# Hm, Value

1. Mar 27, 2004

### deda

Among all those magnitudes surrounding us value is the most variable one!

2. Mar 27, 2004

### verty

Value is subjective, by the way. An object's value is only defined in the context of a specific subject. You speak of value as though it's absolute.

3. May 23, 2004

### p-brane

True enough, however value is relative in the strictest sense of the word.

There is great value in oil to a car that runs on gasoline. However, a car that runs on electricity renders the value of the oil null and void in that relationship.

The value of gravity is widely accepted by those of us who want to remain on the planet, yet, gravity is a value to be negated for the engineers calculating the liftoff of the latest telecommunications satellite.

So, value is purely relative in relationships that exist within and beyond human concerns. And value is subjective when it is looked at solely from a human perspective.

Value could be defined as the measure of an element's efficiency in a relationship.
eg: If being polite at the grocery checkout stand gets you a smile and an extra discount every two weeks

then the value of being polite becomes a higher value in that it has proven to be useful to your well being (getting a smile) and your bank account (friendly 10% discount for polite customers)

The value of being polite with no expectation of reward, limitless.

4. May 25, 2004

### Dissident Dan

Experiences always have value. Period.

5. May 26, 2004

### p-brane

I think you're right, Dissident Dan.

What is value? If someone posts a dictionary definition of value it may help to guide a discussion that looks further into the "value" of value.

Here are some:

"a numerical quantity measured or assigned or computed; "the value assigned was 16 milliseconds"
www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn

the quality (positive or negative) that renders something desirable or valuable; "the Shakespearean Shylock is of dubious value in the modern world"
www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn

the amount (of money or goods or services) that is considered to be a fair equivalent for something else; "he tried to estimate the value of the produce at normal prices"
www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn

relative darkness or lightness of a color; "I establish the colors and principal values by organizing the painting into three values--dark, medium...and light"-Joe Hing Lowe
www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn

(music) the relative duration of a musical note
www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn

an ideal accepted by some individual or group; "he has old-fashioned values"
www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn

fix or determine the value of; assign a value to; "value the jewelry and art work in the estate"
www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn"

Last edited by a moderator: May 26, 2004
6. May 29, 2004

### p-brane

If one assigns value to the experience of value, it is valuable.

Ned Shandelerious

7. May 29, 2004

### Dissident Dan

What the hell?

8. May 30, 2004

### p-brane

Last edited by a moderator: May 30, 2004
9. May 30, 2004

### Dissident Dan

Haha. Actually, that's what I was looking for out of you. What is "the experience of value", as opposed to just experience? And if you are experiencing already of value, why would the experience require someone to assign value to it to be valuable, when there is already value there?

10. May 30, 2004

### p-brane

Ha ha. (Is the value "there" or in the individual's head?)

My original question is "what is the value of value".

What is the function of value?

11. May 30, 2004

### loseyourname

Staff Emeritus
Are you proposing an infinite regression of value?

12. May 31, 2004

### Dissident Dan

My proposition is that experience is itself valuable. This is not something that can be proven through sentences. A computer will never know the value of experience. One must have an experience to know the qualities of it. There is intrinsic goodness and/or badness in experiences that we can know by having experiences.

13. May 31, 2004

### loseyourname

Staff Emeritus
I was asking p-brane. It's hard to see any validity in asking what the value of value is, because you can then simply ask what the value is of each new level of value, ad infinitum.

I agree with you, by the way.

14. May 31, 2004

Which computers can experience

You are not a computer?

15. May 31, 2004

### p-brane

Although I am not proposing anything when I ask a question... I do have an answer in mind. I'm hoping someone else's answer can verify, nulify or otherwise clarify my understanding of the answer I have to "what is the value of value?".

In short I'd say that value is another anthropomorphic measurement of a benefit or a detriment that an element has on an individual or group of individuals. In shorter terms it is the measurment of the effect that a condition or action has on humans, be it an effect created by humans or by their environment.

Value is the result of an observation that observes the benefits and/or other effects of certain conditions on humans.

The value of value is akin to the value of time in that the values of both are entirely relative to one's position in relation to the changes that comprise existence.

Last edited by a moderator: May 31, 2004
16. May 31, 2004

### Dissident Dan

By computer, I meant a silicon-based calculator.

In some senses, I am a computer, although not a very good one. There is something more to animal existence--sentience. I don't think that sentience could ever be explained to a nonsentient object. In fact, the whole idea of "understanding" doesn't have any meaning to me except in the context of sentient beings. Even without worrying about what constitutes understanding, a nonsentient object, such as a Terminator, could only operate with the data that emotions are some biological states that result in behavior--it could not have the data of what the emotion really is.

17. Jun 4, 2004

### p-brane

What "really is" emotion other than "some biological states" Dan?

18. Jun 5, 2004

### Dissident Dan

Subjective states. I cannot explain it in words, which is related to the fact that the Terminator cannot understand it. You can only know of experience by experiencing.

19. Jun 6, 2004

### p-brane

Really?

What the f is a termitator? Is it a potato that terminates after one season?

Knowing is an experience too. Therefore one must be able to experience knowing to experience experience, is that what you're saying?

Do you have to know you're experiencing knowing to know you're experiencing?

20. Jun 7, 2004

### Dissident Dan

There is a series of Terminator movies starring Arnold Schwarzenegger. He plays robot that mimics the appearance of a human (among doing other things, such as being an assassin).

Well, a current state of one's consciousness is necessary for experience. That data of that state can be considered in one's realm of knowledge, at least for the current moment, even if the entity in question has no memory.

Anyway, by using the word "knowing", I merely meant possessing data, which is not necessarily an experience. The phrase "experience experience" seems nonsensical to me.