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News Honduran President, a Chavez ally, deposed in coup after trying to alter constitution

  1. Jun 29, 2009 #1
    The gist of it:
    [Reuters] Leftist leaders rally around Honduran president

    Honduran military in the Presidential palace:

    2wlv95l.jpg

    .
    Zelaya in Costa Rica holding a press conference, still in his pajamas:

    29honduras.inlineB.650.jpg

    .
    The Supreme Court says the removal was lawful, and that they had in fact ordered it:
    [BBC] Honduran leader forced into exile
    [New York Times] Honduran President Is Ousted in Coup

    Zelaya defends himself, alleging his ouster is a plot to oppress poor people:
    (ibid) [BBC] Honduran leader forced into exile

    Communist dictators rallied in support of the pajama man:
    [Reuters] Cuba condemns Honduras coup as 'criminal, brutal'

    Yup, that Fidel Castro claiming constitutional term limits aren't important.
    [Reuters] Chavez threatens military action over Honduras coup

    I doubt Chavez has problems with indefinite term limits either.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2009
  2. jcsd
  3. Jun 29, 2009 #2
    Re: Honduran President, a Chavez ally, deposed in coup after trying to alter constitu

    I knew the guy is in trouble when he decided to kick out the military officer who refused to help him in referendum :biggrin:.
     
  4. Jun 29, 2009 #3

    Hans de Vries

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    Re: Honduran President, a Chavez ally, deposed in coup after trying to alter constitu

    The second coup in a month time, first Iran now Honduras.

    The Supreme Court declares a democratic poll "unconstitutional" and the military
    big shot throws a democratically chosen president out of the Country.

    I'm not in favor of multiple presidencies over extended periods like 10 years.
    Power consolidation tends to undermine democracy. But a presidency for more
    than a single 4 year period is quite common in some parts of the world....


    Regards, Hans
     
  5. Jun 29, 2009 #4

    chemisttree

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    Re: Honduran President, a Chavez ally, deposed in coup after trying to alter constitu

    I believe the Supreme Court ruled the referendum itself unconstitutional because it called for changing some clauses in their Constitution that cannot be changed. That is an unusual Constitution to be sure but its the one they have to deal with.
     
  6. Jun 29, 2009 #5

    Hans de Vries

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    Re: Honduran President, a Chavez ally, deposed in coup after trying to alter constitu

    The OP brings back memories of the cold war era. A period which left traumatic
    memories in the South American countries ruled by brutal military dictatorships.

    It's these memories which bring people like Chavez to power in the first place.
    Chavez would been nowhere without Bush reviving bad memories of the past.

    Good to see Clinton speaking out firmly in favor of democracy:

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/31614522#31614522
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2009
  7. Jun 29, 2009 #6
    Re: Honduran President, a Chavez ally, deposed in coup after trying to alter constitu

    I assume by your sarcasm, that you assert it is not constitutional? I'm not an expert (although I'd say the Honduran Supreme Court qualifies); but here's the text of it, which as I read says that "inciting" an unconstitutional re-election is itself a crime:
    [Google Translation] of [Document hosted on Georgetown]
    This is false. As I already pointed out in the OP - the ouster was ordered by the Supreme Court of Honduras, which presumably is their legitimate function. Unless you dispute the accuracy of the BBC article I linked to, the Honduran military did NOT initiate Zelaya's removal - they carried out what is apparently a lawful order.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8123126.stm
     
  8. Jun 29, 2009 #7

    Hans de Vries

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    Re: Honduran President, a Chavez ally, deposed in coup after trying to alter constitu

    Obama called the military coup illegal. Apparently understanding the
    importance of the symbolism in the relationship between the US and
    Latin America which goes far beyond the local power struggle around
    Zelaya:

    250+ edits in the last few days: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manuel_Zelaya
     
  9. Jun 29, 2009 #8
    Re: Honduran President, a Chavez ally, deposed in coup after trying to alter constitu

    How is this is a military coup? He was impeached from office by the Supreme Court, in response to a highly unconstitutional attempt to hold on to power. The military did not initiate it, NOR did they take power: an acting President was elected by Congress and instated the same day:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8123126.stm

    As far as I've seen, the military did NOTHING except carry out the legal order to arrest and deport Zelaya.
    So what? Do you trust his professor-of-constitutional-law judgment when he calls http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/01/obama-administr/#previouspost [Broken], contradicting two federal court rulings and invoking the same arguments as Dick Cheney? When did Obama's legal opinions start mattering?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 4, 2017
  10. Jun 29, 2009 #9

    Hans de Vries

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    Re: Honduran President, a Chavez ally, deposed in coup after trying to alter constitu

    The fact that the congress voted to approve a fake resignation letter by Zelaya
    shows how "serious" we should take this whole military undertaking in terms of
    legitimacy, that is, not.

    It's up to the people of Honduras to ultimately determine the course of their future.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2009
  11. Jun 29, 2009 #10
    Re: Honduran President, a Chavez ally, deposed in coup after trying to alter constitu

    http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hpv-J_KpSJAuxrlekfq8-oR00eUwD994IEEG2 [Broken]

    Rising dictator. Lucky the constitutional system worked this time.

    Note his utter disregard for the free press. Just like Chavez and Castro, the little tyrants hold power by controlling and manipulating the press for their own propaganda.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 4, 2017
  12. Jun 29, 2009 #11
    Re: Honduran President, a Chavez ally, deposed in coup after trying to alter constitu

    It seems they have.
    http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hpv-J_KpSJAuxrlekfq8-oR00eUwD994IEEG2 [Broken]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 4, 2017
  13. Jun 29, 2009 #12
    Re: Honduran President, a Chavez ally, deposed in coup after trying to alter constitu

    What happened in Iran was not similar to Honduras, Iran is a clerical regime controlled by Ayatollah Khamenei. The security apparatus, military, Revolutionary Guard and the local militia are all controlled by him and rely heavily on him as well. The president of Honduras was overthrown in a military coup.
     
  14. Jun 29, 2009 #13

    Hans de Vries

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    Re: Honduran President, a Chavez ally, deposed in coup after trying to alter constitu


    "Honduran army smothers media after coup"
    "cut off local broadcasts of international television networks CNN en Espanol"

    http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSN29399379
    Oh, yes. CNN cut off and democracy restored ??! :uhh:
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 4, 2017
  15. Jun 29, 2009 #14

    Hans de Vries

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    Re: Honduran President, a Chavez ally, deposed in coup after trying to alter constitu

    In both cases there is a power struggle inside the ruling party itself
    which gets nasty and which is fought out in public for the popular
    vote because there is some form of democracy.

    In both cases it's not the popular vote which determines the outcome
    but the military\revolutionary guard taking over power on behalf of
    those who control it.
     
  16. Jun 30, 2009 #15
    Re: Honduran President, a Chavez ally, deposed in coup after trying to alter constitu

    Well, there was a power struggle but that would oversimplify what is happening in Iran.



    The Revolutionary Guard never took over power over anything, they were just an instrument of control.
    There is a slight but important difference between taking over power and doing someone's bidding. I agree that both forces are following orders but the Honduras military did launch a coup and depose a president while nothing of the sort happened in Iran. No coup was launched, no president was deposed, they never took over anything. What they did do is crack down on dissent on the streets. The clerics were still in firm control over all the major departments in the country.
     
  17. Jul 1, 2009 #16
    Re: Honduran President, a Chavez ally, deposed in coup after trying to alter constitu

    A difference between Iran and Honduras seems to be that while in Iran the poor rural people support Ahmadinejad and the richer people in urban areas are against him, in Honduras it is the other way around. In case of Hunduras that creates a false impression that the majority supports the coup.

    Both cases are similar in the sense that you have a constituton that is problematic and you had someone who wanted to reform the system to make it more democratic, to reign in the power of people who could game the system.


    The problem in Venezuela and many other latin American countries is the huge polarization in society. What you need to have are reliable unbiased news sources, which we in the West get by means of a "free press". However, what happens if you have a polarized society is that the "free press" doesn't give rise to unbiased news sources. The media are then typically controlled by people who represent big business.


    There is no easy solution to this problem. The government taking control of news media is not a ideal solution. In case of Venezuela the situaton was more complicated because there the news media were directly involved in the coup against Chavez.


    It is easy for us here in the West to sit back and criticize the actions against the free press. I suspect that the moment we have to deal with similar problems we won't do much better. I think in Spain they have some restrictions on free press because of problems with ETA. They have even banned political parties for that reason.

    Another example: Britain refused to let Dutch member of parliament Geert Wilders in the country. We all understand the reasons why that decisions was made, altough many people are against that decision. But this was unthinkable ten years ago.


    So, we have a double standard according to which Chavez becomes a dictator if he shuts down a T.V. station that was guilty of inciting violence and was against behind the coup againt him, but if we do not allow Geert Wilders into Britain because that would somehow cause tensions in British society, it is no big deal. Controversial move? Yes, but nothing more than that.
     
  18. Jul 19, 2009 #17
    Re: Honduran President, a Chavez ally, deposed in coup after trying to alter constitu

    http://news.slashdot.org/story/09/07/19/1646201/Computerized-Election-Results-With-No-Election
     
  19. Jul 19, 2009 #18
  20. Jul 20, 2009 #19
    Re: Honduran President, a Chavez ally, deposed in coup after trying to alter constitu

    http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jAkMGKIUDg_ngUiZboxQbYj5_DPwD99IE2180" [Broken]:approve:
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 4, 2017
  21. Jul 29, 2009 #20
    Honduran President a Chavez ally deposed in coup after trying to alter constitution

    The newly installed Honduran President claims the military coup that brought him to power saved the country from the shackles of a Chavez-sponsored socialism.

    Whats he supposed to say? I always wanted to be President and saw this as my best opportunity?
     
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