How Should High-Value, Fragile Equipment Be Transported Safely?

[humanino]

For the upcoming experiment I am working on, we bought a 100,000$ power supply. This is just a 2 m high box, full of HV electronics in order to deliver a controlled 500A current under a stable 5V or less. It feeds magnetic superconducting coils. Anyway, this box was written "FRAGILE" on it, "THIS SIDE UP", and had all the warnings required. Besides, the transporter signed for the shipping under well-defined stringent conditions, such as "using an air cushion" and other precautions that have not been respected. They dropped the box from at least 3m high and never told us anything. Would we have turned it on, any person within a few meters around the box could be dead now (possible electrical arcs). Maybe less important, but kind of important to me, it has been two years now I began working on the preparation : today, some people say this experiment simply cannot take place. Others prefer to wait for expertise.

 

[Evo]

This is terrible!

If the power supply has to be replaced, how many months will it take?

How difficult will it be to get the experiment re-scheduled?

 

[humanino]

If the experiment is re-scheduled, it will take place in two years : there are many other experiments scheduled after ours, among which many are basically ready to begin. Since beam time is so expensive, we cannot afford to wait, even a few weeks is not reasonable.

 

[Evo]

If the experiment is re-scheduled, it will take place in two years

OMG! So it will delay your PHD 2 more years?

there are many other experiments scheduled after ours, among which many are basically ready to begin. Since beam time is so expensive, we cannot afford to wait, even a few weeks is not reasonable.

Hopefully there will be another suitable power supply you can borrow. I will keep my fingers crossed.

Evo<----puts her arm around humanino We will send MIH after the trucker that did this. (she's been practicing)

Next time you need anything shipped, let me know, we can put it on the supersonic RV. There are plenty of cushions in the RV lounge.

 

[dextercioby]

I hope they gave you back the hundred grand...

Daniel.

P.S.Work in theory.Pencils are not fragile material...

 

[dextercioby]

Excuse my irony.I didn't realize it was that bad...

Daniel.

 

[Moonbear]

If the experiment is re-scheduled, it will take place in two years : there are many other experiments scheduled after ours, among which many are basically ready to begin. Since beam time is so expensive, we cannot afford to wait, even a few weeks is not reasonable.

That's awful! Here's your introduction to the American legal system...SUE the trucking company, not only for the cost of the equipment, but for the cost of lost time on the project (2 years of even a lowly grad student stipend adds up to a lot of money, include your tuition fees, your airfare to the US, lodging expenses, etc.) I don't know how easily you can do that, but at least thinking about it should help make you feel better...maybe.

They should definitely be responsible for the cost of the equipment damaged if they were negligent in their handling, especially when proper precautions were specified. Dropping something that says "FRAGILE" is definitely negligent.

Of course none of that helps you with the delay it will cause to your project. Is this experiment essential to your PhD, or can you substitute something else considering this was really something entirely outside of your control?

Have a good cry, stomp around, punch a wall, get drunk...you deserve to be mad today.

 

[humanino]

OMG! So it will delay your PHD 2 more years?

I would actually either begin another one, or just switch to another experiment.

Evo<----puts her arm around humanino We will send MIH after the trucker that did this. (she's been practicing)

Next time you need anything shipped, let me know, we can put it on the supersonic RV. There are plenty of cushions in the RV lounge.

Thank you Evo. You are so nice.

 

[humanino]

Excuse my irony.I didn't realize it was that bad...

Don't worry, I am actually considering to switch to theory. The reason I chose experimental physics was that to me, this separation theory/experiment is artificial and this project is closer to my conception : first predict new phenomena (this was done by theoreticians) and then confront to Nature (this is the difficult part).

 

[Moonbear]

Don't worry, I am actually considering to switch to theory. The reason I chose experimental physics was that to me, this separation theory/experiment is artificial and this project is closer to my conception : first predict new phenomena (this was done by theoreticians) and then confront to Nature (this is the difficult part).

It's good you have a back-up plan on this. At least now when someone asks why you went into theoretical instead of experimental physics, you'll have a really good story to tell.

 

[humanino]

SUE the trucking company

The insurance compagny had been notified, and the process has already begun

Is this experiment essential to your PhD, or can you substitute something else considering this was really something entirely outside of your control?

This experiment was actually the core of my PhD : prepare it (almost done), do it, and analyze it.

Have a good cry, stomp around, punch a wall, get drunk...you deserve to be mad today.

I will, but i could have even without this good pretext

 

[Evo]

That's awful! Here's your introduction to the American legal system...SUE the trucking company, not only for the cost of the equipment, but for the cost of lost time on the project (2 years of even a lowly grad student stipend adds up to a lot of money, include your tuition fees, your airfare to the US, lodging expenses, etc.) I don't know how easily you can do that, but at least thinking about it should help make you feel better...maybe.

Yeah, sue them! I think all of us at PF that are sharing your pain are also due financial compensation from that company for our mental anguish.

 

[humanino]

Yeah, sue them! I think all of us at PF that are sharing your pain are also due financial compensation from that company for our mental anguish.

This is indeed an invaluable loss for the entire mankind, intellectual progress is so important

 

[Moonbear]

This experiment was actually the core of my PhD : prepare it (almost done), do it, and analyze it.

I feel so disappointed for you. I can't even imagine how you must feel right now. I think I'd be feeling sick to my stomach over it.

But, I can tell you this much...if you can get yourself through this experience and stay in science, you'll be able to survive anything else thrown your way.

 

[Moonbear]

Yeah, sue them! I think all of us at PF that are sharing your pain are also due financial compensation from that company for our mental anguish.

Was this funded by US or French tax dollars? Darn right I want compensation if that trucking company just led to the waste of my tax money!

We're here for you. If you need to rant, rave, fume, swear in little asterisks (I guess we can't let you around the censoring rule), go for it! If I could give you a hug and buy your drinks tonight, I would.

 

[tribdog]

You should have written the label in English. Who the heck understands French? "Fragile" what does that mean?

 

[eax]

You should have written the label in English. Who the heck understands French? "Fragile" what does that mean?

it up
[/url]

 

[dextercioby]

That's disgusting... Someone making fun of Tribby's jokes...

Daniel.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I'm sorry to hear about this Humanino. In addition to a another member here, a friend of mine had similar bad luck. It may not help much but you're not alone.

Also, usually any incidental or consequential damages are waived under the shipping contract. The only liability is the value of the goods. You can sue anybody for any reason, but your chances of winning may not be very good.

 

[tribdog]

it up
[/url]

shouldn't you be in bed?

 

[Evo]

You can sue anybody for any reason, but your chances of winning may not be very good.

That's why I suggested we just send MIH. Heck, perhaps the entire sisterhood should go out on this one. I could use a little rifle practice.

 

[Moonbear]

Also, usually any incidental or consequential damages are waived under the shipping contract. The only liability is the value of the goods. You can sue anybody for any reason, but your chances of winning may not be very good.

It's always worth looking into. There's a difference between something getting damaged because the truck hit one too many potholes that couldn't have been anticipated, or got in an accident along the way, and someone outright dropping something labeled fragile, and it sounds like other precautions (this end up) weren't heeded either from Humanino's original post. In that case, it's negligence, so I don't think the contract will hold up in that case. Of course, you may have to directly sue the individual employees for their part in it, which wouldn't get much since I doubt anyone working for a trucking company is making enough money to pay back any judgement against them, but you have to start with the company.

 

[Moonbear]

That's why I suggested we just send MIH. Heck, perhaps the entire sisterhood should go out on this one. I could use a little rifle practice.

Woo hoo! Lock and load sista!

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Are the sisters for hire? I have a couple of customers that I'd like you to visit.

 

[Moonbear]

Are the sisters for hire? I have a couple of customers that I'd like you to visit.

First we need to take care of one of Evo's customers who seems to take her health and safety too lightly, then we can get to your customers.

 

[humanino]

Was this funded by US or French tax dollars?

The power supply was paid by your DOE, so yes you can be mad !

I'm sorry to hear about this Humanino. In addition to a another member here, a friend of mine had similar bad luck. It may not help much but you're not alone.

Yes I am aware of this. Actually, there was an electrical accident at SLAC in October. One guy violated 6 different safety rules, and was violently burnt. Since then, SLAC is simply shut down for physics. It represents many people having to find a new PhD subject (foreign student often have less time than you do in the US).

 

[marlon]

Humanino, are you going into theoretical physics now ? If so, join the club man...Hopefully, i will be starting my phd in october on Density Functional theory and general QM-applications for nanotechnology and micro-electronics. It is theoretical but certainly no hardcore QFT like my thesis.

What would you do in theoretical physics, if you'd change ??

marlon

 

[franznietzsche]

That's disgusting... Someone making fun of Tribby's jokes...

Daniel.

He had it coming on that one.

 

[humanino]

What would you do in theoretical physics, if you'd change ??

My dear Godfather, I would in any case stick in QCD. Strong interaction physics and GPDs. Probably compute GPDs on the lattice using chiral and/or instanton framework. It is vague enough to be true

[thread=41885]GPDs[/thread]
arjournals.annualreviews.org/doi/pdf/10.1146/annurev.nucl.54.070103.181302[/URL]

 

[Gokul43201]

Humanino, I'm terribly sorry about the disaster. How much time had you invested into the project till now ? Is this a custom built power supply ? I haven't heard of an off-the-shelf (Oxford Instruments or other such) supply that puts out 500A. The common ones (like the ~1 KW supplies) go up to only 120A (cost ~$13,000).

Whatever you are putting in your magnet must be pretty big - meaning bigger than a cubic centimeter. I can't think of any other obvious reason for a 500A supply. And I can only imagine the time and effort that must have gone into the design of the magnet.

Hope you can recover from this without too much of a hiccup.

 

[humanino]

Thanks Gokul !
the problem with this power supply, is that it should work at low voltage : from 0 to 5 V only. (Be careful not to think in terms of U=RI, but U=-LdI/dt because in this case R is about 0)

And by the way : a cubic centimeter is not big

We have not found any solution yet...

 

[Gokul43201]

Thanks Gokul !
the problem with this power supply, is that it should work at low voltage : from 0 to 5 V only. (Be careful not to think in terms of U=RI, but U=-LdI/dt because in this case R is about 0)

Don't worry, I'm aware of this. It's common to keep and eye on the voltage to confirm beginning and end of ramping. Also, if your magnet quenches from low fields, the only indicator may be the voltage across the magnet leads.

And by the way : a cubic centimeter is not big

More than a few cc can be quite "big" depending on the fields. How high a field do you go up to ?

We have not found any solution yet...

Surely the transporter's insurance will have to cover the cost of the power supply. Is the problem due to the time it takes to build a new supply ? And just out of curiosity, who did you buy the power supply from ?

 

[Moonbear]

Is the problem due to the time it takes to build a new supply ? And just out of curiosity, who did you buy the power supply from ?

I was under the impression he just spent two years designing and building it himself, and it was being transported from the location where it was built to the location where it was going to be used.

 

[cronxeh]

You kno what can deliver 100-1000 amps easily.. what would be the cheapest and most durable power supply you can get your hands on.. A bolt of lightning. Try it. Launch a rocket with attached cable into a cloud, and change the current if you need to - step it down, filter, alternate, etc

 

[Gokul43201]

I was under the impression he just spent two years designing and building it himself, and it was being transported from the location where it was built to the location where it was going to be used.

It would be very inefficient use of resources to have a grad student build a magnet power supply. There are companies (like Oxford Instruments) that do nothing but this, and they will take custom jobs. Humanino (I suspect) has been designing the overall experiment (of which the magnet is a small, yet essential part).

 

[Moonbear]

It would be very inefficient use of resources to have a grad student build a magnet power supply. There are companies (like Oxford Instruments) that do nothing but this, and they will take custom jobs. Humanino (I suspect) has been designing the overall experiment (of which the magnet is a small, yet essential part).

Ah, then I probably just misunderstood the issue. I had the impression this was going to set him back a full two years, but perhaps it's not quite that bad...or maybe he was considering switching to theoretical physics anyway and this is a convenient "excuse" to help him make up his mind.

 

[humanino]

Don't worry, I'm aware of this. It's common to keep and eye on the voltage to confirm beginning and end of ramping. Also, if your magnet quenches from low fields, the only indicator may be the voltage across the magnet leads.

Yes indeed Gokul, you are right. You could be of precious help I guess. Indeed the power supply itslef is controlled through voltages measurement. Any beggining of quench triggers a system to remove the liquid helium in the vessel, so the entire coils become resistive. You know all of this I'm certain.

How high a field do you go up to ?

5 T in the center, but it is especially designed to be a confined field.

Just out of curiosity, who did you buy the power supply from ?

Danphysics.

 

[humanino]

Ah, then I probably just misunderstood the issue. I had the impression this was going to set him back a full two years, but perhaps it's not quite that bad...or maybe he was considering switching to theoretical physics anyway and this is a convenient "excuse" to help him make up his mind.

You are not totally wrong...

Yet, if we do not find any solution within a week or so, the administration is going to start threatening us with postponing, which for me implies the need for a new project. It took me a while to decide between theory and experiment. Now, I would go for theory in order to avoid all the issues not depending on me. In theory you are more lonely, but at least you do not depend on the iron market in China

 

[Gokul43201]

5 T in the center, but it is especially designed to be a confined field.

Our magnet has been used last at a little over 16T. At these fields, it's quite tricky to build a magnet that can maintain the desired homogeneity over more than a few cc of volume around the magnet center.

Oh, and a quench from 16T is quite a spectacular event. Our persistent current switch allows low-field quenches that are not disastrous.

One more question, if you don't mind : What kind of cryostat do you use - and how low do you go ?

 

[humanino]

Our magnet has been used last at a little over 16T.

Impressive ! Homogenous 16T, actually I guess it is tricky ! For us, homogeneity was not among the specifications. We needed an intense field in the forward direction, that decrease rapidely in the transverse direction. This field map is logarithmic :

http://www.jlab.org/~fxgirod/field_map.jpg

The blue points correspond to constrained spots, where another magnet should not receive too high mechanical constraints.

What kind of cryostat do you use - and how low do you go ?

We use a standard liquid helium vessel. We work at 4.2 K.

 

[humanino]

And just out of curiosity, who did you buy the power supply from ?

Here is the http://www.danfysik.dk/pdf/custom_designed/SYSTEM-8500-Brochure.pdf from Danphysics of our power supply. It is standard but has to be customized.

 

[Gokul43201]

We needed an intense field in the forward direction, that decrease rapidely in the transverse direction.

Usually this is done by running a shorter second winding backwards, whose center is displaced from the main winding along z.

I should have remembered that nuclear/high energy folks use high current magnets. I think ZEUS has (or had) a 1000A magnet...

The blue points correspond to constrained spots, where another magnet should not receive too high mechanical constraints.

What are the distance units in the field map ?

We use a standard liquid helium vessel. We work at 4.2 K.

Hope you don't mind if I shoot a few more questions at you. Does your cryostat have a liquid helium level sensor ? If it does, is it a superconducting sensor or a capacitive sensor, or something else ?

 

[humanino]

I should have remembered that nuclear/high energy folks use high current magnets. I think ZEUS has (or had) a 1000A magnet...

Actually, our main magnet can run up to 3300A
It is not shunt, so this current must be constantly delivered. The shunt would require a too complicated security system in case of quench.

What are the distance units in the field map ?

those are meters. I don't know how to convert to inch or feet

Does your cryostat have a liquid helium level sensor ? If it does, is it a superconducting sensor or a capacitive sensor, or something else ?

Actually, we monitor the temperature, the pression and the liquid level in the helium vessel. The level is controlled by a supeconducting sensor, it is just a wire whose superconducting part lies inside the liquid, so its resistance simply gives the level.

 

[Gokul43201]

The level is controlled by a supeconducting sensor, it is just a wire whose superconducting part lies inside the liquid, so its resistance simply gives the level.

I suspected this may be the case. I just completed building a capacitive level sensor for one of our cryostats. The problem with a superconducting sensor is that (i) it makes RF noise (at the step edge) every time you turn it on or off (our signals are very small ~pV), (ii) if you leave it on continuously, you radiate too much heat into the cryostat (this cryostat operates at ~0.3K, so we have to be careful about not putting in heat). The advantage of a capacitive sensor is that it is not dissipative ; the tricky part is that the dielectric constant of liquid helium is only about 4% greater than that of helium gas. So, the signal is pretty small.

 

[Evo]

Since humanino's been so busy, I will give an update. (he's been in a hole all week pulling cable with a Russian guy)

The power supply was repaired and the magnet works!

 

[humanino]

thank you my precious Evo

indeed, it is fixed now, and this required much pain. But we like pain

Unfortunately, alcohol is forbiden here at the lab
when is the next PF party ? there is much to celebrate !

 

[Moonbear]

You're just in time for the PF tour bus to Hawaii. We're going to Honolulu to examine the conditions surrounding the tree where Tsu photographed the virgin mary in smoke. Ivan's even bringing along the grill for some fabulous steaks.

Glad you got it all fixed, even if it was a pain to do. *phew*