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Hello,Though I am a CFD Engineer, I am interested in knowing about

  1. Jun 7, 2010 #1

    Though I am a CFD Engineer, I am interested in knowing about "MIND". The question might seem silly to some of you, But, I feel it is philosophical question.

    Can mind exist without physical brain?. That is when some one is dead / Suffering from brain dead?
  2. jcsd
  3. Jun 8, 2010 #2
    Re: Mind

    The result of what experiment would show that mind is not limited to bodily existence? Devise an experiment that could disprove that mind exists independent of the body and you've got your answer. If you cannot think of such an experiment then you might be saying that mind is not empirically observable; that mind is known only by change in things. Kind of like a magnetic or electrical field and even the wind which cannot be seen but is described as that invisible force which causes things to move.

    First you must be detailed in what you mean by "mind."
  4. Jun 9, 2010 #3
    Re: Mind

    Thanks for your response.

    I was explained by a psychatrist that "Mind is a biological fuction of the brain". He also added that the thoughts (All emotions, Ideas etc.,) are the byproducts of chemical reaction and electrical impulses taking place in the brain.

    I interpret this mind as a part of memory (One of the dimensions of mind). For example, I am aware that my name is "XYZ" and my parents are "A&B". I studied in the "X" college etc., Incase I go brain dead / die, As you explained like the magnetic field or some waves, Does this memory remains in the space and catch up with other human brain (New born baby / Some one)? I emphasize the memory here.
  5. Jun 9, 2010 #4
    Re: Mind

    Do you believe the psychiatrist experiences your mind in the same manner as you? Big difference I'd say.

    Do you experience your mind or are you mind? Again. In what, of a variety of contexts, do we use the term "mind?" How is it known?

    How is it that you are aware? I think because when there is change that a sense of duration timer, memory as you point out, is triggered that counts down and responds to changes in structure. These timers are not present/functional while unconscious or asleep. There are many functions in even a single cell slime mold that function as timers and so when its actions are observed, memory becomes apparent. Even in a single cell.

    Now as to the duration of mind or any bodily outputs. Most ephemeral are photons. http://www.livescience.com/health/090722-body-glow.html" [Broken] in the visible light spectrum. So these travel and interact in the continuum forever and a day as we react within the continuum of the universe to others.

    Cosmologists are able to image reflections of cosmological explosions and events that are reflected and in essence see back in time by use of those virtual mirrors. A mirror 1005 light years away would only now be returning the reflection of events happening around 0 AD or so. If there is something in the concept of the butterfly effect then these very small energy packets could resonate with us and cause great changes.

    Being persuaded in the direction of http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/panpsychism/" [Broken], I'll say that every thing, every atom, electron, neutron, etc. is fundamentally a little piece of mind.:biggrin:

    And with that we are out of biology and into philosophy.:cool:
    Last edited by a moderator: May 4, 2017
  6. Jun 13, 2010 #5


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    Re: Mind

    It IS a philosophical question. Philosophers beat each other up about whether the mind and brain are separate things, while biologists generally just focus on the brain and specific functions of the brain.

    Because of this, I'm going to recommend this thread be moved to philosophy. It might or might not wind up there, but I think the discussion is more appropriate for that forum than biology given the specific nature of this question.
  7. Jun 13, 2010 #6
    Re: Mind

    I just wanted to give attention to and share with PF's Scientific Habits of the Mind from Howard Hughes Medical Institute. This isn't about philosophy.:biggrin: It's a coolscience resource.:biggrin:

    Also, if you look to the left of that website then you will discover for teachers a valuable resource. Here are a couple from there.

    Project 2061's
    Chapter on Habits of Mind lesson plans
    Example one:
    Lesson plans to teach habits of mind

    Scientifically speaking, the mind can't exist without a brain so it isn't a philosophical issue as far as I am concerned.
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2010
  8. Jun 13, 2010 #7
    Re: Mind

    Thanks for the replies...

    I do believe that Philosophers fight for the philosophy of mind, from their own minds and it has always been subjective. Where as Science deals with the Mind scientifically, backed up by experiments and proof.

    A question to minorwork

    You say that the duration timers (memory) are not present when we are unconscious / Asleep. Then how do we remember "Dreams" the next day (Atleast in bits and pieces). Where does this dreams come from?
  9. Jun 13, 2010 #8
    Re: Mind

    I've done a lot of research over the last year on this topic.:biggrin: I have to go digging for it. It might take me a few days but I have been very interested in the Mind/Brian.:biggrin: Here are the most recent ones.

    1. The Johns Hopkins University - The Zanvyl Krieger
    Mind/Brain Institute
    - Systems, Cognitive, and
    Computational Neuroscience

    2. L'Oreal Young Scientist Centre at the Royal Institution of Great

    Last edited by a moderator: May 4, 2017
  10. Jun 13, 2010 #9
    Re: Mind

    Unconscious, subconscious, semiconscious, conscious, supra-conscious. Of these, I'll say a dream is an example of a semiconscious state. Some circuits are active that amplify the minds images. It is just that they are weak compared to the conscious state. Some are sourced by what Jung called archetypes and I'll call imprinted schemes from childhood.

    In any case a dreamless sleep, a drunk blackout, a strong blow to the head (my personal experience) brings memories of a smooth progression until suddenly things are not smooth. I look up from a hamburger grill joint bar at noon and see a hospital room about 10 at night with no lapse of consciousness as far as I experience and duration timers out of sync or inoperative is one way of speaking of memory and its levels of establishment.

    Waking life can produce illusions. Hard because of the overpowering strength of the overall physical world's inputs. Asleep midst relative quiet, things get forgotten and remembered just as in waking life. The relationships are self generated from memories and lack the volume of the physical world. This is not a 1 to 1 correspondence. There are many types of dreams. Falling dreams show that circuits associated with lack of support are still in the loop when a thought progression leaves one without support as in falling, when if the circuit was not operating and other, strictly recording circuits, were operating, then one could experience the weightlessness of a gravity free experience and remember because the program had not jumped to the fear of falling loop for as many passes as it took to wake up, but record the flying memories free of gravity. Not too many ifs is there?

    And where is the objective verification? In the log book of your dreams. Not very objective but when related to a second log of waking life, date comparisons can relate occurences. Especially if a disciplined tutorial in concentration is being explored for veracity.

    Can intent alter brain circuits? There is no doubt. Used to be I couldn't fly a plane and now I can. Play guitar like Segovia. ... OK, not like Segovia. Type. Drive a buggy in a coal mine.

    How far can we take this alteration? Can we jumper around the amygdala and get rid of being so jumpy at loud noises and lack of support? Those being the instinctual fears of a newborn infant. If we can, should we?
  11. Jun 14, 2010 #10
    Re: Mind

    You got your wish though I disagree with you, Moonbear. If nothing else, it should be moved to at least the Medical Sciences, though I prefer it return to the Biology Forum. I'd request that if I knew how to do it. Maybe you might consider doing it for me or someone else. Or tell me how to do it. Or is it only science advisors or retired ones that are allowed? Am I not allowed to protest when I *think* a mistake has been made?

    Like I said to cfddjk, "Scientifically speaking, the mind can't exist without a brain so it isn't a philosophical issue as far as I am concerned." That statement in itself is considered to be a part of "CRITICAL-RESPONSE SKILLS" from Chapter 12: HABITS OF MIND which is by American Association for the Advancement of Science. Look at the bottom of the page of the website below. Do you see any philosophy mentioned therein that document, Moonbear? I sure don't. Basically you appear to me that you are now saying that science is philosophy. If that is the case then I wholeheartedly disagree with you. http://www.project2061.org/publications/sfaa/online/chap12.htm
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2010
  12. Jun 14, 2010 #11
    Re: Mind

    You certainly have the right to disagree on anything, but if you ask deep enough, science becomes philosophy. If you dig deep enough into a problem, science also becomes philosophy. The fact that this thread landed here means you've asked a deep question(the mind/body problem).

    This is a physics forum and the question "what is a physical brain or physical "anything"?" isn't satisfactory resolved. It's a matter of interpretation and the possible 'answers' to your questions might range from "there is no brain prior to a contextual, environmental decoherence" to "there in no brain prior to a measurement/observation" to "your brain splits into different brains a trillion times per second" or "the physical separability of brains is an illusion". The common sense picture of reality is gone from physics.

    In this sense, what a 'brain' is is also a philosophical question. Hopefully this clears your confusion.
  13. Jun 14, 2010 #12
    Re: Mind

    Buddhism sometimes refers to mind as self consciousness.
  14. Jun 14, 2010 #13
    Re: Mind

    GeorgCantor, I'm not confused. My background is in science! Obviously, you are confused. From the U.S. National Academy of Sciences. Definitions of Evolutionary Terms:

    Science isn't Philosophy! :biggrin:
  15. Jun 14, 2010 #14
    Re: Mind

    That's true, but the fundamentals of science are philosophy. Science isn't a magical book of complete knowledge, what is known is no more than 0.1% of all that which is unknown. Ask your question in a more rigid way, and you'll land in philosophy.

    My 3-year-old daughter recentely asked me "Dad, why did i get sick?" to which i replied "because of a virus". She continued "Why are there viruses?". Could you give a thouroughly satisfactory answer to this 3-year-old's question?
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2010
  16. Jun 14, 2010 #15
    Re: Mind

    You can DO philosophy on science, math, language, ethics, law, etc. Philosophy is asking questions of the type that come natural to a child in a manner that is natural to lawyers. Philosophy is very much at work in the interpretations of Quantum Mechanics that do their best to be rid of consciousness as a factor and what Quantum Mechanics means relating to the Classical Newtonian universe. I know of 9 interpretations. Among them Copenhagen, Extreme Copenhagen (my fav), Many Worlds, Bohm, etc. Science is inextricably caught up in meaning and science.
  17. Jun 14, 2010 #16
    Re: Mind

    I dont think so. Whatever happens after one dies, if anything, would probably be totally incomprehensible to us as humans.
  18. Jun 14, 2010 #17
    Re: Mind

    And whatever happens now is also incomprehensible to us, while we are humans.
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2010
  19. Jun 15, 2010 #18
    Re: Mind

    you're right, i'm as confused as ever :-)
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