News Hamas and Fatah agree again

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It's pretty good news, finally.
Palestinian reconciliation talks kick off in Cairo
[...]

The Egyptian-mediated talks follow the recent 22-day Israeli offensive against Hamas in the Gaza Strip. They come as the Obama administration is pushing to break the Palestinian-Israeli deadlock and amid the coalition talks between conservative, right-wing and centrist parties attempting to form a new Israeli government.

"We hope this meeting is the real start of a new period ending the state of division," said Omar Sulieman, Egpyt's intelligence chief, who for months has been pressing 13 Palestinian factions to set the framework for a unity government. Meetings for such a goal are expected to continue through the first two weeks of March.

[...]

The reconciliation negotiations come ahead of an Egyptian-hosted international donor conference scheduled for Monday to discuss the reconstruction of Gaza. The Palestinians hope to raise $2.8 billion to rebuild the seaside enclave, where about 1,300 Palestinians died during the Israeli incursion. The question is who will receive the money; moderate Arab nations and Western donors have refused to deal with the militant Hamas.
 

Astronuc

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Now I want to see Hamas agree not to fire missiles into Israel, but instead spend the money on peaceful economic development - and recognize Israel's right to exist - and be a good neighbor. Seems simple enough.
 

kyleb

Seems like a gross double standard as long as you are only asking Hamas to do what Israel has refused to do since long before Hamas existed.
 

Art

As I said in another thread Britain's position is changing in relation to Hamas. After flatly refusing all talks with Hamas for years the latest official position has now softened.
(David Milliband is the UK's foreign secretary)

Miliband said: "Egypt has been nominated ... to speak to Hamas on behalf of the Arab League but actually on behalf of the whole world. Others speak to Hamas. That's the right thing to do and I think we should let the Egyptians take this forward."
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/22/20090225/tpl-uk-palestinians-miliband-interview-s-43a8d4f.html [Broken]

It is rare for Britain to take a stance on such issues without okaying it with the US first so perhaps this also indicates an as yet unannounced shift in the new administration's position.
 
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russ_watters

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Seems like a gross double standard as long as you are only asking Hamas to do what Israel has refused to do since long before Hamas existed.
That is just so blatantly wrong, it is bizarre that people actually believe such things. The country of Palestine was created recently and exists now for the first time only because Israel gave them the land to have a country. Recognize it's right to exist? Heh - Israel created it!
 
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kyleb

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tiny-tim

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international donor conference

The reconciliation negotiations come ahead of an Egyptian-hosted international donor conference scheduled for Monday to discuss the reconstruction of Gaza … Western donors have refused to deal with the militant Hamas.
Let's wait until Monday.
 

Art

That is just so blatantly wrong, it is bizarre that people actually believe such things. The country of Palestine was created recently and exists now for the first time only because Israel gave them the land to have a country. Recognize it's right to exist? Heh - Israel created it!
The country of Palestine does not yet exist and if Likud is true to it's charter never will. Why do you insist on making this stuff up????

The US recognises 194 separate states in the world. Palestine is not one of them http://www.state.gov/s/inr/rls/4250.htm There is not a state in the world who recognises Palestine as a country. http://geography.about.com/od/politicalgeography/a/palestinenot.htm

Per forum guidelines please provide the source you referenced to substantiate your ridiculous claim.
 
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russ_watters

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Besides making only passing reference to "unilateral disengagaement", the policy which granted Palestine land to have a country on, it doesn't talk much about the basis of policy. But that small reference supports what I said, not what you said.
That link talks about the status of the "occupied territories" (not only did they give back land, they did it without the promise of anything in return! Rediculous!). Look you're confused: the fact that they are still considered occupied doesn't mean they aren't still a piece of land for Palestine to exist on. They are not, (and never have been, actually) an annexed piece of Israel. Their status today - and Israel's policy toward them - is not unlike Afghanistan or Iraq.

No, Palestine does not yet have complete sovereignty, but it most certainly exists and the land it exists on, Israel gave it. For it to become completely sovereign, it first needs to establish a stable and peaceful government. But Israel is committed to the goal of peaceful coexistence with a neighboring Palestinian state.
I am at a loss as to imagine what has mislead you believe what I said is anything but fact, but I assure you that your claims have no basis in reality. Are you just arguing from your gut here?
You actually made no attempt to support your claim with that post, only arguing around the periphery of it and offering a broad history of the conflict. So I would ask the same of you!

Hamas policy is clear and written down: no Israel. Israel doesn't have a charter with verbiage about Palestine written into it, so we must judge their intent by their actions. And those actions are:
1. They never annexed the "occupied territories", which means they never intended the occupation to be permanent or those territories to be part of Israel. This is in line with the UN act that created Israel and intended to create Palestine.
2. They have unilaterally given occupied territories back to the recently established government of Palestine, so they can start to build a real state on it. That state is not yet ready for total sovereignty, but it most certainly exists.
 
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Art

Besides making only passing reference to "unilateral disengagaement", the policy which granted Palestine land to have a country on, it doesn't talk much about the basis of policy. But that small reference supports what I said, not what you said. That link talks about the status of the "occupied territories" (not only did they give back land, they did it without the promise of anything in return! Rediculous!). Look you're confused: the fact that they are still considered occupied doesn't mean they aren't still a piece of land for Palestine to exist on. They are not, (and never have been, actually) an annexed piece of Israel. Their status today - and Israel's policy toward them - is not unlike Afghanistan or Iraq.

No, Palestine does not yet have complete sovereignty, but it most certainly exists and the land it exists on, Israel gave it. For it to become completely sovereign, it first needs to establish a stable and peaceful government. But Israel is committed to the goal of peaceful coexistence with a neighboring Palestinian state.
You actually made no attempt to support your claim with that post, only arguing around the periphery of it and offering a broad history of the conflict. So I would ask the same of you!
More b.s. Show me a source which accredits Palestine with the status of a country!! I can tell you now. You can't, because there is not one. NOBODY in the world but you makes this claim.
 

russ_watters

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The US recognises 194 separate states in the world. Palestine is not one of them http://www.state.gov/s/inr/rls/4250.htm There is not a state in the world who recognises Palestine as a country. [B]Per forum guidelines please provide the source you referenced to substantiate your ridiculous claim[/B].[/QUOTE] [b]You[/b] mischaracterized what I said, probably intentionally. International recognition of the states is not what is being discussed here - it isn't the double-standard kyleb was referring to. It isn't about diplomatically recognizing a state. Heck, even before a state actually [b]exists[/b] (but the fact that it does takes us past that point, which is why I said it), it is about recognizing the [b]right[/b] of the state to exist. Pretty much the entire world - including the US - recognizes the right of Palestine to exist. But like the Taliban, that doesn't mean that any government will be acceptable. They have to come up to international standards before being accepted into the fold, diplomatically. Perhaps this type of bait-and-switch argument is what kyleb was attempting too, but it's wrong and you're smart enough to know it's wrong. Palestine has land to exist on, granted by Israel. Palestine has a government - two, sortat - that prior to Hamas taking over, at least, Israel was dealing with on alimited diplomatic level.
 
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Art

You mischaracterized what I said, probably intentionally. International recognition of the states is not what is being discussed here - it isn't the double-standard kyleb was referring to. It isn't about diplomatically recognizing a state. Heck, even before a state actually exists (but the fact that it does takes us past that point, which is why I said it), it is about recognizing the right of the state to exist. Pretty much the entire world - including the US - recognizes the right of Palestine to exist. But like the Taliban, that doesn't mean that any government will be acceptable. They have to come up to international standards before being accepted into the fold, diplomatically.

Perhaps this type of bait-and-switch argument is what kyleb was attempting too, but it's wrong and you're smart enough to know it's wrong.
This is going from the sublime to the ridiculous. You claimed a country called Palestine was created through the benevolence of Israel. Now prove it!! Show me one source that recognises a country called Palestine.

The ruling Likud party in Israel has a charter which expressly states it will NEVER agree to the creation of the state of Palestine
"The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river. The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state. Thus, for example, in matters of foreign affairs, security, immigration and ecology, their activity shall be limited in accordance with imperatives of Israel’s existence, security and national needs."
and as for annexing land it says
The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting."
http://www.palestinechronicle.com/view_article_details.php?id=14772
 

russ_watters

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I know you guys will pick and choose and ignore, but the relevant history on this question starts with the Oslo accords in 1993: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_Accords

Of note:
1. It's the first time Israel dealt with a Palestinian authority directly.
2. It led to the "unilateral disengagement" policy, which is intended to give land back to Palestine for it to have a state on it.
3. Partial sovereignty has been granted as a result.
4. On the other side of the coin, Arafat himself and speaking for the PLO, recognized Israel's right to exist, but that recognition didn't survive Arafat.
 

russ_watters

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This is going from the sublime to the ridiculous. You claimed a country called Palestine was created through the benevolence of Israel. Now prove it!! Show me one source that recognises a country called Palestine.
You are still not addressing the issue. You will get no further response from me until you do.
 

Art

You are still not addressing the issue. You will get no further response from me until you do.
The issue is you made the outrageous claim there is a new country called Palestine created by the benevolence of Israel.
The country of Palestine was created recently and exists now for the first time only because Israel gave them the land to have a country. Recognize it's right to exist? Heh - Israel created it!
I have asked you to substantiate this and you cannot.

Mind you that's not surprising given Likud's declaration they will NEVER agree to an independent state of Palestine. I suggest you read their charter http://www.knesset.gov.il/elections/knesset15/elikud_m.htm .

Perhaps then you can tell me why Hamas is beyond the pale for having a charter which refuses to recognise the right of Israel to exist whilst Likud who similarly refuse the right for Palestine to exist are an acceptable legitimate government? There is a certain irony about Israel demanding a non-state, whose existence they refuse to allow much less acknowledge, recognise Israel and it's right to exist.
 
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all i know is a so called "COUNTRY" called "Israil" killing 1000's of inocent people. ok, jews as a whole arnt for this, but the ZIONIST's are.. openly. no argument there!, aslong as the ZIONISTS are in charge of Israil.. then the inocent palistinians will suffer and no-one will act untill it happens to them. selfish, ignorant, there are no words to deascribe the ones who try to justify this. any artical, anything at all, nothing can say this is right, im helpless as i cant do nothing to help them, nothing to influence the world, nothing at ALL, you can be happy all you want.. the massicar of muslims go unknown... no proof needed, the pure fact that the bbc and sky reject to show the truth and charity adverts, well all i see in this room is arguments that what is palistine and what is israil...

when the jews where being outcasted in poland germany and so on, they fled to the arabic country, what happend from there i dont know, muslims alow other religions to practivce their religions and have a open invitation to the jews (prooved in many countrys, even soudi arabia ! ive been so i know, however from the situation now you can see that the "guest" has over run the "house" and started killing the owners, or more better put the occupiers...

if someone asked for assitance and i let them into my home, and they slowly or quickly kicked me out, and then have the nerve to say "terrorist" when i try to fight to get it back, while no1 else is bothering to help me? and then when i try to get my house back the world looks at me as a trouble causer becouse they have their own homes and dont have this problem? then just for the them to look good they give me scraps, but then also make me suffer in a confined space where they have control of what and how much i eat? THIS IS CALLED OPRESSION... where have the people of oppresion critisment gone ?? there where all worried about the wimen with hijaab? but not of dead inocent wimen (hijaab or no hijaab) ?.

no matter how long the outsiders (israil) occupied the home of palistine, you think they will give up their home? would you give up yours? and even so if you say arrogently yes... then where will you go? leaving homes? lifes? herratage? all behind? givng up everything they own and have and then what? this is turture... to be honest, i dnt care what people with theses stupid sugestions have to say, as they try to be peace makers and overlook the slaughter.

whats with the weapons in israil? i hate to say it but even america has obama who loves israil and is i a dilemma, and looks like he chooses israil over whats right and wrong at the moment.

thanks for reading, apologies for my spelling.
 

tiny-tim

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a state requires recognition and sovereignty

The ruling Likud party in Israel has a charter …
For the actual charter (English translation), see http://www.knesset.gov.il/elections/knesset15/elikud_m.htm

The country of Palestine was created recently and exists now for the first time only because Israel gave them the land to have a country. Recognize it's right to exist? Heh - Israel created it!
russ, your statement that Israel gave them the land to have a country may be largely correct, but the above passage twice states that that country has now been created … which is clearly not correct
… even before a state actually exists (but the fact that it does takes us past that point, which is why I said it)
and again you say that a Palestinian state actually exists … while clearly "Palestine" has a parliament, its own health and other public services, and so on, it is at best an autonomous region, and certainly not a state

one of the defining characteristics of a state is that it is recognised as such by other states … "Palestine" is not even recognised as a state by the Arab League … another is that it has sovereignty over its territory, which "Palestine" clearly doesn't
 

Art

The Palestinian reconciliation talks seem to have gone well,

Palestinians pledge era of unity

Leaders of the rival Palestinian factions Hamas and Fatah have said they are entering a new era of reconciliation, after talks in Cairo.

Delegations from each side, and other Palestinian groups, have agreed to set up committees to look at forming a unity government and holding elections.

The committees are to finish their work by the end of March, said senior Fatah official Ahmed Qurei.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7912068.stm

One idea they are looking at is merging Hamas into the PLO. It doesn't say whether this means Hamas will cease to exist as a separate entity but the fact the major western powers seem ready to deal with any resultant unity government is a massive policy change.
 
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kyleb

I know you guys will pick and choose and ignore, but the relevant history on this question starts with the Oslo accords in 1993:
I have no interest in selectively resounding the history, and would appreciate it if you could suppress your compulsion to make slanderous insinuations to the contrary.

That said, I am well aware of the details of the Oslo Accords along with much of the history and current realities of this conflict. For instance, your characterization of the unilateral disengagement ignores the fact that Israel never had any legal right to the land they withdrew from, or any of the Palestinian territories. Furthermore, your argument also ignores Israel's ongoing colonization of Palestinian land in the West Bank, which is mentioned in the http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2007/100597.htm" I presented previously:

A July OCHA report on the humanitarian impact of Israeli settlements concluded that 40 percent of West Bank land includes Israeli infrastructure including 1,032 miles of roads, military bases, nature reserves, settlements, and outposts). It added that the population of Israeli settlements grew 4.6 percent in 2003-04, while Israel's population grew 1.8 percent.

On March 30, the Israeli Ministry of Finance transferred to the government of Israel ownership of 7.5 acres of olive orchard known as "Mufti’s Grove" in East Jerusalem's Shaykh Jarrah neighborhood. On April 1, the Israeli government leased the land to the Ateret Cohanim settler group.
You can find many more details of Israel's process of wiping Palestine off the map http://kibush.co.il/datapage.asp?lang=1%20&section=6" [Broken].

And yeah, Arafat recognised Israel's right to exist, Palestinians got limited autonomy under Israeli martial law as Israel continues their conquest over Palestine, in flagrant denial of Palestine's right to exist. That got Fatah discredited in the eyes of the many Palestinians, and hence they lost the election to Hamas. So. again, one can't rightly expect Hamas to respect Israel's right to exist and be a good neighbor as long as Israel refuses to reciprocate by respecting Palestinians right to exist, which Israel has refused to do since long before Hamas existed.

and again you say that a Palestinian state actually exists … while clearly "Palestine" has a parliament, its own health and other public services, and so on, it is at best an autonomous region, and certainly not a state
More accurately, a collection of semi-autonomous enclaves, those other than the Gaza Strip detailed in brown on http://www.btselem.org/Download/Separation_Barrier_Map_Eng.pdf" [Broken].

One idea they are looking at is merging Hamas into the PLO. It doesn't say whether this means Hamas will cease to exist as a separate entity but the fact the major western powers seem ready to deal with any resultant unity government is a massive policy change.
Ironically, Hamas was working to form a unity government with Fatah from when they were elected back in 2006, as being new to governing Hamas needed all the help they could get. Yet, instead we condemned Palestine for electing Hamas because of it's terrorism, while ignoring the fact that Fatah has it's own terrorist wing too, proceed to arm Fatah to coup Hamas's victory, and condemned Hamas for surviving that coup attempt. Then Hamas attempts to hold a cease-fire with Israel, but Fatah terrorists shoot some rockets anyway, and then we further condemn Hamas for the rockets being shot, and even more absurdly for cracking down the organization which was shooting them. So we excuse Israel's attack Hamas, yet further condemn Hamas for resuming their own rocket fire in response, and cheer Israel for every last one of their attempts to terrorize Palestinians into submission. So now, we are back to where we were in 2006, Palestinians are working to form a unity government, with nothing accomplished over the years aside from Israeli settlement expansion in the West Bank, and much death and destruction on both sides. Not that any such agreements can end this conlifct as long as Israel refuses to respect Palestine's right to exist.
 
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to be honest, i dnt care what people with theses stupid sugestions have to say, as they try to be peace makers and overlook the slaughter.
So you are in favor of continued conflict instead of making peace? That sounds like a plan....it's worked really well so far hasn't it?

If the constant attacks from those who deny Isreal's right to exist were to cease, then I am quite positive that there would be no more retaliation attacks from Isreal in an effort to get those responsible. Those who seem to intentionally hide amongst the general public, probably because they want to maximize civilian casualties in order to get more public support for their cause.

There needs to be a real solution to the conflict, and I can assure you that continued attacks are not going to solve anything.
 
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There needs to be a real solution to the conflict, and I can assure you that continued attacks are not going to solve anything.
I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes the war with Israel and Hamas but IMHO the only solution is for one side to win and one side to surrender. This is the only way any major war in the past has ever actually ended, to my knowledge anyway.
 

tiny-tim

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Then Hamas attempts to hold a cease-fire with Israel, but Fatah terrorists shoot some rockets anyway, and then we further condemn Hamas for the rockets being shot, and even more absurdly for cracking down the organization which was shooting them.
Interesting … Fatah terrorists firing rockets from Gaza …

From http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=87743"
Fatah's Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades called WND and also released an official pamphlet to take credit for firing at least five rockets and four mortars today, lightly wounding two Israeli soldiers and one civilian.
and from http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/129715 (27 Feb 09) …
However, it was Abbas's own Fatah terrorist wing, the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, which took responsibility for firing a Kassam and mortars on the western Negev Sunday morning.
 
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kyleb

I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes the war with Israel and Hamas but IMHO the only solution is for one side to win and one side to surrender. This is the only way any major war in the past has ever actually ended, to my knowledge anyway.
The "war" ends with ether Palestinians being granted civil rights by Israel, or Israel acknowledging Palestine's right to exist so they can finally have sovereignty over what little of their homeland they have yet to cede their right to. That choice is in Israel's hands given it's overwhelming military superiority, as it always has been, which makes this not rightly a war. From that position of dominance, Israel has long since "http://books.google.com/books?id=ZpYvMW4PYuMC&pg=PA127&lpg=PA127&dq=Eshkol+"decided+not+to+decide"&source=bl&ots=qyqrShTsoU&sig=TwZ02a8RHBkeQiJ1LEuqNBnmJZA&hl=en&ei=AE-oSc__JIjBnQeVhp3dDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPA127,M1"", and hence this conflict continues.

Anyway, for a bit of historical perspective on the conflict, I recommend http://www.kamat.com/mmgandhi/mideast.htm" [Broken].

Interesting … Fatah terrorists firing rockets from Gaza …
Fatah's terrorism was Israel's primary excuse for not resolving this conflict prior to Hamas wining power. Hamas's victory simply allowed exploitation of the Islamic scare factor, bringing more support to this ongoing conquest over Palestine. So again, we are back to where we were in 2006, with the possibility of a Palestinian unity government, but little understanding of this conflict by it's many reflexive supporters, and hence little hope for peace.
 
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The "war" ends with ether Palestinians being granted civil rights by Israel, or Israel acknowledging Palestine's right to exist so they can finally have sovereignty over what little of their homeland they have yet to cede their right to.
Call me a skeptic, but I doubt that would end anything.

There seems to be a segment of the islamic community that will never stop fighting as long as Isreal exists, and unfortunately it seems that many Palestinians are paying the price for it.

Obviously both sides hold some responsibility for this tragedy, but it will likely never stop as long as extremists keep attacking innocent civilians.
 

kyleb

Did you read Gandhi's article I linked? If not then I'd have to call you a willfully ignorant provocateur, of the same ilk as those on the other side which you condemn. On the other hand, if you did read the article, I'll simply contest that you still have a very loose grasp on the nature of this conflict, and hence are falling to understand the situation in your jump to conclusions. Put simply, if you care too look, you will find much extremism and attacking of innocent civilians on both sides, and backing one over the other will only bring more death and destruction on both sides.
 

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