Welding Machine Increases Power: Physically Impossible?

[nmatiiq]

How is it possible for a welding machine to end up creating more power than what it started with if that is physically impossible? For ex; 200 amp @ 28vdc welding machine. starts out with main voltage being 120v @ 20amps = 2400 watts then converts it to 200 amps at 28vdc which = 5,600 watts of power.

 

[zoki85]

200 amp @ 28vdc welding machine. starts out with main voltage being 120v @ 20amps = 2400 watts then converts it to 200 amps at 28vdc which = 5,600 watts of power.

It doesn't

 

[davenn]

For ex; 200 amp @ 28vdc welding machine. starts out with main voltage being 120v @ 20amps

For any high power device, it will use 240V and not 120V
Some one answered a similar Q in the last few days

@anorlunda @berkeman

please refresh my memory

 

[zoki85]

200 A is the highest output current setting. Doesn't mean it occurs at 28 VDC

 

[berkeman]

How is it possible for a welding machine to end up creating more power than what it started with if that is physically impossible? For ex; 200 amp @ 28vdc welding machine. starts out with main voltage being 120v @ 20amps = 2400 watts then converts it to 200 amps at 28vdc which = 5,600 watts of power.

Welcome to the PF.

Please provide a link to the datasheet and user manual for this welder, or attach a picture of the nameplate. Something like this:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/Wd_6YwLq3FoweHGgT8CmvMnuissrB_yX5N99dgdeflp1SoSB9rANJmNppsIT9Kjk8seUcIRSW3qci7jznt1-d1zNS0E1rk0boMuDe-b8wHw2xfwP9KxDjA-_4hAjXDOZ22I680JE

 

[nmatiiq]

It doesn't

Welcome to the PF.

Please provide a link to the datasheet and user manual for this welder, or attach a picture of the nameplate. Something like this:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/Wd_6YwLq3FoweHGgT8CmvMnuissrB_yX5N99dgdeflp1SoSB9rANJmNppsIT9Kjk8seUcIRSW3qci7jznt1-d1zNS0E1rk0boMuDe-b8wHw2xfwP9KxDjA-_4hAjXDOZ22I680JE

View attachment 258411

 

[nmatiiq]

200 A is the highest output current setting. Doesn't mean it occurs at 28 VDC

 

[nmatiiq]

It doesn't

That's odd because the back of my welding machine says it does.

 

[nmatiiq]

It doesn't

If it doesn't then that means every welding machine ever created is lying about how much amperage and voltage is being created, they would have to be lying by a huge margin to such a degree that it would warrant a massive lawsuit. If power in watts is volts X amps or Amps X volts then. Even if I start out with 220v @ 20amps = 4,400 watts of power, and I'm told I'm getting 200amps at 28v of output then I must be getting 5,600 watts. Or the welding machine along with every other machine is waay overated, or my math is wrong.

 

[hutchphd]

I believe there is a number that implies a 60% duty cycle (this must be PWM DC somehow?) So 3,360W out ? (did it in my head...always risky). Whew. Both the integrity of the welding folks and physics is preserved!

 

[nmatiiq]

I believe there is a number that implies a 60% duty cycle (this must be PWM DC somehow?) So 3,360W out ? (did it in my head...always risky). Whew. Both the integrity of the welding folks and physics is preserved!

Duty cycle is in reference to the total amount of time you can weld continuously in a ten minute period before the machine has to cool down. It has nothing to do the amount of power it can produce just the total time peak power can be used before heat loss occurs thus loss of power.

 

[hutchphd]

I am unaware of the 10 minute stipulation in duty cycle definition. I'll bet the manufacturer also similarly uninformed. Where made?

 

[Baluncore]

I see the manufacturer's label includes 'Gooling: air cool'.
So I know it is “Chinese Junk Brand”, and that the numbers cannot be trusted.

 

[hutchphd]

I am a very novice welder. Is there any possible utility to pulsating DC that would give higher instantaneous current at same average power?

 

[nmatiiq]

I see the manufacturer's label includes 'Gooling: air cool'.
So I know it is “Chinese Junk Brand”, and that the numbers cannot be trusted.

The brand is irrelevant because all the American manufactures do the same. I'll post a link

 

[nmatiiq]

I am unaware of the 10 minute stipulation in duty cycle definition. I'll bet the manufacturer also similarly uninformed. Where made?

http://weldinganswers.com/understanding-duty-cycle/

 

[nmatiiq]

I am unaware of the 10 minute stipulation in duty cycle definition. I'll bet the manufacturer also similarly uninformed. Where made?

China

 

[Guineafowl]

28V is the open circuit voltage. 200A is the maximum (near short circuit) current. Once the arc is struck, the voltage drops.

To put it another way, 200A and 28V don’t occur together, so you can’t just multiply them.

 

[Baluncore]

The single phase, 50 Hz input sinewave will be rectified to high voltage DC in a capacitor.
The input is rated in kVA not kW because the rectifier input is not resistive.
220 V * 39 A = 8.580 kVA.
220 V * 30 A = 6.600 kW effective.

The continuous DC output is 155 A * 26.2 V = 4.061 kW.
The 60% duty output is 200 A * 28 V = 5.600 kW.

The output power is less than the input, so conservation of energy is OK. No problem.
I think it needs a higher current outlet. The OP assumed it to be standard.

 

[russ_watters]

How is it possible for a welding machine to end up creating more power than what it started with if that is physically impossible? For ex; 200 amp @ 28vdc welding machine. starts out with main voltage being 120v @ 20amps = 2400 watts then converts it to 200 amps at 28vdc which = 5,600 watts of power.

Where do you see 20A? Isn't that the input parameters at the bottom of the nameplate photo? 78A at 110V?

 

[nmatiiq]

I am a very novice welder. Is there any possible utility to pulsating DC that would give higher instantaneous current at same average power?

Nothing will occur in a welding machine that is not pre determined PWM or not. Inverter welding machines use pulse width modulation in order to provide a consistent arc but it won't cause the welding machine to exceed its max amperage or voltage rating.

I believe what your alluding to is voltage spiking and unnecessary chatter in the square or sign wave that is un accounted for. This is mitigated with the capacitor bank that comes with all inverter welding machines along with software programming. The capacitor bank in the circuit does two primary things, 1) provide consistent output and 2) removes unwanted noise, chatter or voltage spiking in the circuit.

 

[hutchphd]

The nameplate photo says 78A at 110V.

Duh...I didn't read that far...

 

[nmatiiq]

The single phase, 50 Hz input sinewave will be rectified to high voltage DC in a capacitor.
The input is rated in kVA not kW because the rectifier input is not resistive.
220 V * 39 A = 8.580 kVA.
220 V * 30 A = 6.600 kW effective.

The continuous DC output is 155 A * 26.2 V = 4.061 kW.
The 60% duty output is 200 A * 28 V = 5.600 kW.

The output power is less than the input, so conservation of energy is OK. No problem.
I think it needs a higher current outlet. The OP assumed it to be standard.

I got what your saying my next question would be:
Inverter welders use n channel mosfets in parallel attached to the same heatsink to increase total output of current and voltage then positive terminal is attached to the heatsink thus drawing out all the newly created power to weld with. Unless I’m wrong then to calculate total current of mosfets in parallel and voltage as well is as simple as adding them together, which means Theoretically I should be able to add an infinite amount of mosfets from the same power source to the same heatsink and keep increasing the power?
Reply

 

[Guineafowl]

I got what your saying my next question would be:
Inverter welders use n channel mosfets in parallel attached to the same heatsink to increase total output of current and voltage then positive terminal is attached to the heatsink thus drawing out all the newly created power to weld with. Unless I’m wrong then to calculate total current of mosfets in parallel and voltage as well is as simple as adding them together, which means Theoretically I should be able to add an infinite amount of mosfets from the same power source to the same heatsink and keep increasing the power?
Reply

MOSFETs don’t generate power.

The single phase, 50 Hz input sinewave will be rectified to high voltage DC in a capacitor.
The input is rated in kVA not kW because the rectifier input is not resistive.
220 V * 39 A = 8.580 kVA.
220 V * 30 A = 6.600 kW effective.

The continuous DC output is 155 A * 26.2 V = 4.061 kW.
The 60% duty output is 200 A * 28 V = 5.600 kW.

The output power is less than the input, so conservation of energy is OK. No problem.
I think it needs a higher current outlet. The OP assumed it to be standard.

This got me ferreting around a bit.
As it happens, I have a reasonably good quality 200A inverter stick welder. It came factory fitted with a standard UK 16A plug. At normal 240V, this will supply around 4kW (strictly kVA, I suppose). It welds perfectly happily at the 200A setting.

I can’t see the manufacturer supplying the machine with an under-rated plug. So those 30-39A figures might refer to brief surges, such as switch-on when the cap bank charges. The continuous current consumption at full power must be at or below 16A or the breaker would trip, and the plug would be overloaded, even taking into account some leeway from the breaker.

 

[Baluncore]

... , which means Theoretically I should be able to add an infinite amount of mosfets from the same power source to the same heatsink and keep increasing the power?

Energy can be audited. The account must always balance.
Power is the rate of energy flow or energy conversion.

A MOSFET is a fast switch that has a limited switching current capability. That limits the power one MOSFET can convert. If you need more output current you will need more MOSFETs to do the switching, but the extra energy being converted must come from a sufficiently greater source of energy somewhere. And it will need proportionally more heatsink.

 

[zoki85]

If it doesn't then that means every welding machine ever created is lying about how much amperage and voltage is being created, they would have to be lying by a huge margin to such a degree that it would warrant a massive lawsuit. If power in watts is volts X amps or Amps X volts then. Even if I start out with 220v @ 20amps = 4,400 watts of power, and I'm told I'm getting 200amps at 28v of output then I must be getting 5,600 watts. Or the welding machine along with every other machine is waay overated, or my math is wrong.

It doesn't. Read better nameplates, write better messages.

 

[essenmein]

I think OP might have bad/misleading labels on the machine. My welder for reference (only a small 90A mig by comparison):

Rated amps*rated volts 88A*18V = 1600W, it pulls 20A from 115V = 2300W, unfortunately no free energy here.

Note that the duty cycle in welder terms is a thermal limit. Due to the size of the transformer this has fairly slow time constant, and it usually is telling you how much you can weld in 10min:

 

[davenn]

. Unless I’m wrong then to calculate total current of mosfets in parallel and voltage as well is as simple as adding them together, which means Theoretically I should be able to add an infinite amount of mosfets from the same power source to the same heatsink and keep increasing the power?

Yes, you are wrong
You cannot produce more power out than power in, therefore you cannot just keep adding
mosfet's to create more power out of thin air

 

[sophiecentaur]

That's odd because the back of my welding machine says it does.

Yes, you are wrong
You cannot produce more power out than power in, therefore you cannot just keep adding
mosfet's to create more power out of thin air

The point of having several MOSFETS is to protect the MOSFETS and not to produce more power. This Conservation of Energy thing really confuses people and that suits the manufacturers fine.

My cheap and cheerful MIG welder just has Hi/Low and 1/2 settings on it. It just about works but I'd love the chance to play on a proper set. ) Then I'd show 'em.

 

[Guineafowl]

I think OP might have bad/misleading labels on the machine. My welder for reference (only a small 90A mig by comparison):
View attachment 258495

Rated amps*rated volts 88A*18V = 1600W, it pulls 20A from 115V = 2300W, unfortunately no free energy here.

Note that the duty cycle in welder terms is a thermal limit. Due to the size of the transformer this has fairly slow time constant, and it usually is telling you how much you can weld in 10min:

View attachment 258496

Wow. Forgive me, but your welder must be very irritating to use. Most give the duty at full output, and also the output at 60% duty, which I assume is considered reasonably usable. In a typical project, the time taken between welds to set up, clamp, mark etc means a 60% DC won’t cramp your style.

Given that a 20% DC means 12s on, 48s off, over the whole project it would take the machine a full minute to do each 2” or so of weld bead.

When buying a welder, the advice is to get one that has at least 60% DC at the output you will tend to use, rather than to look at the maximum output. The quality can be estimated by how the DC falls off as output rises.

 

[essenmein]

Wow. Forgive me, but your welder must be very irritating to use. Most give the duty at full output, and also the output at 60% duty, which I assume is considered reasonably usable. In a typical project, the time taken between welds to set up, clamp, mark etc means a 60% DC won’t cramp your style.

Given that a 20% DC means 12s on, 48s off, over the whole project it would take the machine a full minute to do each 2” or so of weld bead.

When buying a welder, the advice is to get one that has at least 60% DC at the output you will tend to use, rather than to look at the maximum output. The quality can be estimated by how the DC falls off as output rises.

It is only a 110V hobby wire feeder, be gentle!

That said, I've only encountered a problem with duty cycle once while running multiple passes on some structural 1/4" framing for my truck front/rear bumper/trailer hitches. And that was a lot of continuous welding!

Note I'm always using 0.35 wire at max current, maybe one setting down if thinner base material to avoid blowing through, I've put about 5-6 10lb spools through the machine so far. So as far as complaints go, the only thing I would have is that it definitely does not have enough grunt to run aluminium through a spool gun.

 

[Guineafowl]

It is only a 110V hobby wire feeder, be gentle!

That said, I've only encountered a problem with duty cycle once while running multiple passes on some structural 1/4" framing for my truck front/rear bumper/trailer hitches. And that was a lot of continuous welding!

Note I'm always using 0.35 wire at max current, maybe one setting down if thinner base material to avoid blowing through, I've put about 5-6 10lb spools through the machine so far. So as far as complaints go, the only thing I would have is that it definitely does not have enough grunt to run aluminium through a spool gun.

Horses for courses, as they say. I have always tried to go for machines slightly overrated for intended purpose, on the grounds of flexibility and longevity!

 

[essenmein]

Horses for courses, as they say. I have always tried to go for machines slightly overrated for intended purpose, on the grounds of flexibility and longevity!

Its one of those things, its my first welder, bought used (older Lincoln mig pak) with budget constraints. Once we move and I have a larger shop a larger machine is planned, ideally multi-process, at least MIG/TIG for mild steel/SS/Al.

But for $250 and so far zero problems, I really have nothing to complain about with my little welder!

 

[sophiecentaur]

But for $250 and so far zero problems, I really have nothing to complain about with my little welder!

I paid a lot less than that for mine (second hand) and the only weak link in the chain is ME. Working on the principle that the best results may possibly be limited by the equipment and the rest are operator error, it's really not bad.

Beware of enthusiasts and experts when taking advice about what to buy. I also fall into that category for some things but I often question whether the money I have spent on posh gear was really worth it. But, otoh, owning and using something nice is very pleasant.
I went over the top for several purchases but that cheap welder and the other few machine tools I have, have been really worth their salt.
"Buy cheap, buy twice" is a good motto but sometimes buying three things is better than ending up with just one.

 

[cmb]

How is it possible for a welding machine to end up creating more power than what it started with if that is physically impossible? For ex; 200 amp @ 28vdc welding machine. starts out with main voltage being 120v @ 20amps = 2400 watts then converts it to 200 amps at 28vdc which = 5,600 watts of power.

How indeed? Measure the input and output, and let us know ... maybe you will have discovered a solution to all our energy needs?

I would assume this is referring to strike voltage and subsequently operating current. It will be a function of the welding configuration that will determine what the voltage is pulled down to by the load once the arc is struck.