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News Hamas and Fatah agree again

  1. Feb 26, 2009 #1
    It's pretty good news, finally.
    Palestinian reconciliation talks kick off in Cairo
     
  2. jcsd
  3. Feb 26, 2009 #2

    Astronuc

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    Now I want to see Hamas agree not to fire missiles into Israel, but instead spend the money on peaceful economic development - and recognize Israel's right to exist - and be a good neighbor. Seems simple enough.
     
  4. Feb 26, 2009 #3
    Seems like a gross double standard as long as you are only asking Hamas to do what Israel has refused to do since long before Hamas existed.
     
  5. Feb 26, 2009 #4

    Art

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    As I said in another thread Britain's position is changing in relation to Hamas. After flatly refusing all talks with Hamas for years the latest official position has now softened.
    (David Milliband is the UK's foreign secretary)

    http://uk.news.yahoo.com/22/20090225/tpl-uk-palestinians-miliband-interview-s-43a8d4f.html [Broken]

    It is rare for Britain to take a stance on such issues without okaying it with the US first so perhaps this also indicates an as yet unannounced shift in the new administration's position.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 4, 2017
  6. Feb 26, 2009 #5

    russ_watters

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    That is just so blatantly wrong, it is bizarre that people actually believe such things. The country of Palestine was created recently and exists now for the first time only because Israel gave them the land to have a country. Recognize it's right to exist? Heh - Israel created it!
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2009
  7. Feb 27, 2009 #6
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 24, 2017
  8. Feb 27, 2009 #7

    tiny-tim

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    international donor conference

    Let's wait until Monday.
     
  9. Feb 27, 2009 #8

    Art

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    The country of Palestine does not yet exist and if Likud is true to it's charter never will. Why do you insist on making this stuff up????

    The US recognises 194 separate states in the world. Palestine is not one of them http://www.state.gov/s/inr/rls/4250.htm There is not a state in the world who recognises Palestine as a country. http://geography.about.com/od/politicalgeography/a/palestinenot.htm

    Per forum guidelines please provide the source you referenced to substantiate your ridiculous claim.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 24, 2017
  10. Feb 27, 2009 #9

    russ_watters

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    Besides making only passing reference to "unilateral disengagaement", the policy which granted Palestine land to have a country on, it doesn't talk much about the basis of policy. But that small reference supports what I said, not what you said. That link talks about the status of the "occupied territories" (not only did they give back land, they did it without the promise of anything in return! Rediculous!). Look you're confused: the fact that they are still considered occupied doesn't mean they aren't still a piece of land for Palestine to exist on. They are not, (and never have been, actually) an annexed piece of Israel. Their status today - and Israel's policy toward them - is not unlike Afghanistan or Iraq.

    No, Palestine does not yet have complete sovereignty, but it most certainly exists and the land it exists on, Israel gave it. For it to become completely sovereign, it first needs to establish a stable and peaceful government. But Israel is committed to the goal of peaceful coexistence with a neighboring Palestinian state.
    You actually made no attempt to support your claim with that post, only arguing around the periphery of it and offering a broad history of the conflict. So I would ask the same of you!

    Hamas policy is clear and written down: no Israel. Israel doesn't have a charter with verbiage about Palestine written into it, so we must judge their intent by their actions. And those actions are:
    1. They never annexed the "occupied territories", which means they never intended the occupation to be permanent or those territories to be part of Israel. This is in line with the UN act that created Israel and intended to create Palestine.
    2. They have unilaterally given occupied territories back to the recently established government of Palestine, so they can start to build a real state on it. That state is not yet ready for total sovereignty, but it most certainly exists.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 24, 2017
  11. Feb 27, 2009 #10

    Art

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    More b.s. Show me a source which accredits Palestine with the status of a country!! I can tell you now. You can't, because there is not one. NOBODY in the world but you makes this claim.
     
  12. Feb 27, 2009 #11

    russ_watters

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    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 24, 2017
  13. Feb 27, 2009 #12

    Art

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    This is going from the sublime to the ridiculous. You claimed a country called Palestine was created through the benevolence of Israel. Now prove it!! Show me one source that recognises a country called Palestine.

    The ruling Likud party in Israel has a charter which expressly states it will NEVER agree to the creation of the state of Palestine
    and as for annexing land it says
    http://www.palestinechronicle.com/view_article_details.php?id=14772
     
  14. Feb 27, 2009 #13

    russ_watters

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    I know you guys will pick and choose and ignore, but the relevant history on this question starts with the Oslo accords in 1993: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_Accords

    Of note:
    1. It's the first time Israel dealt with a Palestinian authority directly.
    2. It led to the "unilateral disengagement" policy, which is intended to give land back to Palestine for it to have a state on it.
    3. Partial sovereignty has been granted as a result.
    4. On the other side of the coin, Arafat himself and speaking for the PLO, recognized Israel's right to exist, but that recognition didn't survive Arafat.
     
  15. Feb 27, 2009 #14

    russ_watters

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    You are still not addressing the issue. You will get no further response from me until you do.
     
  16. Feb 27, 2009 #15

    Art

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    The issue is you made the outrageous claim there is a new country called Palestine created by the benevolence of Israel.
    I have asked you to substantiate this and you cannot.

    Mind you that's not surprising given Likud's declaration they will NEVER agree to an independent state of Palestine. I suggest you read their charter http://www.knesset.gov.il/elections/knesset15/elikud_m.htm .

    Perhaps then you can tell me why Hamas is beyond the pale for having a charter which refuses to recognise the right of Israel to exist whilst Likud who similarly refuse the right for Palestine to exist are an acceptable legitimate government? There is a certain irony about Israel demanding a non-state, whose existence they refuse to allow much less acknowledge, recognise Israel and it's right to exist.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 27, 2009
  17. Feb 27, 2009 #16
    all i know is a so called "COUNTRY" called "Israil" killing 1000's of inocent people. ok, jews as a whole arnt for this, but the ZIONIST's are.. openly. no argument there!, aslong as the ZIONISTS are in charge of Israil.. then the inocent palistinians will suffer and no-one will act untill it happens to them. selfish, ignorant, there are no words to deascribe the ones who try to justify this. any artical, anything at all, nothing can say this is right, im helpless as i cant do nothing to help them, nothing to influence the world, nothing at ALL, you can be happy all you want.. the massicar of muslims go unknown... no proof needed, the pure fact that the bbc and sky reject to show the truth and charity adverts, well all i see in this room is arguments that what is palistine and what is israil...

    when the jews where being outcasted in poland germany and so on, they fled to the arabic country, what happend from there i dont know, muslims alow other religions to practivce their religions and have a open invitation to the jews (prooved in many countrys, even soudi arabia ! ive been so i know, however from the situation now you can see that the "guest" has over run the "house" and started killing the owners, or more better put the occupiers...

    if someone asked for assitance and i let them into my home, and they slowly or quickly kicked me out, and then have the nerve to say "terrorist" when i try to fight to get it back, while no1 else is bothering to help me? and then when i try to get my house back the world looks at me as a trouble causer becouse they have their own homes and dont have this problem? then just for the them to look good they give me scraps, but then also make me suffer in a confined space where they have control of what and how much i eat? THIS IS CALLED OPRESSION... where have the people of oppresion critisment gone ?? there where all worried about the wimen with hijaab? but not of dead inocent wimen (hijaab or no hijaab) ?.

    no matter how long the outsiders (israil) occupied the home of palistine, you think they will give up their home? would you give up yours? and even so if you say arrogently yes... then where will you go? leaving homes? lifes? herratage? all behind? givng up everything they own and have and then what? this is turture... to be honest, i dnt care what people with theses stupid sugestions have to say, as they try to be peace makers and overlook the slaughter.

    whats with the weapons in israil? i hate to say it but even america has obama who loves israil and is i a dilemma, and looks like he chooses israil over whats right and wrong at the moment.

    thanks for reading, apologies for my spelling.
     
  18. Feb 27, 2009 #17

    tiny-tim

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    a state requires recognition and sovereignty

    For the actual charter (English translation), see http://www.knesset.gov.il/elections/knesset15/elikud_m.htm

    russ, your statement that Israel gave them the land to have a country may be largely correct, but the above passage twice states that that country has now been created … which is clearly not correct
    and again you say that a Palestinian state actually exists … while clearly "Palestine" has a parliament, its own health and other public services, and so on, it is at best an autonomous region, and certainly not a state

    one of the defining characteristics of a state is that it is recognised as such by other states … "Palestine" is not even recognised as a state by the Arab League … another is that it has sovereignty over its territory, which "Palestine" clearly doesn't
     
  19. Feb 27, 2009 #18

    Art

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    The Palestinian reconciliation talks seem to have gone well,

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7912068.stm

    One idea they are looking at is merging Hamas into the PLO. It doesn't say whether this means Hamas will cease to exist as a separate entity but the fact the major western powers seem ready to deal with any resultant unity government is a massive policy change.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 27, 2009
  20. Feb 27, 2009 #19
    I have no interest in selectively resounding the history, and would appreciate it if you could suppress your compulsion to make slanderous insinuations to the contrary.

    That said, I am well aware of the details of the Oslo Accords along with much of the history and current realities of this conflict. For instance, your characterization of the unilateral disengagement ignores the fact that Israel never had any legal right to the land they withdrew from, or any of the Palestinian territories. Furthermore, your argument also ignores Israel's ongoing colonization of Palestinian land in the West Bank, which is mentioned in the http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2007/100597.htm" I presented previously:

    You can find many more details of Israel's process of wiping Palestine off the map http://kibush.co.il/datapage.asp?lang=1%20&section=6" [Broken].

    And yeah, Arafat recognised Israel's right to exist, Palestinians got limited autonomy under Israeli martial law as Israel continues their conquest over Palestine, in flagrant denial of Palestine's right to exist. That got Fatah discredited in the eyes of the many Palestinians, and hence they lost the election to Hamas. So. again, one can't rightly expect Hamas to respect Israel's right to exist and be a good neighbor as long as Israel refuses to reciprocate by respecting Palestinians right to exist, which Israel has refused to do since long before Hamas existed.

    More accurately, a collection of semi-autonomous enclaves, those other than the Gaza Strip detailed in brown on http://www.btselem.org/Download/Separation_Barrier_Map_Eng.pdf" [Broken].

    Ironically, Hamas was working to form a unity government with Fatah from when they were elected back in 2006, as being new to governing Hamas needed all the help they could get. Yet, instead we condemned Palestine for electing Hamas because of it's terrorism, while ignoring the fact that Fatah has it's own terrorist wing too, proceed to arm Fatah to coup Hamas's victory, and condemned Hamas for surviving that coup attempt. Then Hamas attempts to hold a cease-fire with Israel, but Fatah terrorists shoot some rockets anyway, and then we further condemn Hamas for the rockets being shot, and even more absurdly for cracking down the organization which was shooting them. So we excuse Israel's attack Hamas, yet further condemn Hamas for resuming their own rocket fire in response, and cheer Israel for every last one of their attempts to terrorize Palestinians into submission. So now, we are back to where we were in 2006, Palestinians are working to form a unity government, with nothing accomplished over the years aside from Israeli settlement expansion in the West Bank, and much death and destruction on both sides. Not that any such agreements can end this conlifct as long as Israel refuses to respect Palestine's right to exist.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 4, 2017
  21. Feb 27, 2009 #20
    So you are in favor of continued conflict instead of making peace? That sounds like a plan....it's worked really well so far hasn't it?

    If the constant attacks from those who deny Isreal's right to exist were to cease, then I am quite positive that there would be no more retaliation attacks from Isreal in an effort to get those responsible. Those who seem to intentionally hide amongst the general public, probably because they want to maximize civilian casualties in order to get more public support for their cause.

    There needs to be a real solution to the conflict, and I can assure you that continued attacks are not going to solve anything.
     
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