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Higgs particle and electromagnetism

  1. Jul 23, 2004 #1
    The Higgs particle may never be found - Stephen Hawking doubts that it exists.
    If mass isn't due to the Higgs, could it be caused by electromagnetism?
    For example, if protons and electrons experience resistance to a change in their speeds from charged particles in the space around them,could a photon be massless because it has no net charge?
     
  2. jcsd
  3. Jul 23, 2004 #2
    I don't see how a change in velocity can be coupled to the generation of mass. Isn't it so that in QFT high-velocity-particles are always concidered to be massless because kinetic (relativistic) energy is not equivalent to mass, only total energy is. Fotons are always massless, just as any other elemantary particle when there has not been any spontanious symmetrybreaking. If this occurs, the Higgs-system delivers the mass. yes, the Higgs-field is a big mystery, but nevertheless what other suggestions are there for massgeneration???

    I don't think elektromagnetism can be accounted for that, just because of the reason that in this case the mass generation would be dependent of the way particles interact electromagnetically. What about the strongforce or the weak force. So what about the massive vector-bosons or the gluons ???

    greetz
    nikolaas vanderheyden
     
  4. Jul 23, 2004 #3
    Gluons are electrically neutral and would be massless.
     
  5. Jul 23, 2004 #4
    Higgs bosons are the mediator of a fifth fundamental force of nature. This force is a direct link between zero dimension and the 4th dimension.
     
  6. Jul 23, 2004 #5
    The force linking zero dimension and one dimension is gravity and the mediator is the graviton. The electromagnetic force links the 1D and 2D with mediator as the photon. The weak nuclear force links the 2D and 3D with four mediators: photon, W+, W-, Z0. The strong nuclear force links 3D and 4D with mediators as the eight gluons with its permutation from three color charges (red, green, blue).
     
  7. Jul 24, 2004 #6
    elektromagnetism generates mass ???

    yeah, gluons do not interact elektromagnetically. But you are forgetting the fact that they have self-energy which enables them to create virtual particles that can have an influence on elektromagnetic interactions going on, somewhat like polarzation-effects.

    Besides, the elektroweak force is not that strong. So, would it be able to generate the needed amount of energy that is equivalent to the mass of elementary particles???

    That is what I meant with what about the strong-force,...
    Gluons interact predominantly by the strong force, so elektroweak interactions are secundary compared to the energies invloved in strong-force interactions. If elektromagnetism generates gluonmass, you totally ignore the strong force. This is impossible
     
  8. Jul 24, 2004 #7
    Marlon:
    If elektromagnetism generates gluonmass, you totally ignore the strong force. This is impossible

    Kurious:

    I am talking about rest mass - gluons don't have rest mass.
     
  9. Jul 24, 2004 #8
    There is one thing we need to clarify about the Higgs field. The mediator of this field is the Higgs boson. The Higgs boson is a scalar particle with spin equals zero. It is a product of a broken symmetry. The other force mediators are all vector bosons. The photon, spin 1, for EM force. The photon, W+ W-, Z0 for electroweak force. The 8 gluons for the strong force. The graviton, spin 2, for gravity.
     
  10. Jul 24, 2004 #9
    Marlon:
    Besides, the elektroweak force is not that strong. So, would it be able to generate the needed amount of energy that is equivalent to the mass of elementary particles???

    Kurious:
    The electric force has a strength that depends on distance and magnitude of charge.If charged mass giving particles are close enough to the charges they are giving rest mass to and there are enough of them,then the answer is yes.
     
  11. Jul 24, 2004 #10


    True, but isn't that just the essence of the Higgs-mechanism?
    Gluons acquire mass through the Higgs. They do not interact elektromagnetically. So this can never generate mass because there is no energy from these interactions. Like the Goldstone-boson that is absorbed in order for carriers to become massive. What must a gluon absorb to get mass???
     
  12. Jul 24, 2004 #11

    But then we get into trouble... Suppose we have positive charged mass giving particles close to one negative charge that is getting the restmass. All these positive charges could not get very close, the would repel each other.

    And you should also take in consideration the polarization-effects that will occur. Positive charges further away from the negative "receiving" charge will be of much less influence to the negative charge, their effect will be screened i mean.
     
  13. Jul 24, 2004 #12
    As far as theory is concerned, this 'close enough' is zero for point-particles and require renormalization. So you must have a renormalizable principle hidding in your pocket for your theory to work.
     
  14. Jul 24, 2004 #13

    Problem is that this concept of point particles can be contested, there is the Heisenberg principle. We also need to think of the repulsions of the mass-giving-charges and the screening-effect !!!
     
  15. Jul 24, 2004 #14
    It is this problem that started the superstring revolution.
     
  16. Jul 24, 2004 #15
    This is the one that started the quantum revolution leading to probability wave functions.
     
  17. Jul 24, 2004 #16
    This is the start of the virtual particles revolution. Virtual bosons and virtual fermions and ways to break the balance of charge by screening through broken symmetries.

    But the problem remains: how to convert the virtual particles to real particles and permanently borrow energy from the vacuum.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2004
  18. Jul 25, 2004 #17
    Marlon:
    Gluons acquire mass through the Higgs

    Kurious:
    I think that gluons and photons and gravitons have positive and negative charges in them.When these charges are close together and cancel a particle appears massless.
    When these charges are separated a particle gains mass.So in my view the origin of mass is a process in which electric charges in a massless particle are redistributed and give polarity to the particle.Each of the charged poles can interact with the sea of positive charge in the vacuum.

    Marlon:
    But then we get into trouble... Suppose we have positive charged mass giving particles close to one negative charge that is getting the restmass. All these positive charges could not get very close, the would repel each other.

    Kurious:
    I'm not sure this is a problem.It would need an accurate calculation to show it was.And what if the charges have other force creating propeties such as colour or even a interact by a new force in nature.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2004
  19. Jul 25, 2004 #18
    A much better concept for electric charge is space charge. The groupings of space charges and accordings to the principle of directional invariance produce color charges for QCD and electric charges for QED.

    FYI: Space charges are quanta of spacetime.
     
  20. Jul 25, 2004 #19
    Injecting negative charges into the vacuum might be expected to make a particle with rest mass massless by cancelling the positive charge in the vacuum.This does not happen in practise.But then there is rather a lot of space and rather a lot of positive charges to cancel!
    As the universe expands,if more positive charges are not created along with dark energy,then the mass giving charges will become lower in density,and presumably the mass of protons and electrons will go down, unless they have a size and expand.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2004
  21. Jul 26, 2004 #20
    An idea based on spacetime quantization in making a particle massless is to equalize its inherent amount of potential mass and kinetic mass and the number of each mass is an even number.
     
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