Is HAARP a legitimate scientific installation or is it just a conspiracy theory?

[zoobyshoe]

HAARP: What are the facts?

This is a link to a fairly run-of-the-mill fear mongering type article about the dangers of HAARP. Pretty much the kind of stuff you ear on Coast to Coast.

Is anyone up on the real capabilities and limitations of this installation?

HAARP
Address:http://www.pacentro.com/HARRP/harrp.htm

-Zooby

 

[Ivan Seeking]

The HAARP Ionospheric Research facility will be a major Arctic facility for conducting upper atmospheric research. The facility will consist of two essential parts:

A high power transmitter and antenna array operating in the High Frequency (HF) range. When complete, the transmitter will be capable of producing up to 3.6 million Watts to an antenna system consisting of 180 crossed dipole antennas arranged as a rectangular, planar array.

A complete and extensive set of scientific instruments for observation of both the background auroral ionosphere and of the effects produced during active research using the transmitter system. Output from these instruments will be combined into an integrated data package which will be available world-wide in near real time over the internet.
During active ionospheric research, the signal generated by the transmitter system is delivered to the antenna array, transmitted in an upward direction, and is partially absorbed, at an altitude between 100 to 350 km (depending on operating frequency), in a small volume a few hundred meters thick and a few tens of kilometers in diameter over the site. The intensity of the HF signal in the ionosphere is less than 3 microwatts per cm2, tens of thousands of times less than the Sun's natural electromagnetic radiation reaching the Earth and hundreds of times less than even the normal random variations in intensity of the Sun's natural ultraviolet (UV) energy which creates the ionosphere. The small effects that are produced, however, can be observed with the sensitive scientific instruments installed at the HAARP facility and these observations can provide new information about the dynamics of plasmas and new insight into the processes of solar-terrestrial interactions.

http://www.haarp.alaska.edu/

 

[null]

Originally posted by Ivan Seeking
http://www.haarp.alaska.edu/

Ah you beet me to it
So much for being able to controll the weather and ability to destroy the mentally capabilites of my enemies
(back to the drawing boards ).

Besides the carefully crafted explanations regarding the capabilities of HAARP I'm fairly certain we can sleep sound tonight. Interesting information on that site though.

 

[dlgoff]

Ivan,

...and is partially absorbed, at an altitude between 100 to 350 km

What about the rest? It will be reflected. That's how HF radio signals get transmitted around the world.

Regards

 

[zoobyshoe]

Thanks, Ivan.

I think it's interesting that the data is (or was supposed to be) available on the web in near real time. I wonder who can get access to it and how?

The stated purpose of this research facility, though, raises more questions in my mind:

"...and these observations can provide new information about the dynamics of plasmas and new insight into the processes of solar-terrestrial interactions."

It isn't at all clear to me what is so important about this kind of information that it would merit such a large, expensive information gathering set up.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by null
Ah you beet me to it
So much for being able to controll the weather and ability to destroy the mentally capabilites of my enemies
(back to the drawing boards

Yes, the reason I asked about this is because I'm considering a carrear in Batman-style villainy.
This would be the perfect toy for that. ;)

 

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by dlgoff
What about the rest? It will be reflected. That's how HF radio signals get transmitted around the world.

Good question.

 

[Norval]

Hey Zoob, dlgoff also gave the answer.
Thats a lot of signal power going skipping about to and fro.

Wonder about resonating patterning and control, I do.

 

[LURCH]

Originally posted by zoobyshoe
Thanks, Ivan.

I think it's interesting that the data is (or was supposed to be) available on the web in near real time. I wonder who can get access to it and how?

The stated purpose of this research facility, though, raises more questions in my mind:

"...and these observations can provide new information about the dynamics of plasmas and new insight into the processes of solar-terrestrial interactions."

It isn't at all clear to me what is so important about this kind of information that it would merit such a large, expensive information gathering set up.

The project was also supposed to hold significant potential in understanding the effects of ionospheric disturbances on communications. Trouble shooting for the multi-billion-dollar/yr global communications industry sounds like a pretty good motive.

Didn't read all the hype on the link in the original post, but they mainly seemed to be "harping" on the environmental impact. But my favorite conspiracy theory about HAARP has always been that the government hopes to find ways to excite the plasma in the ionosphere to a superheated state and possibly even direct it, so that a concentration of superheated plasma can be focussed over a single area. This would be the "Strategic Missile Defense Shield" that the so-called Starwars program was striving towards. If we detect what appears to be an ICBM launch by a hostile country, we just microwave the ionosphere above their launch sites, and the missiles get incinerated while trying to climb out of the atmosphere. Debris falls back down on the agressor.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by LURCH
The project was also supposed to hold significant potential in understanding the effects of ionospheric disturbances on communications. Trouble shooting for the multi-billion-dollar/yr global communications industry sounds like a pretty good motive.

Indeed it does. This makes more sense to me than plasma study and solar/terrestrial interaction per se.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Originally posted by dlgoff
Ivan,

What about the rest? It will be reflected. That's how HF radio signals get transmitted around the world.

Regards

The intensity of the HF signal in the ionosphere is less than 3 microwatts per cm2, tens of thousands of times less than the Sun's natural electromagnetic radiation reaching the Earth and hundreds of times less than even the normal random variations in intensity of the Sun's natural ultraviolet (UV) energy which creates the ionosphere.

 

[dlgoff]

Ivan,

Oh, I don't think it would cause any kind of problem. I was just thinking that the signal might be able to be received around the world. Do you know what frequency they are going to use?

Regards

 

[Averagesupernova]

Reflecting in the ionosphere:

Several misinfos have been stated here. Radio wave are not 'reflected' off of the ionosphere. They are refracted, like light in a lens. Yeah, I know it is a nitpicky, but relevant. A radio wave for example at 1 MHZ may not be refracted at all by the ionosphere. It can be absorbed. Also, the higher the frequency, the more difficult it is to refract the signal back to the earth. It is less bent than a lower frequency. Also, the steeper the angle, (straight up being the steepest) the more difficult it is to refract back to the earth. There are several layers in the ionosphere and they all have their own characteristics on different frequencies. There have been books written on the subject. If you are really curious about it, some books can be obtained from the American Radio Relay League. It is an Amateur Radio organization. You may find more info here: http://www.remote.arrl.org/

 

[zoobyshoe]

Thanks A.S.

I didn't find that nitpicky at all. It seems an important distinction to me.

What constitutes the different layers of the ionosphere? This is something I wasn't aware of, that there were different layers within it.

What are your thoughts about HAARP? Have you been following what info they're gathering with it?

-Zooby

 

[Averagesupernova]

I haven't followed it very closely for a few years. I have a book on it that I picked up about 5 years ago. I believe it is filled with a huge amount of misinformation and gloom and doom predictions. I am sure that there are military motives behind it, but not everything is the huge conspiracy that people seem to believe.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Well, to be fair we get both a reflected and a refracted waves at any boundary layer [differing indices of refraction] where the incident angle is less than then critical angle - beyond which we see total reflection. Also, in the strictest sense there is only absorption [conversion to heat], and absorption followed by emission such that the average yields the familiar laws for reflections and refraction.

Since we are being picky.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I don't find this picky.

Originally posted by Ivan Seeking
Well, to be fair we get both a reflected and a refracted waves at any boundary layer [differing indices of refraction] where the incident angle is less than then critical angle - beyond which we see total reflection.

I take it the critical angle depends on the medium? Any idea what the critical angle for the ionosphere might be?

Also, in the strictest sense there is only absorption [conversion to heat], and absorption followed by emission such that the average yields the familiar laws for reflections and refraction.

Not sure I totally follow. You are saying that all cases of reflection/refraction are in fact absorbtion and re-emission, as opposed to authentic bouncing like a rubber ball off a wall?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Originally posted by zoobyshoe
I take it the critical angle depends on the medium? Any idea what the critical angle for the ionosphere might be?

Here is some information:

ionosphere
The atmospheric shell characterized by a high ion density. Its base is at about 70 or 80 kilometers and it extends to an indefinite height.
The ionosphere is classically subdivided into layers. Each layer, except the D-layer, is supposedly characterized by a more or less regular maximum of electron density. The D-layer exists only in the daytime. It is not strictly a layer at all, since it does not exhibit a peak of electron or ion density, starting at about 70 to 80 kilometers and merging with the bottom of the E-layer. The lowest clearly defined layer is the E-layer, occurring between 100 and 120 kilometers. The F1-layer and F2-layer occur in the general region between 150 and 300 kilometers, the F2-layer being always present and having the higher electron density. The existence of a G-layer has been suggested, but is questionable. The portions of the ionosphere in which these layers tend to form are known as ionosphere in which these layers tend to form are known as ionospheric regions, as in D-region, E-region, F-region, G-region. Sudden increases in ionization are referred to as sporadic, as in sporadic E or sporadic D. The above assumption that the ionosphere is stratified in the vertical into discrete layers is currently under serious question. Some evidence supports a belief that ion clouds are the basic elements of the ionosphere. Other investigations appear to reveal the ionosphere as a generally ionized region characterized by more or less random fluctuations of electron density.

http://roland.lerc.nasa.gov/~dglover/dictionary/i.html

Dispersion of Pulses Propagated Through the Ionosphere

The ionosphere acts as a dispersive medium to certain bands of radio frequencies, with the result that radio waves passing through the ionosphere are bent as a function of frequency, much as light is bent when passing through a prism. However, in the ionosphere, as opposed to a prism, the index of refraction is an inverse function of frequency, causing low frequencies to be bent more than higher ones. A particular case of interest is the dispersion encountered by a pulsed waveform, whose Fourier content is spread over a broad band of frequencies. Two cases illustrate this dispersion::


Sub-Ionospheric Propagation (Ground-to-Ground), whereby waves are transmitted from a point on the Earth's surface and are received at another point on the Earth's surface as a result of frequency-dependent ionospheric refraction. This phenomenon occurs principally in the HF band between about 3 and 30 MHz.


Trans-Ionospheric Propagation (Ground-to-Satellite), whereby waves are transmitted from a point on the Earth's surface and are received by a satellite located above the ionosphere, while undergoing frequency-dependent refraction during their passage through the ionosphere. This phenomenon occurs principally in the VHF band between about 30 and 300 MHz, with the effect lessening with increasing frequency.


These effects are illustrated below using a ground-based omnidirectional transmitter and both ground-based and satellite-based receivers (for clarity, both the curvature of the Earth and the ray paths are considerably exaggerated):...continued

http://www.skylondaworks.com/sc_dispr.htm

In the ionosphere, this variation is due to the varying electron content. In the neutral atmosphere, the index of refraction of electromagnetic waves is a function of temperature, pressure, and water content. The largest effect is due to the pressure change as a function of altitude in the atmosphere, producing a variation in index of refraction that is primarily vertical, but this effect is relatively easily modeled. continued with a technical explanation of some related concepts]

http://kreiz.unice.fr/magic/THEORY/theory.html

This is a good link.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/navy/docs/es310/propagat/Propagat.htm

I didn't spot a good number, but unless something funny happens, the index of refraction for the ionosphere must be between 1 and 1.0003 [between that of air and a pure vacuum]. This implies that the critical angle is a glancing angle...say 89 degrees from the perpendicular.

Not sure I totally follow. You are saying that all cases of reflection/refraction are in fact absorption and re-emission, as opposed to authentic bouncing like a rubber ball off a wall?

Correct. No bouncing balls in the quantum realm. I think one correct statement is that the atoms in the media absorb the incident photons, but if the energy of the photons isn't correct, the configuration is unstable and the atom immediately [almost immediately...say in 10^-31 seconds] releases a photon [not the same photon as far as we know] of equal energy in order to compensate. This is what actually slows the speed of light in that media as well. In between the atoms, photons travel at C_vac and follow a geodesic as determined by the local gravity; ie. they travel in "straight lines" less the effects of gravity.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Excellent information, Ivan. I hadn't ever looked into any of this, and it pretty much answers all my questions.

In so far as there are vaguaries and shifts, it makes much more sense that they would create such a big installation to see if they could pin things down more.

-Zooby

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Originally posted by zoobyshoe
I don't find this picky.

Neither did I, hence the smiley face.


Anyone who loves physics must by definition appreciate the input by Averagesupernova.

 

[mouseonmoon]

Selections from interview with
Dr. Dennis Papadopoulos
Professor of Physics, University of Maryland
Senior Science Advisor, H.A.A.R.P
(High Frequency Active Auroral Research Program)

http://www.pbs.org/tesla/dis/papad.html

explore!=this program will re-air in April on PBS
Pretty sure the prof would welcome questions
(might be able to get E-mail from UM website)

HAARP

HAARP is the latest ionospheric modification facility, ionospheric heater. It's nothing more than a radio station, which sends power at 10 megahertz — television, for example PBS, is at 100 megahertz. HAARP sends power at between 3 and 10 megahertz, and sends it up in the ionosphere. What happens is it operates like a microwave oven. As soon as it finds ionized particles, charged particles which start existing at 70 kilometers, this electric field shakes them up and down. When they shake up and down they collide with a lot of neutral particles and it makes them hotter. So, the region where you are focusing your energy... becomes hotter than the rest of the region. That changes the property of the medium.

There are three things I can think about Tesla when I'm talking about this particular project. The first ... we should think of Tesla every time we look at a microwave oven; again the radiation frequency of the microwave oven and the concept of the microwave oven was Tesla's.

The second thing is, it is a frequency transformer. Tesla, with the Tesla coil, changes one frequency to another frequency. What we are doing up there, we're taking at 5 megahertz a frequency which radiates in the ground and we transform it into 1 hertz, 5 hertz, 10 hertz, or whatever it is. So we have really a frequency transformer similar to what Tesla was thinking. Third, and most important, once we create the waves they propagate exactly the way Tesla conceived it through the Earth ionosphere waveguide.

Changing the Weather

Tesla proposed that it might be possible to modify the weather, by using radio waves. I believe that this is impossible. I mean if I take really the most powerful facility, in the world, which is actually the Voice of America, and I look at the power that it sends, it's about one billionth of the power in a tornado. So it is the equivalent of trying to have a fly stop a tank. It's impossible, energetically, with radio waves. There is another reason: radio waves do not couple to the neutral atmosphere, they go straight through. So it's impossible in terms of energy, it's impossible in terms of physics.

It's pure nonsense that any radio facility even a million times stronger than HAARP would be able to change the weather.

====
seems to me 'stronger' isn't the question?

seems Beggage(spelling)-was/is a 'nut'?

what do i know? nuttin' at all here...

=====
oh,just thought of Tesla-heated a slice of pizza-good cheeze-
Thanks Mr. Tesla!

 

[zoobyshoe]

Well, Mouse,

Actually, the tesla coil is not a frequency transformer at all. You get out the same frequency you put in. Tesla created very high frequencies by running the current across an air gap before they went into the primary coil.

It is, like all transformers, a voltage/current transformer. In the tesla coil the voltage goes way up and the current way down.

-Zoob

 

[mouseonmoon]

Zooby

so what's this guy talking about? What does a Tesla coil have to do with HAARP? No way I can respond-another 'expert' bites the dust?

====
The second thing is, it is a frequency transformer. Tesla, with the Tesla coil, changes one frequency to another frequency.
Dr. Dennis Papadopoulos
Senior Science Advisor, H.A.A.R.P
====

Maybe Ivan could invite the guy here for a little Q&A?


sounds interesting-
Cheers to Tesla!--reheated some quiche-very cheesey!

 

[zoobyshoe]

I have no idea what he's talking about.

Tesla, of course, built a big thing in Colorado called a "Magnifying Transmitter". He hoped to transmit electrical energy through the air and do away with power lines. My guess is that this guy has gotten the magnifying transmitter mixed up with the tesla coil in his mind.

I don't understand exactly how the magnifying transmitter worked, but there's plenty of stuff about it on the web, including the patents.

J.P.Morgan was funding it for Tesla, but he pulled out his support when he found out Tesla wanted to transmit all this electrical energy to everyone for free. Tesla had one working transmitter built, but I believe he fried it after just a few tests. Then he had no money to proceed and had to abandon the whole idea.

 

[mouseonmoon]

quote :
J.P.Morgan was funding it for Tesla, but he pulled out his support when he found out Tesla wanted to transmit all this electrical energy to everyone for free.
=====

Zooby, note also J.P. had his 'hands' in Buckminister Fuller's projects also...what else-he's going to 'protect' his' interests' right? So's his buddies...

excuse me-kinda lays the foundation for ...

====

Anyway, this guy is ?--Senior Science Advisor, H.A.A.R.P
etc. What then do you think of Beggage?(spelled) total nut?
Whom do you trust?

best

 

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by mouseonmoon
Anyway, this guy is ?--Senior Science Advisor, H.A.A.R.P
etc. What then do you think of Beggage?(spelled) total nut?
Whom do you trust?

It's just plain odd, really, that he would confuse the Tesla coil with the Magnifying Transmitter, and beyond that, I don't know what to say.