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How To Take Control Of Your Government

  1. Sep 26, 2003 #1
    You have a right to petition, this right can also be done far more effeciently over the internet at petition.com-in theory this would be a free web site where people could freely and reasonably discuss the issues and for once the common man and women would have a chance to let there particular understanding of a problem be heard, with sufficient discussion I believe that the common person if informed of the facts has the potential to make a more unbiased and sound decision than most politicians of today. With enough people's signitures petitions could be sent to the government.
    It's no suprise that the president of today should be the son of the president of yesterday, or that a president should lie under oath and then lie to attempt justification to lie under oath, it's no suprise that nobody cares anymore, after all who could stop such a force and who would ever want to go up against such a thing when so many have failed? The answer could be that no one can do it, that every civilization has failed and will eventually fail do to the natural tendencies of decay and growth of corruption, however it may be possible today with these two powers of freedom of speech and advanced and free mass communication that not one person but the majority of people can one day retake control of their government and make decisions for the betterment of all not just a few becuase despite what many people think mutual cooperation is a greater force than any survival of the fittest dogma or philospohy of selfishness.
    The average person can make a difference and they can understand the most complex of issues and they can have a say and I would rather put my faith in 100 common hard working people than any of the so called intellectual elite or political or economic experts, after all it only takes about $500 dollars to give most people a clear conscience.
    I don't have much of the desire to start and see this project through(although I will if nobody else is going to do it) which is why I share the idea with whoever will listen, I do think it would work and someone out there has enough website design knowledge and passion to do it and stick with it.
    The thing I would like to see change or understand is wait staff being taxed on tips, it seems so wrong since politicians are never taxed on their tips.
  2. jcsd
  3. Sep 26, 2003 #2


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    Have you been reading communist stuff like
    Marks & Angels AND drinking at the SAME time ?!
  4. Sep 26, 2003 #3
    Re: Re: How To Take Control Of Your Government

    Were you drinking when you posted this?
  5. Sep 26, 2003 #4


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    Re: Re: Re: How To Take Control Of Your Government

    Hmm... In light of my post in the other
    thread - Cuba or China ?
  6. Sep 26, 2003 #5
    Re: Re: Re: Re: How To Take Control Of Your Government

    What soprt of nonsense is this? Get to the point, bub...or at least quote your post over here...
  7. Sep 26, 2003 #6


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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: How To Take Control Of Your Government

    Well, anyway, so you're into the "every hard working dude
    knows everything" stuff ? Intresting, kin'na explains
    some of your posts now that I think of it.

    Live long and prosper.
  8. Sep 26, 2003 #7


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    No, but this country is supported on the backs of hard working men and women, whom, whether they think so or not, have little or no say in the government. We just pay taxes.

    It sounds like a noble idea, but likely would not succeed, as is apparent.

    edit: Oh ya, another problem, most people doing manual labor don't really have alot of time to spend on the internet. More still can't even afford a pc and internet.
  9. Sep 26, 2003 #8
    No, certainly not that I just believe that there are lots of people who have a particular understanding of a few things that goes beyond the understanding of most people or most people are just not curious about it and if enough of those people had a motive to explain what they know and discuss it with others things could change and people could become aware and at least some control could be put back in the hands of the majority of people. The problem has always been that nobody has the time or resources to go door to door trying to get many people to sign a petition and then hardly anyone has time at the grocery store to stand around and read the material and discuss it, but in such and environment people could not only get better informed about these things but discuss them and possible correct unjust laws through petitioning, otherwise if nobody can do a thing about it then discussing just tends to get people upset.
    People are always complaining about having no say in what happens, this is one possiblity in which people could make a difference, in which a few people who have always known about the wrong of something might have their chance to present their argument to others and get something done about it. I'm not saying it would be easy or it would work for sure or it would all happen overnight, I'm just saying it is a legal right to petition and can be done far more effeciently and with discussion over the internet.
    Just about everyone can find access to a pc and internet connection at the library.
    ok, sometimes I drink and type at the same time.
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 26, 2003
  10. Sep 26, 2003 #9


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    Greetings !

    Well, you are correct and I agree with you on that,
    unfortunatly that is not a luxury people can enjoy
    in their short lives - understanding everything.
    That's why we have experts in every field doing their
    job. Construction engineers build your house and
    politicians are in the government. Ussualy the politicians
    are people who like their jobs - like all of us
    would like to, and people who want to make things
    better and believe they can do it better than others.
    Sometimes they are people who are driven mainly by
    greed, but ussualy they're just ambitious - a basic
    requirement for any successful politician and leader.

    Further more, without the above luxury people become
    pretty easy to manipulate. Today, a single news report
    can change the opinions of people on subjects they shouldn't
    even have opinions on because they practicly know nothing
    about them. A person often judges things according to the
    images he sees in the morning or newspaper titles he glimpses
    in the afternoon and evening. When public opinion is so
    relativly easy to affect it is important for the government
    to try to present and sometimes even advertise things
    so that people will understand what's really going on.

    Perhaps, what is really important and possibly achievable
    is to educate people in the 21st century to respect the
    high level and complexity of modern human knowledge and info
    and teach them to be more open-minded and tactful when
    forming opinions on anything.

    Live long and prosper.
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2003
  11. Sep 26, 2003 #10
    Exactly, this could be the chance for those experts to give their arguments and get people to understand what is really going on so that commoners like myself wouldn't feel as if they were left in the dark, and since they are telling the truth based on researchable facts then there is nothing to fear right?
    Constuction engineers sit in their cozy offices while I build my own house and politicians are elected by me to represent me in my government. What if the minds of people were not so different from Roman times...what if this country really was not so different from any other country except in such broad freedom of speech...what if in ancient times they also believed that they had vaste knowledge and we must have experts and political experts to rule what the common man and women couldn't understand...the more things change the more they stay the same.
  12. Sep 26, 2003 #11
    Politicians are thieves, especially the current crop of Republicans in power...politicians are supposed to serve teh people, but currently they serve big business. It would be positive to have actual average citizens have a real voice in government.
  13. Sep 26, 2003 #12
    When people know what the right thing to do is and they know how to do it then they will do it. It's not the politicians fault I don't think, it seems to be just the way things go and what anyone would do in such a situation, the natural rise and fall of civilizations, the gradual decay of morals that may just be the primary correlation to the rise and fall of nations, but who could say so surely that morals are on the decline and such things really should matter? It's just a feeling really, I don't have much curiosity or interest in politics I just like to play with ideas and this seems like a good one. It's my opinion that the natural tendencies are for each civilization to break down eventually after becomming too oppressive and give way to another one slightly more balanced in power but that the turning point is when most people realize that it is almost almost always the innocent who get walked over by the cold and calculating J.P. Morgans of the world at which the majority take up the philosphy of selfishness and what should happen when most everyone is unscrupulously out for themselves I wonder? If you took away all the fancy clothes and money and showmanship of our great country might we resemble that BarterTown in Thunderdome...real civilized and such? I really wonder how close it would be...

    Anyway all the imaginary problems I think with government don't really matter what is important is that people would at least have a chance to question things and get informed and possibly make a difference, but nobody is going to spend their weekends down at the library researching the field or reading the discussions if it all amounts to be able just to send letters to congress that are often dismissed due to financial concerns and not moral concerns or at best rant about it on a street corner, in my opinion.
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 17, 2003
  14. Sep 27, 2003 #13
    I see a 'petition.com' becoming like 'urbandictionary.com'. A bunch of rambling lunatics not bothering to post what they really should be posting.

    Right, I'm sure you, the proletariat have no idea what taxation is. Unless of course 60%+ of your income is being taxed. I'm leaving out a myriad of other things. Let's also not leave out sales tax. Rich people fuel the U.S. machine and the luxury the majority of the U.S. population enjoys. If you want to whine, go live in Canada or Mexico then you will quickly be scrambling back over the border.

    This isn't a linear economy we're living in. It's big fat and circular. Poor people, middle people and rich people all pay their own salaries through consumerism. The only group I think should be laughing at the American people is the Federal Government.

    However, if you're smart you save your cash up, spend responsibly and invest in stuff. Remember, there is no such thing as a wealth tax so once its in the bank it can only gather interest (You're saying, 'Fish! Isn't this selfish?' no it isn't because it fuels other peoples pay checks and feeds your kids). The key to being successful is managing your cash not landing it big on some bang and bust risk cycle. Of course, you can do that but it's painful and may take a decade or more to yield something.

    Still, if you did that and succeeded you'd be supplying income to your employees, their families and the Feds. They would then go buy stuff or employ other people and the cycle would just churn on. But I suppose the government should tax the **** out of people like that so it is harder for them to succeed. By extension, everyone would hurt.

    But, don't get me wrong. Everything in the extreme is bad. You don't even need to take basic chemistry or social studies (is that that corny piece of bull we use in place of history?) to understand that to much or to little is bad for humans.

    In summation (yes, I'm so crass), well I guess everything you need to hear is up there. But if anything, acknowledge we have a ****ed up tax code.

    I suppose I should be saying 'bleepity bleep bleep bleep' instead of ******* **** **** ****. Hehe, a prithee adieu.
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2003
  15. Sep 27, 2003 #14
    Bleh, new post. What we should be asking ourselves is

    What kind of society can we set up that is built around morals, inalienable individual rights, and the pursuit of happiness?

    Oh yeah, lets not forget, humans have instinct. If you are building a state don't forget that we are subject to our biological conditions. Don't be foolish and think greed and such things are not biologically inherent. We can regulate it, which is necessary but if you try to deny it your asking for human rights violations.

    Freedom of speech and a myriad of other things. If you want to read them all go look in the U.S. constitution. The Bill of Rights is just a preface.
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2003
  16. Sep 27, 2003 #15
    Thanks Phsycho fish it's just that kind of spirit that makes me want to start it myself and see that it does stay respectable.
    I do believe in the wisdom of the common people, I'm not the only one.
  17. Sep 28, 2003 #16


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    What’s different in your concept to distinguish from the thousands of sites doing it already? If you want to stop dogs from chasing cats, there’s a site for you.
  18. Sep 28, 2003 #17
    Thousands? I only found a couple that were dealing with petitions to the US government and of those none where allowing free discussions, I think that's the key is to get people motivated in free discussions like this forum.
  19. Sep 28, 2003 #18
    Politicians generally disregard online petitions, because all they take is a few clicks of buttons and don't show that the petitioners have a strong concern for the the issue.
  20. Oct 7, 2003 #19
    I'm sure there would be many technical problems to overcome but it can be done, in the worst case scenario a statistical sampling could be run of all signitures to find an approximate of which are true but would likely require call backs or something like that. If only 1 in 1000 people had the desire to get involved in government affairs in this way that would be about 300k people. It doesn't really matter if politicians reject petitions what matters is that if people start talking about things on such a scale it could improve things, I mean if people like Kazinsky don't have anywhere to say what they need to say and that word carry to many people then what is the point? Should government grow to be run entirely by money? Is money the ultimate indicator of what is right or wrong? If so then it is as blind an indicator as they come, it seems to be going that way but maybe it's just me. What difference does it make if one is liberal or conservative, improving things is what matters and not all problems can be solved by change or by keeping things the same. It might even give people a chance to question Rush Limbaugh types instead of mostly listening.

    ...actually kazinski might be a bad example, maybe he could have learned more from others than they from him.
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 16, 2003
  21. Oct 14, 2003 #20
    Is it better to have a few in control of many?
    Greed is inherent and so is good?

    ...the only few that should be in control of many are the few sound arguments in control of the many flawed ones, and there is very seldom such a thing as a sound argument on tv or on the radio or even in many a book becuase nobody can or has enough time to think about them to respond, I seriously doubt anyone could process information that fast unless pre-processed and only reflexively considerd and responded to, there is never enough time for real debate and consideration of other's views in tv politics, it's all geared toward appeals to emotions because of design limitations in the medium of information exchange and the natural tendency for nobody to talk back to their tv...what good would that do to talk back to something that one can't change?

    I like greed,I agree it is probably inherent but not entirely genetically just the function of greed is genetic not it's application, I think everyone does like greed, It's a fun philosophy to seek out getting and accumulating whatever one can, but there is a fundamentally difference between one being greedy for knowledge or such and greedy for someone eles's possessions, the difference is that most people agree that greed is not right when it involves taking from others which is usually with the aid of lying, most people would rather be greedy of the wealth of things that do not involve taking from others, and since most people decide what is right and wrong(I hope) then I think those people who want to live where they are free to take from others should seriously consider questioning that fundamental belief or moving to another country that agrees with them.
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 17, 2003
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