Share Page References from Heimskringla for Good Parts

[Evo]

I've been enjoying your recent posts on Hindu legend a lot.
I could listen to some more of these stories
or, if you want to change
I would be interested if you would propose something we could
read (and give me the link so i can find it)

you some times say "you or Arildno pick something"
but you could take a turn

I'd love to find something. You may be sorry though, I do have a very warped sense of what is interesting.

 

[marcus]

I'd love to find something. You may be sorry though, I do have a very warped sense of what is interesting.

I'll take a chance
warp away

 

[marcus]

I'm enjoying the sporadic booktalk so if you don't target some
passage or other soon (and give a link) I will eventually suggest something.

BTW you must have found a link for procopius and I would actually like to look at the same version----especially if it is not a long PDF download---as a refresher.
Ive forgotten many an outrageous chapter of the Secret History.

so give me the link you found, if you wish


were you ever in florence, if so you know San Miniato del Monte up on a hill across the Arno from the main part of the city
there is a nice story about when some medieval Germans stole the bones.

 

[Evo]

BTW you must have found a link for procopius and I would actually like to look at the same version----especially if it is not a long PDF download---as a refresher.
Ive forgotten many an outrageous chapter of the Secret History.

so give me the link you found, if you wish

I will post that tomorrow. I'd love to discuss it with you.

I have been crying my eyes out watching the BBC/AE movies of "Lorna Doone" & "Pride & Prejudice" for the 100th time tonight. I love historic pieces.

My daughter will not watch the BBC/AE version of "Lorna Doone" since we watched the 1922 silent movie version of it together a couple of years ago. She prefers the 1922 version. :(

I've found watching movies of the classics with a teenager much easier than reading together. We can devote 2 hours of time with no problem. Sometimes she prefers to read the books.

Sorry, off topic, but that's what has been keeping me tied up.

were you ever in florence, if so you know San Miniato del Monte up on a hill across the Arno from the main part of the city
there is a nice story about when some medieval Germans stole the bones.

I've been to Italy a few times, but never there. What is the story of the bones?

 

[marcus]

Jennifer Ehle, Colin firth, Crispin Bonham-Carter
and who ever did Mrs. Bennet was wonderful (and mr. bennet too)

but also the Emma thompson version of Sense and Sensibility
has some wonderful scenes and holds up very well
(Hugh Grant does a good job with one of the roles)

You indicated, I think, that you had never read Babette's'
feast, there is a Danish film made from Isaak Dinesen's story
of that name

I identify with several characters in the film of
Babette's feast----had better let you guess if you ever rent the
video of it, rather than say. It is available with the original soundtrack
and English subtitles which is probably better than dubbed into english
in this case as the actors have finely fitting voices to their roles.

 

[Evo]

Sorry, I have been too busy to read much the last few days. I have checked into Babette's feast and have read so many wonderful reviews of it that I plan to get it before the end of the month.

So marcus, you've seen the Pride & Prejudice with Colin Firth? I think he was splendid as Mr Darcy. I checked the credits on my DVD, but I cannot tell who Mr & Mrs Bennett were played by. The actress that played Mrs Bennett was superb.

Ok, let me do some reading and I will post again in a bit.

 

[marcus]

Ok, let me do some reading and I will post again in a bit.

sure, at your convenience and pleasure

Mrs. Bennet was played by Alison Steadman

here is a complete cast listing:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0112130/

BTW I was highly entertained by Holly's Supper thread---though did not read all. and by some other PF threads, can't recall which right now.

I recently saw posted a link to the complete movie script for a movie I like called "As good as it gets"

http://www.allmoviescripts.com/scripts/10272177763f326892cd160.html

I was thinking about teenage daughters and how they acquire the habit of reading good literature. (you know my notion of "good" literature----paragons like Jane Austen, Snorri, Procopius, Isaak Dinesen, herodotus there must be some pattern here. some smilie is needed, but which, maybe the eye-rolling one)

By the way did you like the English Patient?

I wonder if the movie script for it is on-line.

You see a teenager who loved the movie English Patient might have an easier time reading the movie script for it than the Michael Ondaatje novel.
Sometimes novels are a great bore. And with the script it meshes immediately with one's visual memory, and it is like reading a play.

I used to love to read plays when i was early teens.

Your reading with me (which I do enjoy) is obviously of less importance than reading with your daughter. Mother and daughter should be able to share certain novels or plays. what novels or plays do you both like?
I mean besides Pride and Prejudice?

the Emma thompson Sense and Sensibility is terrific----if anything better cinema than P and P.

well I will leave it there for the time being. post when you have time and feel like it

 

[marcus]

Alfonso the Wise, King of Castille and Leon

More people should know the poetry and stories of the european middleages

and in particular should know about Alfonso X, called the Wise (1221-1284)

he wrote his poems---the Cantigas---in Galician-Portuguese which was the language that all poets and troubadours preferred, in the iberian peninsula, at that time (except the Catalonians who are always different)

here is a link that tells about this and has further links to entertaining short poems in Galician Portuguese from the 1200s, translated into english by a clever translator named Zenith.

http://portugal.poetryinternational.org/cwolk/view/23086

 

[pace]

Are you finished reading Heimskringla and stuff?

I somehow wanted to read more of this after I did some philosophy studying. I've got Heimkringla, younger and older Edda(in their' original language, unbelivably cool!), and some sagas eg Egil(the dude who went over to a guy when he was 5 to chop the other guys head off because he was insulting(It's quite early in the book.)

 

[marcus]

I would like to discuss Egil saga with you.
I believe he was an exceptional man which we should all admire and look up to.

Also one time at a feast there was a man that Egil didnt like so
he drank a lot of whey and went and stood by the man's chair and
puked on him for quite a long time.
the man was so shocked and outraged that he couldn't move to get
out of the way.


Egil had an unusually thick skull which was one reason he was so good in fights. They would always try to split each others skulls with an ax
because it was the most satisfying way to get the job done
but Egil's skull didn't split easily.

the saga of Egil is highly factual-----200 years after he lived they actually found his skull beside a church and it was in fact thick just as the story says---so there's proof if anyone is skeptical!

also the Egil Saga is a great literary masterpiece the equal of Njal Saga
but thankfully much much shorter!

we should all read it several times

 

[pace]

Ah, the good old days!

I've got Egil, Gunnlaugs, Kormaks, and Lakdøla sagas on my shelf. Easily borrow more from the library if I wanted.
I also managed to read 1/3 of the Heimskringla once, but I were too young and it went too slow for me.

 

[marcus]

Ah, the good old days!

I've got Egil, Gunnlaugs, Kormaks, and Lakdøla sagas on my shelf. Easily borrow more from the library if I wanted.
I also managed to read 1/3 of the Heimskringla once, but I were too young and it went too slow for me.

When I looked back at heimskringla a few weeks ago I realized somewhat to my surprise that all the parts I like were in Olaf Trygvason Saga. So I would have to admit that the book is too long

I would be happy to look again at Egil
I have not handled the book for years and I know it has some good parts that I would like to read again. I just fetched my copy and will keep it by the computer in case you tell me about some part.
I have the Penguin Classics edition translated by Palsson and Edwards.

Do you think Egil is online?

Just to keep up with you---you mentioned the little argument Egil had over a ball-game when he was 6 years or so. In my edition that is chapter 40
and the interesting thing is that his father Skallagrim was not happy with what he did but his mother was glad and said "He has the makings of a Viking, when he is older you must give him a ship."

so then Egil (who was precocious as a poet) made up a verse

My mother wants a price paid
To buy my proud-oared ship.
Standing high in the stern
I'll scour for plunder...

-------------
pace, this is pretty good, even in English translation, and rings true for what we know of him and what he became. His verses were not as boring as many of his contemporaries.

 

[Evo]

Egil's Saga

http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/egil/

I had started reading the Laxdaela Saga last month, but got too busy. Are either of you familiar with it? Is it worth the read. It's unusual because it is from a woman's perspective.

http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/Laxdaela/

 

[marcus]

Egil's Saga

http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/egil/

I had started reading the Laxdaela Saga last month, but got too busy. Are either of you familiar with it? Is it worth the read. It's unusual because it is from a woman's perspective.

http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/Laxdaela/

No kidding! Tell a little about it. Is she the narrator or a major character or what

 

[marcus]

Evo I'd like to hear your perspective on the book.
Pretend you have to sell me on the idea of reading it.'
I already like the idea that it is about a icelander woman
I think the women were very important in shaping the mind of those
poeple and one reason that have good stories and'
so that is unusual. If what you say is right it is'
from a womans viewpoint abnd that is extemely interesting because
a way into her mind
but is it boring. a lot of old books are.
what has it got going for it. I want to hear this from you evo
and not have to look first myself
(appropriate smiley whatever that is)

 

[Evo]

Since I have only just begun to read it, I am going to cheat and piece together some information and reviews to entice you.

Laxdaela is an Icelandic saga that takes place in the years 850-1100. What makes Laxdaela saga different from other Icelandic sagas is that a woman plays the main role.

Originally written in Icelandic (Old Norse) sometime around the year 1245 A.D. The author is unknown, although some scholars contend that the author was probably a woman.

The LAXDAELA SAGA is one of the best of the sagas, ranking with THE BURNT NJAL SAGA as one of the greatest works to come from the Viking world -- and the greatest literary works of the 12th-14th centuries from anywhere. Its numerous cast of characters (I count 189 names in the book's helpful Glossary of Proper Names, about 40 of which begin with "Thor") boggles the mind. Just remember, these were real people, and their names are enshrined in the history of Iceland by their descendents.

It takes several generations of ambushes, conniving marriages and bloody divorces, and even the introduction of Christianity around A.D. 1000 before the main story gets under way, namely the story of Gudrun Osvifs-daughter and her four marriages. This is no blushing romance: Look at Gudrun the wrong way, and start drafting your will! Her boyfriend Kjartan Olafsson dallies too long in Norway, and she marries his cousin Bolli out of spite. Then, when he returns, she does everything she can to urge Bolli to kill him and his men. A series of internecine feuds breaks out, and it takes more than twenty years for the bad blood to be drained off.

Life was cheap in medieval Iceland. The anonymous author of this saga was, however, a great writer who identified closely with the people and events that went into the making of this sometimes barbaric, always awe-inspiring masterpiece.

Links to the above in order

http://www.fva.is/~harpa/forn/english/e_laxd/e_laxd.html

http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/Laxdaela/

 

[marcus]

It takes several generations of ambushes, conniving marriages and bloody divorces, and even the introduction of Christianity around A.D. 1000 before the main story gets under way, namely the story of Gudrun Osvifs-daughter and her four marriages. This is no blushing romance: Look at Gudrun the wrong way, and start drafting your will! Her boyfriend Kjartan Olafsson dallies too long in Norway, and she marries his cousin Bolli out of spite. Then, when he returns, she does everything she can to urge Bolli to kill him and his men. A series of internecine feuds breaks out, and it takes more than twenty years for the bad blood to be drained off.

http://www.fva.is/~harpa/forn/english/e_laxd/e_laxd.html

http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/Laxdaela/

this is good: ambushes, conniving marriages and bloody divorces,
the ABC of Icelandic life . This buildup carries conviction and persuades me to read the book.


nice style, regardless of whether you penned it or chose it to copy

 

[Evo]

I've enjoyed the little that I've read so far. I'd really like to know how Thorunn the Horned got her name. I love the descriptive names Thorolf "Bladder-skull" ?? I would enjoy just hearing the stories behind the names.

 

[marcus]

Evo by coincidence Pace and I were just talking about Egil Skallagrim's son who was an excellent poet even from a young age
and it turns out that Egil is a character in the Laxdale Saga
and he and his daughter appear in Chapter XXII----for it is Egil's daughter Thorgerd that Olaf Peacock marries around year 960. Here are Olaf and his father talking:

-----exerpts from Laxdale chapters 22 and 23-----

When Olaf had been in Iceland a month, and spring came on, father and son took counsel together. "I will, Olaf," said Hoskuld, "that a match should be sought for you,... There is a man named Egil. He is Skallagrim's son. He lives at Borg, in Borgarfjord. This Egil has a daughter who is called Thorgerd, and she is the woman I have made up my mind to woo on your behalf,...

...It is told how one day the father and son, Hoskuld and Olaf, went forth from their booth to find Egil. Egil greeted them well,... Hoskuld now broaches the wooing on behalf of Olaf, and asks for the hand of Thorgerd. She was also at the Thing. Egil took the matter well,...

...Hoskuld said, "I wish, Egil, that you would talk this over with your daughter."

Egil said that that should be done. Egil now went away to find his daughter, and they talked together: "There is here a man named Olaf, who is Hoskuld's son, and he is now one of the most renowned of men. Hoskuld, his father, has broached a wooing on behalf of Olaf, and has sued for your hand; and I have left that matter mostly for you to deal with. Now I want to know your answer. But it seems to me that it behoves you to give a good answer to such a matter, for this match is a noble one."

Thorgerd answered, "I have often heard you say that you love me best of all your children, but now it seems to me you make that a falsehood if you wish me to marry the son of a bondswoman, however goodly and great a dandy he may be,"...

...Hoskuld bade him have his own way. Olaf now dressed himself in this way, that he had on the scarlet clothes King Harald had given him, and a golden helmet on his head, and the gold-adorned sword in his hand that King Myrkjartan had given him. Then Hoskuld and Olaf went to Egil's booth. Hoskuld went first, and Olaf followed close on his heels. Egil greeted him well, and Hoskuld sat down by him, but Olaf stood up and looked about him. He saw a woman sitting on the dais in the booth, she was goodly and had the looks of one of high degree, and very well dressed. He thought to himself this must be Thorgerd, Egil's daughter. Olaf went up to the dais and sat down by her. Thorgerd greeted the man, and asked who he was. Olaf told his own and his father's name, and "You must think it very bold that the son of a slave should dare to sit down by you and presume to talk to you!"

She said, "You cannot but mean that you must be thinking you have done deeds of greater daring than that of talking to women."

Then they began to talk together, and they talked all day. But nobody heard their conversation...

-------end exerpt, chapters 22 and 23 of Laxdale---

So look a connection between Egil saga and Laxdale! these are real people and often real events and even some the actual things they said were thought interesting enough by our fellow humans, these Island people, to be remembered.

One small detail. the storyteller makes a point of telling us that "Egil greeted them well..." and "Egil took the matter well..." especially I think because Egil had a lot of attitude and was sometimes witty at the wrong moment. So the listeners, who know Egil's manners from other stories must be assured that this time everything went smoothly. Or so I think.

It might be interesting to browse through both these sagas and see if any other common characters or events show up

 

[Evo]

How wonderful that the two sagas overlap! That should help flesh out the stories. I will definitely add Egil's Saga to my reading.

The stories are so wild that it is hard to believe that they really happened (for the most part) and the people are real. I love immersing myself into these "other worlds". You had to have your wits about you back then.

I am thoroughly enjoying this.

 

[marcus]

that old translation from 1893 of Egil doesn't do it for me

http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/egil/
it is by an English clergyman Rev. WC Greene or somebody like that
and his language is antique and not direct

I am glad of all the other links.
Maybe Evo you could find the Penguin Egil in the library?
It is one book that is worth owning in my view, but then tastes differ.

I just finished reading Chapter 71 about a dinnerparty Egil had at Armod's house.
there was a girl waiting table who made up a poem on the spur of the moment to persuade Egil to stop drinking at a certain point, but it didnt work (you see even waitresses made 8-line alliterative stanzas in those days or somehow in the story they managed to)
. then after he was totally drunk Egil made up a couple of stanzas himself.
a lot of other things happened that evening too, spoil it to explain.
the penguin translates the poems well----that 1890s clergyman doesn't always cut the mustard.
You'll see.

we must find Palsson and Edwards translation of Egil, or else Evo get hardcopy.

 

[marcus]

I looked and could not find Palsson/Edwards online but however found
a synopsis of the plot of Egil Saga written in 2003 by someone named
McKenny who uses the Palsson/Edwards and gives page references to it and exerpts from it.

this is the readers digest Egil:
http://www.geocities.com/solarguard/germanic/egil.html
the whole story in two pages by Michael McKenny

 

[Evo]

that old translation from 1893 of Egil doesn't do it for me

http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/egil/
it is by an English clergyman Rev. WC Greene or somebody like that
and his language is antique and not direct

I had the same concerns, I almost didn't post that link. I have found that the translation can make or break a story. I will see what else is available.

I just finished reading Chapter 71 about a dinnerparty Egil had at Armod's house.
there was a girl waiting table who made up a poem on the spur of the moment to persuade Egil to stop drinking at a certain point, but it didnt work (you see even waitresses made 8-line alliterative stanzas in those days or somehow in the story they managed to)
. then after he was totally drunk Egil made up a couple of stanzas himself.

I know, these people make me feel really unworthy. I seldom am able to break into prose that would be worthy of repeating. I do, however, constantly create songs at the drop of a hat, perhaps I am not so untalented after all?

a lot of other things happened that evening too, spoil it to explain.
the penguin translates the poems well----that 1890s clergyman doesn't always cut the mustard.
You'll see.

we must find Palsson and Edwards translation of Egil, or else Evo get hardcopy.

I accept the challenge. Let me see what I can find.

 

[marcus]

BTW I looked in the penguin Egil for the same event
Olaf Peacock wooing Egil's daughter
and found it on page 201, chapter 78, of my edition.
In this case Laxdale gives more detail and Egil saga just the bare fact.

I I do, however, constantly create songs at the drop of a hat, .

this is a good thing to be able to do

when do we get some more comment on Egil?

 

[Evo]

Ok, I am back & will continue where we left off in my next post.

I loved what you wrote about your aunt, I wish you had left it.

marcus, I hope you don't mind, we had discussed other creation myths and I thought this was a cute one. It's from the Ainu people of Japan. There are a bunch of animal myths.

I can just picture the person eating the otter head.

I can delete it if you feel it's too off topic.

Ainu Legends

The Ainu believe that the world rests on the back of a giant trout, that otters caused human beings to be flawed, and that seeing an owl fly across the face of the moon at night is cause for great trepidation.
continued...

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/hokkaido/legends.html

Trout

How the humble trout carries the world upon its back

"Before God made the world, there was nothing but swamp to be seen, in which, however, there dwelt a very large trout. This trout was indeed a mighty fish, for his body reached from one end of the swamp to the other. Now, when the Creator produced the Earth, He made this creature to become its foundation. There lies the living trout beneath the world, taking in and sending out the waters of the sea through his mouth. When he sucks the water in, the ebb of the tide takes place, but when he sends it out the tide flows"...

"The trout upon whose back the world is founded is the cause of tidal waves. Every now and again he takes in a vast quantity of water, and then with an extraordinary effort shoots it out of his mouth in one mighty blow of his breath. It is this which makes the tidal waves.

Continued…

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/hokkaido/legtro.html

Otter

Why it is responsible for man's imperfect nature, and why you should be careful about eating its head

"The otter's head must not lightly be used as an article of food, for unless people are very careful they will, if they eat it, become as forgetful as that creature. And hence it happens that when an otter has been killed the people do not usually eat the head.

"But if they are seized with a very strong desire for a feast of otter's head, they may partake thereof, providing proper precautions are taken. When eating it the people must take their swords, knives, axes, bows and arrows, tobacco boxes and pipes, trays, cups, garden tools, and everything they possess, tie them up in bundles with carrying slings, and sit with them attached to their heads while in the act of eating ... If this method be carefully adhered to, there will be no danger of forgetting where a thing has been placed, otherwise loss of memory will be the result."

whole article -

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/hokkaido/legott.html

 

[marcus]

"But if they are seized with a very strong desire for a feast of otter's head, they may partake thereof, providing proper precautions are taken. When eating it the people must take their swords, knives, axes, bows and arrows, tobacco boxes and pipes, trays, cups, garden tools, and everything they possess, tie them up in bundles with carrying slings, and sit with them attached to their heads while in the act of eating ... If this method be carefully adhered to, there will be no danger of forgetting where a thing has been placed, otherwise loss of memory will be the result."

whole article -

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/hokkaido/legott.html

I must have eaten the otter's head last week because I forgot about Heimsk. thread and just returned, find (to my considerable delight) these Ainu myths.

It reminds me of HUNDRED YEARS OF SOLITUDE the episode of insomnia which the whole town of Macondo got
and they were enjoying it a lot, finding congenial ways to pass the sleepless nights, and never getting tired or sleepy but just evermore alert to the present

but then the past and future faded, along with memory and purpose, and they found they had to start tying labels on all their implements to remind them of what they were for. and a label tied to the cow to remind them to milk it

I hope you and your daughter are well and are finding books you can both enjoy reading, or films. lonliness across generations--and discontinuity of the cultural things one loves---are the most severe divides and probably the reason why everyone wishes so hard to have grandchildren---because with them at least one hopes to be able to share what are the deepest satisfactions in life, like kiteflying and hot chocolate.

 

[hypnagogue]

bump...

 

[Evo]

I was re-reading this thread earlier tonight, glad you thought to move it here. I assume you are the busy history fairy here?

 

[arildno]

Oh, I had totally forgotten about this thread.