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Homosexuals to be hired in civil service jobs

  1. Jul 15, 2003 #1
    Recently, the Singapore government has started relaxing rules, one of which is the allowance of homosexuals to be hired in civil service jobs.

    And just today, i read in the Straits Times forum that some people disagree with this move.

    The article can be found here:Govt should rethink hiring of gays

    One of this person's reason is that "Gays are never born that way".

    This brings up a few questions. Are gays really never born that way? Are there any scientific studies and related matter on this subject?

    I'm interested in hearing some of your inputs.
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 5, 2013
  2. jcsd
  3. Jul 15, 2003 #2
    I think it's possible to have a genetic predispostion towards it (hormonal imbalance), but I think in a good majority of cases it's a psychological issue, for example of a young man being brought up by a domineering mother. Or, perhaps in young people who lack in self-esteem, or aren't particularly attractive, who seek out companionship of the same sex.

    Then there's always the possibility of young children being molested as well, who get coerced into doing these things by means of a parent, a close member of the family, a teacher, a priest, etc. Or, if a child runs away from a broken home, and has to find a means by which to survive ... i.e., through child prostitution.
  4. Jul 15, 2003 #3
    I think alot of people confuse homosexuality with gender issues. Like, if a man is gay, he wants to be a woman.
  5. Jul 15, 2003 #4
    Iacchus is right that it is usually a psychological issue. However, there is also the fact that, when a mother's hypothalamus doesn't produce enough testosterone, while pregnant of a boy, the boy will have a tendency for homosexuality.

    BTW, there was a recent study that I heard of, which said that boys with older brothers are more likely to be born gay, because the mother's immune system could have built up antibodies to male hormones. I don't know how credible this is, but it seemed reasonable.
  6. Jul 15, 2003 #5
    Whatever happened to the gay gene theory?
    Why isn't this thread listed under other sciences where it belongs?

  7. Jul 15, 2003 #6
    "Gay gene theory"? If there's already a theory, then yes, this should be in the Other Sciences Forum. In fact, it might be a little more comfortable there anyway. Maybe Kerrie will move it.
  8. Jul 15, 2003 #7


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    i firmly believe that homosexuality is something a person is born with...i have known several people from the time they were children into adulthood that displayed behaviors as children that tend to make one think they might one day display homosexual behaviors as adults...if only those who are biased against them could see it...
  9. Jul 15, 2003 #8
    I would like to clearify on this post, perhaps not to Kerrie's original intent.

    Children that are born with, what Iacchus32 has said, homosexual imbalances would be able to be 'cured' (crude, I know and for a literal meaning, perhaps, incorrect, as homosexuality may or may not be 'bad'; let's say veered from the homosexual path?) of homosexuality through psychological means, such as counceling.

    If the child was born with the disposition to be homosexual, one would think that the wiring of the brain would be inherently different from that of a heterosexual mind. This, in turn, would lead, me -among others I hope-, to believe that this 'homosexual trait' would not be 'curable' through counceling.

    Now, as stated in another thread, studies (recent) have shown that there has been much success in 'treating' homosexuals and assimilating them into heterosexual attraction.
  10. Jul 16, 2003 #9
    I do not believe that people are born gay. Then again, I do not believe that people are born straight, and I am certain that being gay, bisexual, straight, or transgendered is not a choice. Why would someone want to be hated, ridiculed, fired from their job because of their sexuality, or denied the right marry who they wished?

    What thread? And especially what studies? And who did these studies?
  11. Jul 16, 2003 #10
    Hm....looks like i made a bad call. I created the topic here because i was anticipating people like George Lim Heng Chye, who wrote the article, to start using religion to back up their stand.

    So far, i've heard mostly beliefs. But are there more hard facts? Mind sharing 'em?
  12. Jul 16, 2003 #11


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    if it is not a chemical imbalance or choice, then what is it? my reasoning of why i believe people are born with it is because of my own experience of knowing 2 different people from the time they were children into adulthood as i explained in my above post...not to drag this off topic too much, but do animals display homosexual behaviors as well?
  13. Jul 16, 2003 #12
    Fact: I'm a male lesbian.
  14. Jul 16, 2003 #13
    You don't think that children are born with any sexual orientation at all? This is a highly "Nurture"-istic viewpoint, isn't it?
  15. Jul 16, 2003 #14
    That's impossible (it's an oxymoron, or self-contradiction).
  16. Jul 16, 2003 #15
    Sure, children may be born with biological traits sympathetic to the creation of a sexual orientation, but I feel this says very little. The only way to make sense of "being biologically sympathetic or prone" is to have a full understanding of the cultural context of the individual with said biological traits. This is why I feel the whole nature/nurture distinction is useless.
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2003
  17. Jul 16, 2003 #16
    Some animals do show "homosexual behavior" but I don't like that term. To paraphrase Foucault, the homosexual was once a sodomist but now he is a species. Sexuality is a construct. I personally know two identical twin brothers, they act exactly alike, they dress alike, they have the same humor, but one is completely gay and the other completely straight. The truth is we don't know how enculturation works.
  18. Jul 16, 2003 #17
    Research I've run across, concerned at statistical larger number of homosexual males that were born, in England, during or shortly after the blitz. A more recent study, queried a number of mothers, of gay and straight males, about the emotional times during the late first trimester and early to mid second trimester of gestation. The initial results seemed to indicate that stress hormones were likely to be part of a cause in later male homosexuality. There was some specuation as to this trigger in combination with a homozygous recessive gene, was the cause.

    While the correlations between prenatal stress and homosexuality of offspring were not high, the correlation between mothers of homosexual males having had stress during said pregnacy was high. This data does support the speculation, as to cause.

    Similar to Mentat, I'm a lesbian trapped in a man's body. :smile:
  19. Jul 16, 2003 #18
    "Not even nothing is impossible." Carl :wink:
  20. Jul 16, 2003 #19
    If you believe they are a species then you would also believe fully that they have inherent chemical and biological homosexual traits, which you say you don't believe.

    Do a search of PF and find the thread yourself.

    You have also contradicted yourself by first saying you don't believe people are born homosexual and then agreeing they can be born with homosexual traits, but writing this off by saying these traits have no bearing on homosexual adults. It's like being born with a social disorder and saying that the chemical imbalance has no bearing on your bashfulness as an adult.

    At least this is what your stance, as of this post, would appear to be.

    What animals show homosexual behavior?, long term, not just the occasional female dog humping another female dog; this is odd but hardly qualifies the female dogs to be considered homosexuals.

    This is partly true, there are cases when we can identify the homosexual outcome due to childhood experiences, but not in all cases can we recognise the entire outcome of society on sexuality. Your choice of words [enculturation] makes me think the homosexual child (now adult) was raised in a gay bar or something:smile: Homosexuality isn't the majority, to my knowledge, in any society, so there is no possible way a child could pick up homosexual behavior through the assimilation of a society's culture; I will protect myself by narrowing the scope of society to the parties involved, I trust the children were not raised in a predominantly homosexual society.
  21. Jul 17, 2003 #20
    I don't believe they are a species and either did Foucault. Foucault's volumes on the History of Sexuality detail the social creation of sexual categories, the implicit discourses that led to modern conceptions of sexuality. Before for Foucault the popular intelectual theory of sexuality was a "repressive hypothesis", that the gay movement and sexual promescuity were signs of peoples true sexual nature coming out finally after hundreds of years of repression. Foucault, to many, showed how these movements were nothing but continued discourses of old, socially created. Foucault, and other "good" social constructivists, do away with the idea of a human nature (a very good thing). This however does not mean they promote a purely "nurture" stance, our behavior always deals with biology. The difference is that the individuals behavior is always put in terms of both biology and society - biology is never given the role of a blueprint. The way I read Foucault (and many others) leads to the rejection of the nature/nurture distinction because no line can ever be drawn (biology doesn't do one thing and society another, they are completely intertwined and dependent on each other).

    Read above and and my reply to Mentat.
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