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How are ancestors classified in a cladistic system?
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[QUOTE="Amaterasu21, post: 6359200, member: 537116"] [B]TL;DR Summary:[/B] If all taxa have to be monophyletic, how can we classify ancestral species without all descendant species "telescoping down" into them? Hi all, When I first learned about cladistics, it seemed like an elegant and objective way of classifying life - forget about subjective physical similarities, classify purely based on scientifically testable ancestry, and have all taxa be monophyletic clades, so everything in one taxon is more closely related to other members of its taxon than anything outside. As far as I understand it, this means phrases like "taxon X evolved into taxon Y" are not acceptable since that would make taxon X paraphyletic, and some members of taxon X would be more closely related to taxon Y than to other members of taxon X (e.g. if taxon X is "fish" and taxon Y is "tetrapods," that means "fish" are paraphyletic and bony fish are closer to tetrapods like humans than they are to sharks.) Instead we should say "taxon Y is included within taxon X." (So tetrapods are included within the fish clade, or if you're uncomfortable with calling humans fish, the vertebrate clade.) But after looking at a few cladograms, a thought occurred - all named species were on the tips of branches, and the nodes were always named with the name of the whole clade and not its common ancestor. And... hang on, how could ancestral species even fit into a monophyletic classification? Say [I]Homo sapiens[/I] speciates into two new species, which speciate into more species, which speciate into more species. Come back in 200 million years, and each of those species may be as different from each other as mammals are from each other today. Yet wouldn't a cladist insist they were all part of the taxon [I]Homo sapiens?[/I] If so, then [I]H. sapiens[/I] would become an enormously diverse "species" made up of thousands of sub-sub-sub-subspecies that all can't interbreed. And if they aren't part of [I]H. sapiens,[/I] doesn't that make [I]H. sapiens[/I] a paraphyletic taxon whose descendants aren't all included, and therefore unacceptable according to cladistic rules? Suppose we find a fossil of a dinosaur from the early Triassic, which turns out to be the common ancestor of all dinosaurs. Call it [I]Ancestrosaurus.[/I] How would we place that on a cladogram? The node there would be labelled "DINOSAURIA" for the entire clade, not "[I]Ancestrosaurus[/I]" for the ancestral species the clade evolved from. Perhaps we could place [I]Ancestrosaurus[/I] as the earliest branch to split off from that node, but that would incorrectly imply this species died out without leaving any descendants and its unnamed sister species branched off to give rise to the rest of the dinosaurs. You could say that any fossil dinosaur we find is unlikely to be the actual ancestor of all the rest and we can safely assume that all actual dinosaur fossils we find are related to each other but not ancestors or descendants of each other. But even if we never find the common ancestor of all dinosaurs in the fossil record, evolutionary theory says such a species must have existed. How would we classify it? If we can't, then how is cladistics a viable classification system if it leaves some organisms impossible to classify? And these hypothetical questions become less hypothetical with more recent species or genera, like human ancestors. Most palaeoanthropologists agree that [I]Australopithecus[/I] gave rise to [I]Homo.[/I] Does that make [I]Australopithecus[/I] an invalid taxon because it excludes some of its descendants? Where does the rule of monophyly leave the evolutionary trees shown in palaeoanthropology books? Those are never cladograms but always look something like this: [URL]https://cdn.zmescience.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/palmer-and-ash.jpg[/URL] Here we see [I]H. sapiens[/I] evolve from [I]H. heidelbergensis[/I] which evolves from another species, and so on back through the australopithecines to [I]Orrorin tugenensis,[/I] on this hypothesis at least. If this hypothesis is correct, then if we make all taxa monophyletic all hominin species should be included within [I]Ororrin tugenensis.[/I] (Sure, you can say that the hypothesis may be wrong and all the species listed here may be sister taxa rather than actual ancestors of each other - but there must [I]be[/I] ancestors, and if we dug up their fossils, we'd surely assign them a species name and try to put them somewhere on the tree. How would we fit them into a cladogram?) Taking this logic to extremes, if we assign a species name to LUCA, the Last Universal Common Ancestor of all life around today - let's call it [I]Luca primogenita[/I] for the sake of argument - then wouldn't all existing taxa - all archaea, bacteria and eukaryotic species alive today - end up telescoping back into sub-sub-sub-sub-sub-sub-sub...-sub species of [I]L. primogenita[/I] ? Perhaps a little paraphyly is admitted with species - we can let one species evolve into another, different species. And maybe genera - we can allow [I]Australopithecus[/I] to give rise to [I]Homo,[/I] a non-australopithecine genus. But how far do we allow that before we're back to traditional Linnean taxonomy? A cladist would bristle at terms like "birds evolved from reptiles, which evolved from amphibians, which evolved from fish" - it'd be more accurate to say "birds are included within the diapsid clade, which is part of the tetrapod clade, which is part of the vertebrate clade, and the traditional meanings of "reptiles," "amphibians" and "fish" are informal paraphyletic groups and not true taxa" in a cladistic system. So if it's acceptable to say "[I]Australopithecus[/I] evolved into [I]Homo,[/I]" why is it unacceptable to say "reptiles evolved from amphibians, which evolved from fish," and where do you draw the line? And if it's unacceptable to say "[I]Australopithecus[/I] evolved into [I]Homo,"[/I] then how do you classify ancestor-descendant relationships? [/QUOTE]
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