Hundreds die in Israel raid on Gaza

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  • #1
Abdelrahman
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2008/12/200812279451509662.html" [Broken]

No Comment!!!
 
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  • #2
Evo
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In retaliation for unprovoked Hamas rocket attacks on Israel.

US urges Hamas to cease rocket attacks on Israel

The U.S. on Saturday blamed the militant group Hamas for breaking a cease-fire and attacking Israel, which retaliated with strikes of its own during what became the single bloodiest day of fighting in years.

The White House called for the cease-fire to be restored, yet there were few indications that the violence, which has left more than 200 people dead and nearly another 400 wounded, was waning. Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak warned that the operation in Gaza would widen if necessary.

It was "completely unacceptable" for Hamas, which controls Gaza, to launch attacks on Israel after a truce lasting several months, said Gordon Johndroe, a spokesman for the National Security Council.

"These people are nothing but thugs, so Israel is going to defend its people against terrorists like Hamas that indiscriminately kill their own people," Johndroe said . "They need to stop. We have said in the past that they have a choice to make. You can't have one foot in politics and one foot in terror."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081228/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_mideast [Broken]
 
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  • #3
berkeman
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That would seem to be the key point:
It was "completely unacceptable" for Hamas, which controls Gaza, to launch attacks on Israel after a truce lasting several months, said Gordon Johndroe, a spokesman for the National Security Council.
"Cease fire" is supposed to mean something.
 
  • #4
Abdelrahman
Hamas rockets killed 1 israeli
Israeli rockets killed 220 and COUNTING!!!

Some of the Israeli missiles struck in densely populated areas as children were leaving school, and women rushed into the streets frantically looking for their children.
 
  • #5
berkeman
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Hamas rockets killed 1 israeli
Israeli rockets killed 220 and COUNTING!!!
So you acknowledge there was a violation of the cease fire? Why would you decide to test the cease fire?
 
  • #6
Abdelrahman
That would seem to be the key point:


"Cease fire" is supposed to mean something.

I can't even begin to comprehend how this argument could be made now, it's the same as saying that the Jews in a holocaust camp killed a Nazi officer.
 
  • #7
Evo
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Because Hamas broke the truce. They have no one to blame but themselves in this. They know Israel is not going to sit idly by and be attacked, so they should not act surprised that Israel struck back.
 
  • #8
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So you acknowledge there was a violation of the cease fire? Why would you decide to test the cease fire?
To be fair to Hamas, they did announce an end to the cease fire, so it's not exactly a violation.

Of course, I'm sure that they were shocked...shocked...to discover that after announcing that they would go back to killing as many Israelis as they could and then resuming rocket attacks that Israel would retaliate.
 
  • #9
Abdelrahman
I don't know how you could take that angle when 200 (mostly civilians) were just slaughtered, this is by any means an unfair war, israel with it's (US Funded) war machine versus a couple of men with rockets.

Could someone please tell me the difference between what Israel is doing now and what Germany did to the jews in WWII.
 
  • #10
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This is clearly an unproportional response by the Isreal, that serves no practical purpose other than to invite the hearts and minds of every Palestinian citizen to take up arms and fight. And at the expense of 200 dead (mostly civilian), and US military aid. Genius!!!

But if you look at what US has done in Iraq and Afghanistan, the Israeli counter offensive pales in comparison.

I think it will take another Jesus, Gandhi, or Martin Luther King type of person to resist peacefully and start another movement over there. Otherwise this war will continue ad infinitum.
 
  • #11
Evo
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I don't know how you could take that angle when 200 (mostly civilians) were just slaughtered, this is by any means an unfair war, israel with it's (US Funded) war machine versus a couple of men with rockets.
The targets were not civilian, and the civilian casualties are obviously sad, but if you wish to engage in war, what do you expect?

Could someone please tell me the difference between what Israel is doing now and what Germany did to the jews in WWII.
Oh please, you will lose any argument that starts with such a ridiculous comparison.
 
  • #12
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I don't know how you could take that angle when 200 (mostly civilians) were just slaughtered, this is by any means an unfair war, israel with it's (US Funded) war machine versus a couple of men with rockets.

Could someone please tell me the difference between what Israel is doing now and what Germany did to the jews in WWII.
Could you tell me why a comparison between those two conflicts should be made?

But let's look at the alternative. Israel does not launch military strikes. Instead, Hamas fires a rocket or two, kills an Israeli or two (and an occasional Palestinian), and then what? Should Israel sit around looking at the sky, ducking when the next Qassam is lobbed at them? This is not a matter of some isolated attack. Hamas has made it clear that it would continue violence against its neighbor without provocation.

Hamas brought this to themselves and those around them. Fire rockets at one's neighbor for years, and call a truce, and fire again... What can you expect?
 
  • #13
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http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2008/12/200812279451509662.html" [Broken]

No Comment!!!
Did you really think that this would gain any sympathy in the world of war, where the nature of Islam has at last been comprehended in some visceral fashion?
 
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  • #14
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Hamas rockets killed 1 israeli
Israeli rockets killed 220 and COUNTING!!!
L.O.L so just because Hamas is incompetant, suddenly its O.K!

I mean, Hamas only tried to kill as many people as it could. They never actually suceeded though. How dare they attack us back!!!


Sorry Abdelrahman, you cant have your cake and eat it too.
 
  • #15
Hamas rockets killed 1 israeli
Israeli rockets killed 220 and COUNTING!!!
Were Israel to have fired first with minimal casualties with Hamas returning fire killing hundreds would you still object?
 
  • #16
Art
Were Israel to have fired first with minimal casualties with Hamas returning fire killing hundreds would you still object?
Just a couple of points. The 1 Israeli civilian was killed AFTER Israel launched it's attacks and Israel broke the ceasefire weeks ago first by not lifting the blockade as they had agreed to do under the ceasefire terms and then with targeted assassinations of Hamas officials. In fact for Israel the ceasefire was simply business as usual. But to take up your point. If Israel had killed 1 Palestinian civilan and Hamas responded by killing 271 Israelis I wonder how many on here would be falling over themselves to justify such a response from Palestinians?

This has absolutely nothing to do with ceasefire violations and everything to do with the forthcoming elections in Israel with the candidates each trying to outdo each other on how tough they are.

Israel is a terrorist state whose leaders should be tried for war crimes and crimes against humanity. Gaza is a prison camp whose inhabitants are being slowly starved to death through Israel's blockade and yet when the victims protest or rebel they are vilified. This seems to turn logic on it's head. I find it amazing that so many on here are happy to try and justify mass murder. Many Nazis were executed after WW2 for just such actions.

My opinion of Israel's culpability is echoed by the UN. This from Dec 10th
UN official slams Israel 'crimes'

The UN special rapporteur on human rights in the Palestinian territories has said Israel's policies there amount to a crime against humanity.
snip
He said the International Criminal Court should also investigate whether the Israeli civilian leaders and military commanders for the Gaza siege should be indicted and prosecuted for violations of international criminal law.

The last time there had been "such a flurry of denunciations by normally cautious UN officials" it was during the heyday of the apartheid government in South Africa, Mr Falk said.

"And still Israel maintains its Gaza siege in its full fury, allowing only barely enough food and fuel to enter to stave off mass famine and disease," Mr Falk said.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7774988.stm
 
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  • #17
Art
The targets were not civilian, and the civilian casualties are obviously sad, but if you wish to engage in war, what do you expect?
The targets were very definitely civilian. They went after the police force including dozens killed at a graduating ceremony and the chief of police.
 
  • #18
tchitt
I don't understand this "war"... why are they just lobbing explosives back and forth at each other? It would seem to me that someone should just invade and occupy someone else and be done with it. Of course Hamas would lose :tongue: but something's gotta give. This is idiotic.

Do both sides just lack the stones or what?

I don't know a lot about this but it seems like enough is enough. Is Hamas not a terrorist organization? Why haven't they been crushed yet?
 
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  • #19
tiny-tim
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holocaust

I can't even begin to comprehend how this argument could be made now, it's the same as saying that the Jews in a holocaust camp killed a Nazi officer.
Hi Abdelrahman! :smile:

You obviously don't understand what a holocaust camp was.

There were two types … death camps and "ordinary" camps.

In the death camps, such as Auschwitz II and Sobibor, a thousand or so Jews (or occasionally Gypsies) would arrive by train, hundreds of miles from their homes, and would within an hour or so be taken into "shower-rooms" where they would be killed by gas.

In the "ordinary" camps, Jews and others would be gradually worked to death.

Look it up on the internet, or in books … you'll see that there's no comparison between the holocaust and Gaza at all. :smile:
Could someone please tell me the difference between what Israel is doing now and what Germany did to the jews in WWII.
Germany's aim was to exterminate the Jews (and the inter-marrying tribes of Gypsies).

Israel's aim is to live at peace with its Arab neighbours. :smile:
I don't know how you could take that angle when 200 (mostly civilians) were just slaughtered, this is by any means an unfair war, israel with it's (US Funded) war machine versus a couple of men with rockets.
War isn't supposed to be fair … it isn't a sport, like boxing, where you don't fight someone who's much smaller than you.

In war, if you have overwhelming force, then you're perfectly entitled to start using it, and the other side, if it's really interested in peace, will stop.

War is an unfortunate means of protecting your legal rights … in this case, Israelis' right to live.

Hamas has for many months been killing as many Israeli civilians as it can … under international law, that is undoubtedly an act of war.

Israel, under international law, is entitled to retaliate, first by economic sanctions, and then militarily.

Israel's reluctance is clear from the long time that it has waited before military retaliation.
 
  • #20
Art


Hamas has for many months been killing as many Israeli civilians as it can … under international law, that is undoubtedly an act of war.
Hamas had killed a grand total of exactly zero Israelis in the months preceding this attack whilst Israel has killed dozens of Palestinians in the same time frame. But eh, Palestinians are all terrorists so that's okay right? :rolleyes:

Meanwhile the war warmongering, evil witch, Tzipi Livni, who recently suggested all Arabs living in Israel should be removed is really a peace loving humanitarian I suppose.
"Among other things I will also be able to approach the Palestinian residents of Israel... and tell them: 'Your national aspirations lie elsewhere.'"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7779087.stm Then again she is by no means the only leading politician in Israel to promote a little ethnic cleansing but it seems such policies are only illegal if pursued by non-zionists.
 
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  • #21
mjsd
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Oh mine.... I have been away from this forum for 6 months due to study commitments... but it seems that nothing has changed... we are still arguing whether Israel/Palestine's actions are legit or not.

It amazes, as well as saddens me that both sides are still playing the same only game which perpetuate the situation despite that it is obviously unworkable.

Recently, we had an exchange student from Israel (by the way, he is not Jewish, he is originally from Russia but studied physics in Israel) joining our department. The first thing I asked him was on the topic of "the threat of rocket attacks" and whether "he fears everyday about the possibility of an attack". I must say that I was surprised to hear his response which went somehting like:
"... it is all a bit of an exaggeration... we, in the capital city, don't get any rockets at all.. it is only the small regions of the border towns are affected...", he then added,
"... seriously, I didn't feel threaten at all.. and most ppl (at least the ppl I knew).. simply go by their daily business without any concerns.... the TV stations do make a big fuss about the rockets though..."

No doubt, whether it is just border towns or the entire map of Israel is threaten by rockets, it should not in any way change our perspective of right and wrong.... whether it is just 1 or 229 civilians killed, it is equally bad. However, time and again the impression I've got from the media is that Israel is responding in the current way because "they have no other choices available, and that their entire population cannot live a normal life"

seriously? have we, the western ppl, run of new ideas already? Well, I guess the "terrorists" have and can only resort to barbaric means of retaliation, but surely, we can do better than just perpetuating the situation?
 
  • #22
tiny-tim
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Hamas had killed a grand total of exactly zero Israelis in the months preceding this attack whilst Israel has killed dozens of Palestinians in the same time frame.
I just googled "sderot + ceasefire", and came up with http://www.jewlicious.com/2008/12/worst-rocket-attack-on-sderot-since-ceasefire/"
A Palestinian rocket exploded right outside a Sderot supermarket on Wednesday evening, December 17, in one of the worst Qassam attacks on Sderot since the ceasefire began. Rocket shrapnel lightly wounded three people, with one man suffering a light head wound, according to a MADA spokesperson on scene.

Since the ceasefire began on June 21, over 400 Qassam rockets have been fired at Sderot and the western Negev, making the number of rockets fired at Israel during this ceasefire significantly more than the number fired in the previous Hamas-Israel ceasefire in 2007. To date, over 10,000 Palestinian rockets have been fired at southern Israel since 2001.
As I said, Hamas has for many months been killing as many Israeli civilians as it can … under international law, that is undoubtedly an act of war.

The low number of deaths (as opposed to "mere" injuries) is not for Hamas' want of trying, and does not make it any less an act of war.
Art said:
Meanwhile the war warmongering, evil witch, Tzipi Livni, who recently suggested all Arabs living in Israel should be removed is really a peace loving humanitarian I suppose. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7779087.stm
erm :redface: … "removed"? … the actual quote from Livni in that report is:
"There is no question of carrying out a transfer or forcing them [Israeli Arabs] to leave," she told public radio.
"I am willing to give up a part of the country over which I believe we have rights so that Israel will remain a Jewish and democratic state in which citizens have equal rights, whatever their religion," she added.
To me, that looks like exchanging land for peace. :smile:
 
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  • #23
Art
I just googled "sderot + ceasefire", and came up with http://www.jewlicious.com/2008/12/worst-rocket-attack-on-sderot-since-ceasefire/"


As I said, Hamas has for many months been killing as many Israeli civilians as it can … under international law, that is undoubtedly an act of war. The low number of deaths (as opposed to "mere" injuries) is not for Hamas' want of trying, and does not make it any less an act of war.
The low number of deaths you keep referring to is, as I said previously, precisely ZERO! Whereas the Israelis have been far more successful in their attempts to kill Palestinians with dozens of 'successes' prior to Saturdays murderous assault.




erm :redface: … "removed"? … the actual quote from Livni in that report is:


To me, that looks like exchanging land for peace. :smile:
I suggest you have another look then. She was referring to the 1 million Arabs living in the state of Israel, unless you are suggesting she intends handing over lumps of Israel to them. Somewhat unlikely don't you think :rolleyes: Her qualifying remarks came AFTER there was an international outcry about her first statement.

In remarks to school children broadcast on Israeli radio, Ms Livni's said her solution for maintaining a Jewish and democratic state of Israel was "to have two distinct national entities".

"Among other things I will also be able to approach the Palestinian residents of Israel... and tell them: 'Your national aspirations lie elsewhere.'"

Arab MP Ahmed Tibi demanded that Ms Livni be absolutely open about what she meant, as befits a candidate for Israel's prime ministership.

"She must decide whether she means to leave 1m Arabs without political rights or a national identity, or whether she really intends to transfer 1m Arab citizens to the Palestinian state that will be established," he told Israeli army radio.
Seems pretty unambiguous to me.
 
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  • #24
russ_watters
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Hamas rockets killed 1 israeli
Israeli rockets killed 220 and COUNTING!!!
So Hamas is not very good at killing Jews. We know. But they really should know by now that if you mess with the bull too long, eventually you'll get the horns. Hamas had been poking that hornets nest with a stick for weeks before it swarmed them.
 
  • #25
russ_watters
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To be fair to Hamas, they did announce an end to the cease fire, so it's not exactly a violation.
Perhaps - but either way, if it is a violation of the cease fire or just a unilateral resumption of hostilities by Hamas after it ended, it's still on Hamas.
 

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