Entanglement, indeed, is at the core of the black hole information paradox. But it is not clear to me what exactly do you mean by "shed the entanglement".Zaphodpsi said:
I am perhaps wandering into areas I really do not understandsDemystifier said:
As I understand it when virtual particles are created they are entangled due to conservation requirements. If one of a pair is captured by the black hole this allows the other to move away as Hawkin radiation and this particle has a lifetime not limited by the uncertainty principle...that is it becomes a persistent particle. Entanglement would require information to cross the event horizon which I would have thought can not happen...so entanglement no longer applies. I am beginning to think. Am out of my depth!Demystifier said:
Thanks for your comment. I guess trying to analyse a layman explanation will lead to anomalies...stevendaryl said:
The particles remain entangled even when one of them crosses the horizon.Zaphodpsi said:
So that means that information can cross the horizon in both directions...! ?Demystifier said:
Zaphodpsi said:
You say they do not exist and yet they can influence 'real' systems...how do you define existence?weirdoguy said:
However you define "existence" is irrelevant. The virtual particles are a mathematical fiction and Hawking said that he developed the heuristic of "virtual particles" to describe in English something that really can only be described with math.Zaphodpsi said:
So how do you explain the Lamb shift?phinds said:
Zaphodpsi said:
The same goes with Cassimir effect.Guess that's told me! You should consider a career in teaching...weirdoguy said:Using mathematics of QFT with proper understanding and not some pop-sci heuristics
Zaphodpsi said:
Zaphodpsi said:
This seems to leave two possibilities - either the information does cross an horizon or when one of the pair meets or crosses the horizon this acts as a projection and the entanglement is broken.Zaphodpsi said:
Entanglement is only a superposition of correlated states. Let's call it |1>|10>2+|0>1|1>2 where the subscripts indicate the particles and the "0" and "1" labels are for the states of the two particles. So if your statement is correct, that the particles are entangled - and if the picture of virtual photons is correct too - then being captured by the BH is just another kind of "observation" which automatically breaks the entanglement. If you want to flesh the picture out with standard measurement theory then the entanglement doesn't really disappear, it gets extended to include the "observer", the BH, which has swallowed the particle. (To make any entanglement disappear, you need to assume collapse of the superposition.) So it is then |1>|10>BH+|0>1|1>BH. Measurement theory tells us that such a superposition would appear like a simple probability distribution of |1>|1 and |0>1| because we have lost any information about the second system. So the entanglement is either actually broken or apparently broken but actually extended. It depends on your interpretation.Zaphodpsi said:
Ah, I see the thread has grown - and now I see what the problem is. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of what entanglement is, I'm afraid. The famous Bell theorem certainly rules out any local, causal, definite model. Non-locality applies even where something at A must cause something at B, so that would mean information moving faster than light even in ordinary EPR experiments - unless our whole idea of things interacting locally is utterly wrong. Likewise causality is not really optional unless you are happy with time-travelling waves (The TI) or such-like. So "crossing the event horizon" is no different from the "faster-than-light" interpretations of ordinary entanglement. In fact that's exactly what it is. But in a no-collapse interpretation - see my other reply - such as MWI, there is no need for any information to be exchanges at all. The observed correlations are just the effect of including the macroscopic observer in the system. One again, using a BH as the observer makes not a blind bit of difference.Zaphodpsi said:
Derek P said:
Thanks for thanking the time to write your replies. I am clearly out of my depth but will remain an interested layman.Derek P said:
It depends on what do you mean by "information". This is a subtle topic which has more to do with interpretations of quantum mechanics than with black holes and Hawking radiation.Zaphodpsi said:
The Lamb shift can be calculated with the aid of virtual particles. But it doesn't mean that virtual particles really exist. To explain this, I often use the following metaphor. Suppose that you have 1 apple. You can calculate this asZaphodpsi said:
phinds said:
akvadrako said:
Hawking radiation is a theoretical type of radiation that is predicted to be emitted by black holes. It is named after physicist Stephen Hawking, who first proposed its existence in 1974. The radiation is thought to be created when pairs of particles, one with positive energy and one with negative energy, are separated by the strong gravitational pull of a black hole. The negative energy particle falls into the black hole, while the positive energy particle is able to escape and is observed as Hawking radiation.
Hawking radiation is thought to cause black holes to slowly lose mass over time. This is because the escaping particles carry away energy from the black hole, causing it to shrink. Eventually, if a black hole continues to emit Hawking radiation, it will evaporate completely.
Entanglement is a phenomenon in quantum mechanics where two particles become connected in such a way that the state of one particle is dependent on the state of the other, regardless of the distance between them. This means that if the state of one particle is changed, the state of the other particle will also change instantaneously, even if they are separated by large distances.
Hawking radiation and entanglement are related through a concept called "black hole complementarity." This theory suggests that information about the particles that fall into a black hole is encoded on its event horizon, while at the same time, the entangled particles outside the black hole also contain this information. This connection between the particles inside and outside the black hole is thought to allow for the escape of Hawking radiation.
The existence of Hawking radiation and entanglement has significant implications for our understanding of black holes and the laws of physics. It challenges the idea that information is lost when it enters a black hole, and it also suggests a connection between quantum mechanics and gravity. Further research and experiments in these areas could lead to a better understanding of the fundamental laws of the universe.