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Guns Guns Guns! Everything guns!

  1. Apr 11, 2005 #1

    Ivan Seeking

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    Gun Control: Can it even work?

    There is another report out specific to Australia that I haven't found yet. Apparently the new Australian law, which led to the destruction of millions of guns, has also led to an increase in crime of various sorts, including armed robbery. Here is another related article.

    http://www.southcoasttoday.com/daily/03-05/03-20-05/e10sp964.htm

    As for the question at hand, I say no way. The results reported in Austrailia are exactly what gun proponents have long predicted. What we need is a justice system that works, not the loss of yet more constitutional rights.
     
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  3. Apr 11, 2005 #2

    Ivan Seeking

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    Here is one specific report. [assuming this to be accurate]
    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/1366727/posts

    Not millions of guns as I first thought I had heard. The correct number appears to be 640,381.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2005
  4. Apr 11, 2005 #3

    Pengwuino

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    If you could take every gun every human being has and stop the production of guns and imprison every citizen of the world and take their guns during the time and let them out once all the guns have been confiscated (then some citizens jail all the people who did the first searches and took away their guns).... THEN gun control would work. Otherwise its just a pipe dream.

    Sure people can stand for gun control on principle... but sinec people do actually die because of gun control laws, they need to stand for it in principle ONLY and not try to get legislation passed. Not 1 single city/country has passed gun bans in the modern era outside of dictatorships and ended up with less gun-related crime.

    What I just dont understand about people is why they cant get simpel following fact into their head:

    "Law abiding citizens do not wish to commit crimes with their firearms
    Criminals do and since they are in fact criminals, they will NOT be affected by a law seeing as criminals by definition, do not listen to laws."

    I am completely unable to convince people of that. Im not sure what they think. I think they lean towards more the idea that if people have guns, they immediately commit crimes as if its some sort of psychological reflex. Not many people argue that criminals will listen to laws.

    I currently have a 12 gauge and a .22 and they are in my closet safe and sound. I have had them since a month after my 18th birthday and i have yet to commit or even dream about commiting a crime with them..... although that mailman out there is kinda annoying with all the bills he sends... maybe ill kill him.....
     
  5. Apr 11, 2005 #4

    loseyourname

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    Weren't handguns banned in Washington DC, the murder capital of the USA for many years afterward? I believe they're trying to do the same thing in San Francisco.
     
  6. Apr 11, 2005 #5
    One of the main reasons that gun control doesn't work is that there is always a black market. Criminals don't liscense their gun with the federal government :tongue2:. They will always find their sources elsewhere, and it probably will not be with a legal pawn shop.

    As long as the illegal importation of guns continue to flow into the country, there will always be a problem. Not to mention the current number of guns (registered and unregistered) in the wrong hands in the first place.
     
  7. Apr 11, 2005 #6

    Pengwuino

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    Yup, 100% accurate post :D
     
  8. Apr 11, 2005 #7

    Pengwuino

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    Yup, 100% accurate presumption. Your not allowed to buy fully automatic AK 47's yet California is practically afghanistan with em.
     
  9. Apr 11, 2005 #8

    Moonbear

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    As I've debated this issue many times, I think my views have evolved similar to what you stated. However, while a complete ban on guns is not the solution to the problem, for the reasons stated above (criminals will still get them), tighter controls on licensing of guns is still a good idea in my mind...not to prevent crimes so much as to help prevent the accidental shootings that occur when people own guns without proper safety education.
     
  10. Apr 11, 2005 #9

    BobG

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    For the most part, there's no correlation between gun control laws and crime. ( http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5214a2.htm )

    Of course, if you really read the details the report, that's because there just hasn't been enough independent studies (gun control proponents and gun rights proponents all tend to wind up gravitating toward their favorite report over and over).

    There isn't even a proven correlation between gun control laws and the number of firearm accidents.

    About the only proven correlation is that having a five day waiting period at least reduces the number of suicides via firearms (however, it doesn't result in a significant drop in suicides overall).

    There is a definite correlation between your income level, the neighborhood you live in, and your chances of being a victim of violent crime.

    So, maybe, if you live in a low income neighborhood, owning a firearm might make you safer - of course, if you live in a low income neighborhood, you're also more likely to shoot one of your family members in a drunken rage or be shot by a jealous husband/wife - so maybe it's a push; we don't know.

    If you live in a higher income neighborhood, you're not very likely to have someone shoot you - even a low risk of a firearm accident would outweigh the chances that a gun might save your life.
     
  11. Apr 11, 2005 #10
    Agreed, though I was thinking about semi-automatic weapons, for example, and that in addition to tight control of licensing, perhaps these weapons should be banned. In other words, the right to bear arms is based on premises of preventing tyranny, to hunt, and protect self and property.

    Did anyone else notice how Bush completely ignored gun control? I was wondering if he decided not to address it (the way he decided not to discuss using marijuana?) or if he doesn't care about the issue, or was just derelict of duty (like ignoring memos about an attack on the WTC., etc.). I suspect it was the latter...
     
  12. Apr 11, 2005 #11

    Pengwuino

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    Well ignoring gun control can mean he doesnt support it. And the President of the United States doesnt recieve individual memos from low level field agents for the FBI in Arizona :)
     
  13. Apr 11, 2005 #12
    I probably should specify what I was referring to. First:
    There was an old thread on the topic, and if I recall correctly, the conclusion was neglect by Bush and his administration. As for the topic of this post, I was referring to the legislation to ban assault weapons, which Bush also ignored and was brought up as follows:

    I own a gun, so obviously believe in the right to bear arms. With regard to the legislation on assault weapons, I believe Bush spaced on this.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2005
  14. Apr 11, 2005 #13

    Pengwuino

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    Ok so Bush says he didnt do it because it would waste Congressional time. Sounds like your just taking 1 parties side for the truth on this one. And pretty much most experts know that briefing didnt demand any major action on the President's part and was very vague so i dont know what to tell you.

    ahaha i said waste congressional time.... what a joke
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2005
  15. Apr 13, 2005 #14
    YES, good idea, also if you are against this, 1/2 of the meat my family eats comes from hunting. It would be expensive if we had to buy all that meat instead.
     
  16. Apr 13, 2005 #15
    that type of ban (asault weapons) is good, for those weapons provide no benefit to a normal law abiding civilian
     
  17. Apr 13, 2005 #16

    Alkatran

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    On a related topic: anyone who wants to ban guns for hunting needs to learn how the world works.

    Yes, people are over hunting some species, but hunting is REQUIRED for most species to not overpopulate.

    Anecdote: They banned deer hunting for a year (in such and such area) and deer-related car accidents sky rocketed.
     
  18. Apr 13, 2005 #17

    russ_watters

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    One of the reasons for that is that a lot of guns (not just ak's) are specifically made to be easy to convert. That's one restriction that needs to be tightened-up: they need to be engineered in such a way as to make them more difficult to convert.
    I'm not sure what you're getting at here: this wasn't a major issue in this campaign. There's nothing inherrently wrong with that because there are literally an infinite number of issues you could choose as the basis of a campaign.
    We've discussed those memos already: they did not contain specific information that could be acted on tactically (ie, names and dates). They indicated a broad-based security threat and law enforcement/intel shortfall that would require years to remedy.

    Please don't hijack the thread.
     
  19. Apr 13, 2005 #18

    Moonbear

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    I guess that depends on whether you're a good shot or not. I've been told ammo is pretty expensive. :tongue2:

    Agreed. However, this is yet another reason why I think licensing of guns needs to go hand in hand with rigorous safety training. A number of people I know who used to enjoy hunting say 20 or 30 years ago (the old-timers if you will), have given up on the sport simply because they no longer feel safe out in the woods with the hot-heads shooting at anything that moves, orange vest or not! Actually, for hunting purposes, you could even implement the safety training as a requirement for getting the hunting permit, as hunting safety requires additional precautions that are different from just knowing to lock up your weapon, store it unloaded, point it at the ground and keep your finger off the trigger when not aiming at something, etc. You also need to add in to check that you're clear of other people, and that your target is actually the deer or bird or whatever it is that you're supposed to be hunting for, and not a fellow hunter or child playing in the woods. It's not like target practice on a closed range where people aren't wandering around behind the targets.
     
  20. Apr 13, 2005 #19
    Well then, I guess this isn't a very important issue, so debating it is not a good use of time. The point I was making is that Bush ignored the legislation, which he basically admited to in the presidential debate. Personally, it all seemed a bit lame to me.
    My original comment was made in passing, therefore it was not my intention to change the topic. And I did make reference to the earlier thread, but apparently you came away with a very different conclusion then I did (not surprisingly).
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2005
  21. Apr 13, 2005 #20

    Alkatran

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    I have an archer's hunting permit and they definitely covered safety.

    We were told not to shoot if there were ANYTHING in the way, because even a strand of grass can apparently throw an arrow of course by a large amount.

    We were also told that if we did kill something, not to display it for the world to see on the top of a truck. Hunting has a bad enough name as it is, apparently.

    I never did end up going deer hunting, though.
     
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