How often do you eat meat?

[Moonbear]

Are you actually going to say something of value, or just make half-arsed sarcastic comments that don't apply to any logic or reasoning? I would reply if you tried to say anything of value. Waiting.

He actually explained a while back in this thread how to combine foods to get complete proteins (meaning ensuring all the essential amino acids are included). Not all vegetarians pay attention to this or are careful about it. He also seems to eat cheese and dairy (unless his capuccinos are made with soy milk :yuck:), so he's getting protein from those sources too.

 

[Moonbear]

If I had the time to cook everyday and if nearby eateries provided decent vegetarian fare, I could switch to vegetarianism easily enough...I think.

Do you think it's possible to find decent vegetarian fare in Ohio? I find it hard to find halfway decent produce, despite all the farming in this state, so sure wouldn't want to rely on that as my only source of nutrition. Maybe it's better up in Columbus than it is here, but I really miss farmers' markets! I thought there'd be more out where there is a lot more agriculture...there are farmers' markets everywhere in NJ, even when I'm not sure where the farms are!

 

[Moonbear]

Oooh, I've found the solution for those meat-lovers conflicted by not wanting to kill animals to get their meat:

United States Patent
6,835,390

Vein
December 28, 2004

Method for producing tissue engineered meat for consumption

Abstract

A non-human tissue engineered meat product and a method for producing such meat product are disclosed. The meat product comprises muscle cells that are grown ex vivo and is used for food consumption. The muscle cells may be grown and attached to a support structure and may be derived from any non-human cells. The meat product may also comprise other cells such as fat cells or cartilage cells, or both, that are grown ex vivo together with the muscle cells.

All the meat, none of the guilt! LOL!

 

[Les Sleeth]

Are you actually going to say something of value, or just make half-arsed sarcastic comments that don't apply to any logic or reasoning? I would reply if you tried to say anything of value. Waiting.

As Moonbear points out, I've already said it. I'm not sure how much time I want to spend answering someone who doesn't know what they are talking about.

I am quite familiar with body-building, meat-gorging, bulking up theories. I've been lectured over the years by friends who were into it. Their facts, like yours, are carefully chosen to support high protein consumption. Study all the health facts associated with meat eating and get back to me. Adding muscle mass isn't the most important issue of health.

But speaking of logic and reasoning, what about these gems:

"Refusing to eat meat for any reason regarding health or wellness is just plain stupid."

"And for the record, if you say I don't care about the animals because I eat a lot of meat, well, guess what: the people harvesting the animals don't care what you think. You're doing just as little as I am about it."

If you are going to reason like that, why should you expect a serious answer.

 

[Les Sleeth]

Oooh, I've found the solution for those meat-lovers conflicted by not wanting to kill animals to get their meat . . . All the meat, none of the guilt! LOL!

Mmmmmmmmmm . . . and appetizing too! :!!) :!!) :!!)

 

[KingNothing]

As Moonbear points out, I've already said it. I'm not sure how much time I want to spend answering someone who doesn't know what they are talking about.

How do I not know what I'm talking about? I didn't say anything false whatsoever. If I did, say so, but so far your only responses have been sarcastic ones.

I am quite familiar with body-building, meat-gorging, bulking up theories. I've been lectured over the years by friends who were into it. Their facts, like yours, are carefully chosen to support high protein consumption. Study all the health facts associated with meat eating and get back to me. Adding muscle mass isn't the most important issue of health.

body building is very healthy. I'm not sure what you mean by meat-gorging, and bulking up sounds to be the same as the first. The fact of the matter is that eating meat is healthier than not. If you want to argue it, then argue it, but don't just say "go research" as if I'm clueless. That's like going to a debate and saying "Reasearch this, I'm sure you'll find something that goes my way."

And as far as the "gems" as you called them, I didn't and still don't have a problem with what I said. Do you have something to contradict what I'm saying, or not?

And here's some great logic of your own:
"I have this theory that eating meat requires more energy (for digestion) than not eating it. So once you stop eating meat, your overall need for calories drops."

Pardon me for not having a nicer way to say this...but...duh! Eating anything requires more energy for digestion than not eating it. Something would have to not be digested at all in order for that to not be true. And it's a well-known fact that protein fuels metabolism, so of course if you take in less your metabolism will drop. If you take that 'theory' a little further, you get low metabolism. Low metabolism a.k.a. hypothyroidism is usually not considered a good thing, and among other things is associated with weakness, depression, and memory loss.

"Vegetarians . . . the new oppressed class. I think we need our rights preserved with anti-discrimination laws, and a tax break because it costs more to eat healthy (due to lack of mass production)."

Are you claiming that vegetarianism is healthier than eating meat? That's just plain baseless. A very careful vegetarian (as such there are few, you seem to be one of the few smart ones who still tries to eat healthy) can form a decent diet, but an equally careful meat-eater will have a better diet.

"To say "poisoned" might sound overdramatic, but the consequences always involve nausea and diarrhea, and on occasion has involved hurling one's dinner on the way home from the restaurant."

Does that sound healthy to you? When you're body outright rejects a food that it's clearly designed to accept (and please dont say that we werent meant to eat meat, that belongs in the biology section and that's pretty much a waste of time), and a food that it originally did accept, that's a bad sign. It's not supposed to do that.

Also, you said at some earlier point that you get over sickness just as fast if not faster than your meat-eating friends. Do you honestly blame that on the fact that you don't eat meat? Protein is known for building and rebuilding bodily tissues. It's not known for things like fighting a virus or infection. While I'm not a biology expert, and it doesn't appear you are either, that definitely seems like a whole nother area of biology. When you get a cold, for example, they tell you to drink lots of fluids. By that they usually mean water, which doesn't concern meat or protein at all. They don't tell you to or to not eat meat. The only way you could really even make a point out of your healing ability is if for a while (say a year) you ate meat and recovered slower during that time. If you want to test the tissue rebuilding aspect, conduct a test with you and a person on a high protein diet, and give yourselves each a good 2-inch cut in non-vital place such as the lower part of your leg. See who heals faster.

"However, I have heard meat can make one aggressive, mean-spirited, lacking in compassion"

Protein has been shown to increase testosterone, and testosterone has been linked in a few studies to produce more slighty more 'on the edge' tempers. However, more studies report that testosterone has positive effects on a person's mood. Testosterone has other good benefits. For example it's also shown to increase the hardness of a man's erection and provide more energy during sex. More benefits of testosterone and different types of testosterone can be found here: http://www.cenegenics.com/drafts/draft20.html [Broken]

The fact that you are a vegetarian and manage to be not doing bad doesn't say anythign about your diet. Most of the people that answered the poll said they do eat at least some meat, and I doubt most of them will tell you they are unhealthy. Just because you managed to stay (from what I gathered) at least moderately healthy on a vegertarian diet, that doesn't mean it's necessarily a healthy choice to make.

 

[Les Sleeth]

How do I not know what I'm talking about? I didn't say anything false whatsoever. If I did, say so, but so far your only responses have been sarcastic ones.

That’s true (about my sarcasm) because first you were rude (its never good to call people stupid), and then you followed rudeness by being misinformed. Apparantly all you’ve looked at is what supports bulking up, and ignored the huge amount of evidence indicating eating too much meat poses substantial health risks.

In terms of people being “stupid” for not eating or restricting meat, when you read my second post on risks of meat and benefits of avoiding it, make sure to read Loma Linda University’s article, part of which states “But since protein is well supplied from a variety of plant foods, and deficiency is rare among vegetarians, [my italics] the fact that meat supplies this nutrient is of little importance. Furthermore, while vegetarians have adequate protein intake, most Westerners get far too much. High protein, from meat in particular, may adversely affect bone health.”

Body building is very healthy.

Okay, I accept that.

The fact of the matter is that eating meat is healthier than not. If you want to argue it, then argue it, but don't just say "go research" as if I'm clueless. That's like going to a debate and saying "Reasearch this, I'm sure you'll find something that goes my way."

I usually never tell someone to do their research, but you are so under-informed its absurd. But if you insist, I’ll do your research for you (in a second post). First however, let me respond to all your examples of my lack of logic. I can’t see how they compare to you calling non-meat eaters stupid, or to saying that not eating meat is just as much of “doing nothing” for animal cruelty as those who do.

And here's some great logic of your own:
Les said: "I have this theory that eating meat requires more energy (for digestion) than not eating it. So once you stop eating meat, your overall need for calories drops."

Pardon me for not having a nicer way to say this...but...duh! Eating anything requires more energy for digestion than not eating it. Something would have to not be digested at all in order for that to not be true. And it's a well-known fact that protein fuels metabolism, so of course if you take in less your metabolism will drop. If you take that 'theory' a little further, you get low metabolism. Low metabolism a.k.a. hypothyroidism is usually not considered a good thing, and among other things is associated with weakness, depression, and memory loss.

Duh, eh? Meat is a highly concentrated protein. It takes more energy to digest it than less concentrated proteins. Give me complete plant proteins any day over meat for ease and speed of digestion. I know, I’ve eaten both.

Les said: "Vegetarians . . . the new oppressed class. I think we need our rights preserved with anti-discrimination laws, and a tax break because it costs more to eat healthy (due to lack of mass production)."

Are you claiming that vegetarianism is healthier than eating meat? That's just plain baseless. A very careful vegetarian (as such there are few, you seem to be one of the few smart ones who still tries to eat healthy) can form a decent diet, but an equally careful meat-eater will have a better diet.

I was joking, but your crack about being “one of the few smart ones” is why I am on your case. You are being condescending while simultaneously ignorant of all the research suggesting less meat leads to better health.

Les said: "To say "poisoned" might sound overdramatic, but the consequences always involve nausea and diarrhea, and on occasion has involved hurling one's dinner on the way home from the restaurant."

Does that sound healthy to you? When you're body outright rejects a food that it's clearly designed to accept (and please dont say that we werent meant to eat meat, that belongs in the biology section and that's pretty much a waste of time), and a food that it originally did accept, that's a bad sign. It's not supposed to do that. Also, you said at some earlier point that you get over sickness just as fast if not faster than your meat-eating friends. Do you honestly blame that on the fact that you don't eat meat?

Well, we’ll see how “clearly designed” it is when I post the health risks. However, if I don’t eat beans and rice for a couple of years, there is no problem eating them again. How do you explain that? We get used to meat while we are young and adaptable, like we can with cigarettes, but if we quit and try to go back, it makes you sick.

You know, I ate meat three times a day for 25 years of my life (good ol’ Southern cooking/attitudes about meat). It’s not like I don’t know about it, and how it feels. I had that to compare my new health to. I noticed I felt better almost immediately. Lighter, cleaner, more energy, a clearer head, less severe symptoms when I got a cold or flu . . .

Look, eat all the meat you want, just don’t think you know all about a meatless diet when you know absolutely nothing about it!

Les said: "However, I have heard meat can make one aggressive, mean-spirited, lacking in compassion"

Protein has been shown to increase testosterone, and testosterone has been linked in a few studies to produce more slighty more 'on the edge' tempers. However, more studies report that testosterone has positive effects on a person's mood. Testosterone has other good benefits. For example it's also shown to increase the hardness of a man's erection and provide more energy during sex.

I think I’ll avoid the testosterone issue except to say I’m sure the world would be a far better place if there were LOTS more testosterone running through men’s veins (you agree Moonbear, right?). In any case, the comments of mine you quoted was, again, me being sarcastic to what I considered a rude post.

The fact that you are a vegetarian and manage to be not doing bad doesn't say anythign about your diet. Most of the people that answered the poll said they do eat at least some meat, and I doubt most of them will tell you they are unhealthy. Just because you managed to stay (from what I gathered) at least moderately healthy on a vegertarian diet, that doesn't mean it's necessarily a healthy choice to make.

Most of the people answering that poll are young, like you, and don’t know what a lifetime of meat eating is going to do to them. Me, I’ve watched almost my entire, heavy-meat-eating family, and their friends, die (I’m 58, so it’s natural I’d see that). Almost everyone had some complications from meat or poor diet (like too much refined foods). Heavily clogged veins has been a big killer (my father included), as has colon cancer (two close relatives) and breast cancer (sister, and several other relatives). Is an increased risk of cancer and heart disease associated with meat eating? Well, tune into my next post!

 

[Les Sleeth]

Risks & Benefits

Risks of eating too much meat

Colon Cancer risks:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,144062,00.html is an article published last week the mainstream news (selfAdjoint referred to it). An excerpt from the article says, “Bad news for beef eaters: Red meat really does increase your risk of colon cancer. It's not exactly news. Many studies suggest that people who eat the most meat get the most cancer. Now a huge, 20-year study from the American Cancer Society confirms these findings. The bottom line: Those who eat the most red meat — beef and/or pork and/or processed meat products — get colon cancer 30 to 40 percent more.”

Heart Disease risks:
Here is a short article on the danger of cholesterol from fatty red meat, although I’d think everyone knows this by now.

Rheumatoid Arthritis Risk:
http://www.healthtalk.ca/arthritis_risk_12022004_1992.php [Broken] is an article published last month it says, “If you like to eat red meat you may be at an increased risk of developing rheumatoid arthritis, according to a British study in the December issue of Arthritis & Rheumatism. . . . The researchers found that people who eat a lot of red meat have twice the risk of developing rheumatoid arthritis. They also found that patients who consumed high levels of red meat combined with other meat products had a similar risk.”

Increased Breast Cancer Risk:
http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/9811/17/breast.cancer.meat/ [Broken] is an article on how eating well-done meat can quadruple the risk of breast cancer.

Increased Risk for Endometriosis:
Here a study shows that “. . . women who ate meat every day were up to twice as likely to have endometriosis than women who ate less meat and more fruit and vegetables.”

Increased Risk of Gout:
Here is an article which discusses, “A pioneering study nails down the dietary causes of the painful, joint-wrecking disease gout, and they turn out to be similar to those for heart disease and stroke . . . Foremost, a diet rich in red meats is associated with an increased risk of gout, says a report in the March 11 issue of the New England Journal of Medicine that's based on data from the long-running Health Professionals Follow-up Study.”

Link indicated to Increased Risk of Diabetes:
http://www.healthandage.com/Home/gm=20!gid2=2809 [Broken] a study is reported on the risks of the type of iron found in red meat. An excerpt says, “The diets were evaluated for total iron intake, total heme iron1, heme iron derived from red meat, and heme iron from non-red meat sources. . . . in the case of total heme iron, there was a clear trend, suggesting that those with the highest heme iron intake were about one-and-a-quarter times more likely to develop diabetes than those with the lowest intake. . . . Those men reporting the highest intake of red meat heme iron were about 1.6 times more likely to develop diabetes than those with the lowest intake.”

Also, among the articles listed in this post are other cited dangers of eating too much red meat such as increased risks for osteoporosis, kidney disease, obesity, food poisoning from E. coli, botulism, salmonella, etc., and for all cancers. Now compare that to:


Benefits of a Vegetarian Diet

Here is a general article by Loma Linda University on the advantages of a vegetarian or nearly vegetarian diet. An excerpt says “Meat is often touted as a super source of nutrients such as protein, iron, and zinc. But are you in danger of deficiency if you don't eat meat? Not if you consume a well-balanced vegetarian diet. A single serving of meat provides roughly 25 grams of protein or about one-half the RDA. This means that the average meat eater gets far more protein than he or she needs, and is at greater risk for problems like osteoporosis and possibly kidney disease. Vegetarians, on the other hand, have adequate but not excessive intakes of protein. A cup of beans provides about 15 grams of protein, and a half cup of grains or vegetables provides about 3 grams. This means that meeting protein needs on a vegetarian diet--with or without animal products like dairy and eggs--is a breeze, provided you eat a variety of plant foods.”

Here is a very interesting article by the Harvard School of Public Health. I don’t know if you are familiar with the “food guide pyramid,” but recently Harvard decided to reorganize it to include what we’ve learned about diets. An excerpt says, “ A decade ago, the U.S. Department of Agriculture created a powerful and enduring icon - the Food Guide Pyramid. This simple illustration can convey in a flash the elements of a healthy diet. Today it is taught in schools, appears in countless media articles and brochures, and even shows up on cereal boxes and food labels. Unfortunately, the information embodied in this pyramid doesn't point the way to healthy eating. Why not? Its blueprint was based on shaky scientific evidence, and it hasn't appreciably changed over the years to reflect major advances in our understanding of the connection between diet and health. . . . As an alternative to the USDA's flawed pyramid, faculty members in the Harvard School of Public Health built the Healthy Eating Pyramid. It resembles the USDA's in shape only. The Healthy Eating Pyramid takes into consideration, and puts into perspective, the wealth of research conducted during the last ten years that has reshaped the definition of healthy eating.”

http://www.vegetarian-diet.info/vegetarian-eating-healthier.htm [Broken] is an excerpt a report from msnbc, “Vegetarian Eating and Vegetarian Diets - Are They Healthier? Yes, say diet nutritionists. Provided the vegetarian diet is balanced. Most studies show that vegetarians face about 30 percent lower risk of death from heart disease than do those who eat meat, fish or poultry. The effects on cancer risk are less consistent, but some studies show cancer deaths are at least 40 percent lower among vegetarians, while others show no difference. Of course, some of the benefits attributed to vegetarian eating may be related to other lifestyle choices: as a group, vegetarians often keep physically active, don’t use tobacco and avoid or limit alcohol. The greater consumption of fruits and vegetables usually associated with a vegetarian diet represents a major health benefit because of the vitamins, minerals, cancer-fighting phytochemicals and dietary fiber they supply. . . . One of the major heart-related benefits of vegetarian eating is probably the low level of cholesterol-raising saturated fat in these diets, but this doesn’t mean completely omitting meat from the diet is necessary for good health. Foods like fish, skinless poultry and even lean red meats don’t add much saturated fat, as long as portions are kept moderate.”

 

[Les Sleeth]

New Risks to Human Health

Here's an article released within the last 24 hours about a new sort of danger associated with meat. An excerpt says: "'Meatpacking is the most dangerous factory job in America,' said Lance Compa, the report’s author and a labor rights researcher for Human Rights Watch. 'Dangerous conditions are cheaper for companies—and the government does next to nothing.' *The 175-page report, Blood, Sweat, and Fear: Workers’ Rights in U.S. Meat and Poultry Plants, shows how the increasing volume and speed of production coupled with close quarters, poor training and insufficient safeguards have made meat and poultry work so hazardous. On each work shift, workers make up to 30,000 hard-cutting motions with sharp knives, causing massive repetitive motion injuries and frequent lacerations. Workers often do not receive compensation for workplace injuries because companies fail to report injuries, delay and deny claims, and take reprisals against workers who file them."


Though just making Headline news, the problem has been known about for years, as indicated here.


A book review of Slaughterhouse Blues found http://www.kuconnection.org/2003dec/places_1.asp [Broken] describes how fifteen years ago, over a lunch of juicy hamburgers in Wichita, a KU anthropologist and a social geographer launched a collaborative study of today's meat and poultry industry and its impact on employees and the communities where they live and work. An excerpt from the book review: "The authors examine the wages and working conditions in meat and poultry plants in a chapter titled "The Human Price of Our Meat." Recent salaries for line workers range from $18,720 to $23,296 a year in a southwest Kansas beef plant and from $14,144 to $16,120 in a Kentucky chicken plant. Since the 1970s, occupational injuries and illnesses among meat processing workers have been three times greater than the rate in manufacturing overall. Interviews with poultry line workers candidly expose the risks of work on meat and poultry lines and how workers cope with difficult and dangerous working conditions."


http://rwor.org/a/v19/920-29/920/storm.htm [Broken] is another article. An excerpt, "Juan Garcia's hands, even after surgery, are useless. No one will hire him. He has been without work for 22 months. He says IBP paid about $9,000 for his medical treatment and that the company asked him to sign a paper saying he was taking unpaid "vacation." Not understanding, Garcia signed, and was out of a job.

Meatpacking has the highest injury rate of all U.S. industries--36 percent of the workers are seriously injured each year. Many workers suffer from repetitive-motion injuries, cuts and back injuries. And the actual rate of injury is probably even higher than statistics show because many immigrant workers don't report injuries because they are afraid they will lose their job.

Workers say the company "headhunts" injured workers--targeting them for dismissal or demeaning work. In 1987, one IBP plant was found to have kept two sets of injury logs. And while Latinos make up about a quarter of the work force at IBP and have the most dangerous jobs, Latino last names showed up on less than 5 percent of the worker comp claims filed between 1987 and 1995.

IBP workers are not eligible for the company health plan for their first six months on the job. After this, a worker is eligible for health coverage that covers 80 percent of cost. But many immigrant workers can't afford to pay even 20 percent of skyrocketing health costs.

Some workers end up working only a few months before they are injured, fired, or forced to quit. And the IBP plant in Storm Lake, which now has 1,200 workers, has an annual turnover rate of 83 percent!

In an article about Storm Lake in The Nation, Marc Cooper tells the story of one Laotian worker named Symery who took a job cutting the meat off backbones. In his fifth month on the job, 30 days before the company would begin to grant its limited health insurance, Symery slashed his palm open. He paid for the medical care himself. A second accident left him disabled and he now has a permanently crooked wrist. But IBP only recognizes the report of the doctor it employs, so Symery is certified as fit to work and is now without a job and without any income."


http://www.humboldt.edu/~osprey/fall00/union.html [Broken] is a personal story of someone involved in the meat industry. An excerpt, "My mother's hands are ugly. Perhaps they were beautiful once, but now they are distorted from 20 years of cutting, carving, and slicing pieces of meat for 8 hours at a time. Her fingers are mangled, and scarred, you'll see no trace of elegance, feminity, or of grace, instead you see the 20 years of her life, where she sacrificed for things far more important than her hands or her body. Hands manipulated to work and work, hands that will look awkward when she holds her future grandchildren, hands that pain her despite all the salves and balms she rubs on them that never penetrate down to root of the pain, to the joints rubbed . . ."