a bullet to determine where it was made and sold.
At the http://ne.oregonstate.edu/facilities/radiation_center/intro.html [Broken] on one or more bullets. I don't know what facts about the bullets the police were trying to determine, though.

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Of course, if you take the pragmatic actual-humans-killed stance, deaths from homicide are basically negligible, just like terrorism.

Gold Member
lol well thats a boring stance bicycle, what are legislatures to do with all their time if there not out there fixing problems with no real effect on peoples lives.

Legislatures are out to fix problems that people think about. Whether the problems are actually important relative to other problems is only incidental. Hence, gun control & war on terror.

Gold Member
well, terrorism would become a huge problem if a nuclear bomb went off in downtown NY or LA. I dont suppose theres going ot be any day that we would ever remember where gun-enthusiasts or criminals killed 3 million people or osmething so its not a good comparison lol.

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BicycleTree said:
Of course, if you take the pragmatic actual-humans-killed stance, deaths from homicide are basically negligible, just like terrorism.
Firearms are a leading cause of death in the Unites States, close behind auto accidents.
http://www-medlib.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNSTAT.html

And firearms non-fatal injury rates are about seven times as high as the fatality rates and highly traumatic.

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The number of non-fatal injuries is considerable--over 200,000 per year in the U.S. Many of these injuries require hospitalization and trauma care. A 1994 study revealed the cost per injury requiring admission to a trauma center was over $14,000. The cumulative lifetime cost in 1985 for gunshot wounds was estimated to be$911 million, with $13.4 billion in lost productivity. (Mock et al, 1994) The cost of the improper use of firearms in Canada was estimated at$6.6 billion per year. (Chapdelaine and Maurice, 1996)
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BicycleTree said:
Of course, if you take the pragmatic actual-humans-killed stance, deaths from homicide are basically negligible, just like terrorism.
That may be true, but I still wouldn't feel any safer walking through the Detroit projects at night. Heart disease may kill more people than homocide but it doesn't lurk in dark corners waiting to shoot you. I'd rather lose a game of chess to a computer than to a human opponent.

Of 626 shootings in or around a residence in three U.S. cities revealed that, for every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were four unintentional shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides (Kellermann et al, 1998). Over 50% of all households in the U.S. admit to having firearms (Nelson et al, 1987). It would appear that, rather than beign used for defense, most of these weapons inflict injuries on the owners and their families.
That is a fairly alarming statistic.... 4 unintentionals, 7 criminal assaults, and 11 suicide attempts.... for every legitimate usage of self-defense, 22 atrocities elsewhere result.

Scary.

motai said:

That is a fairly alarming statistic.... 4 unintentionals, 7 criminal assaults, and 11 suicide attempts.... for every legitimate usage of self-defense, 22 atrocities elsewhere result.

Scary.
And gun control laws won't help much for the criminal assaults or suicide attempts. They may reduce the unintentional gun deaths. That is more a matter of hunting regulations and home safety, such as required trigger locks and gun safety classes. Unfortunately, the law can't stop people from doing stupid stuff with dangerous things.

Gold Member
Why is suicide attempts brought up so much? Does anyone really think suicide rates would drop of guns didnt exist? How many people would think "hmm... i would kill myself... but since theres no fast projectile creating mechanism that will allow me to do this, i wont do it"

brewnog said:
...need to get them to put a $500 tax on each bullet... Chris Rock did a bit on how each bullet should cost$5,000.00. There would be no more innocent bystanders then. At least thats what he says.

There is no real solution to gun control. You can take all the guns away and there will always be some crackerjack that can make one from scratch. As a matter of fact, I remember seeing a program where an Afghani family had a small forge and actually made their own AK-47 clones. The forge was tabletop size and their molds were made of wet sand.

Actually, there is a solution to gun control. Manditorially(sp) Arm EVERYONE, even kittens.

Pengwuino said:
Why is suicide attempts brought up so much? Does anyone really think suicide rates would drop of guns didnt exist? How many people would think "hmm... i would kill myself... but since theres no fast projectile creating mechanism that will allow me to do this, i wont do it"
Probably because suicide rates increase by a factor of five if a gun is in the house. People who may be suicidal will see guns as an easy option out, and oftentimes impulsive decisions are made.

It does make a difference.

http://www.handgunfree.org/HFAMain/topics/suicide/teen_suicide.htm

brewnog
Gold Member
Pengwuino said:
Why is suicide attempts brought up so much? Does anyone really think suicide rates would drop of guns didnt exist? How many people would think "hmm... i would kill myself... but since theres no fast projectile creating mechanism that will allow me to do this, i wont do it"
Yeah this is pretty ridiculous. The National Institute of Mental Health says that 60% of suicides involve a gun (which is possibly because guns are the most successful means of suicide, - "Ninety percent of suicide attempts that use a gun are successful") which doesn't surprise me.

But only ninety percent? How hard can it actually be to kill yourself with a gun?! What are they doing, trying to choke themselves on it?

Gold Member
Oh gotcha. Well, rather have people killing themselves then taking out their depression on other people (but then again, without guns, they wouldnt be able to do that very easy either lol).

But then again... if these people really want to kill themselves, go jump off a building. That website is pretty iffy to me since they used probably the most unreliable method of killing yourself as their sole comparison (drug overdose). I mean hell, go slit your throat ro jump off a cliff (literally).

And legitamite gun owners and law abiding citizens shouldnt be held accountable for some kid who listens too to much punk rock's and decides to go kill himself.

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30,000 a year is a drop in the bucket (and, might I add, a far bigger drop than terrorism). Yes, terrorist nukes would be a serious problem, if terrorists had any nukes. In the meantime we should commit serious money to clamping down on the worldwide supply of bomb material and shrug off a measly 3000 deaths every few years. At least, that's what a rational nation would do.

Gold Member
What do you mean clamping down on the worldwide supply of bomb material? a nuclear bomb or bombs in general?

Nuclear bombs. Non-nuclear explosive bombs are, pragmatically, harmless to the USA unless we're going up against China or something.

Gold Member
Oh yah we should definitly do that. Problem though is we can't really walk into Russia and go "Ok you guys are too poor to secure your material so we'll do it for you".

Why not? If we're serious about NYC not becoming a radioactive hole. We could give money, lend experts and troops, buy up material.

Pengwuino said:
That website is pretty iffy to me since they used probably the most unreliable method of killing yourself as their sole comparison
I agree that the website is questionable. They say that a home with a firearm means the people who live there are 5 times more likely to commit suicide. I think they are looking at this backwards. Suicide is not an impulsive act. People do not just wake up one day and decide to kill themselves. It draws itself out over a long period of time. They prepare for their suicide. They buy the gun. They hold out for hope. When they can't deal with it anymore, then they make the final decision and 15 minutes later they work up the will to commit the act of suicide. They may never speak of their intentions to anyone.

Then someone who wants guns banned comes in and says, "he owned a gun and commited suicide." He makes a check on his list that confirms his data, "Yup, people who own guns are 5 times more liekly to commit suicide." It's like saying people who own cars are 5 times more likely to be in an automobile accident.

Gun control...

take away guns, killers use knives, take away knives, killers use clubs, take away clubs, killers use hands, that is, if you can possibly rid yourself of EVERY gun on the PLANET. right now, there are so many AK-47s out there, that they sell for 50 dollars, you would never get them all. also, there is this thing called the second amendment in america, you can't take away guns or make it impossible for the common man to get his/her hands on one. Think of it this way, criminals will get guns, and they will kill with them. make guns illegal/very expensive will get them out of the hands of those who could defens themselves with them, thus making them easier to kill. like i said before, there will always be murderers, and guns don't kill, humans do.

Fibonacci

Huckleberry said:
Suicide is not an impulsive act.

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Prior studies have also found that many suicide attempts are made impulsively (Brown, Overholser, Spirito, & Fritz 1991; Kost-Grant, 1983; O’Donnell, Farmer, & Catalan, 1996; Read, 1997; Williams et al., 1980). Estimates of the proportion of suicide attempts that are made impulsively vary widely depending on the definitions used and the sample studied. Some estimates are based on the characteristics of the attempt and the amount of planning involved (Brown et al., 1991; O’Donnell et al., 1996). Another approach is to examine the amount of time spent contemplating the suicide attempt. For example, Williams and colleagues (1980) found that 40 percent of hospital patients treated for self-injury reported less than 5 minutes premeditation.
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I read the articles and I'm not convinced. A person who is more or less satisfied with their life does not commit suicide. Suicides are performed by people who are unhappy with their life. They have low self-esteem and see no hope for themselves. Their decision to commit suicide is based on their personal image of themselves, which is often very different from the public image they present.

In my last post I said the final decision may take 15 minutes and seem impulsive to others. The actual decision making process is a long one.

Moonbear
Staff Emeritus