US Hurricane Crisis: American People's View

[Art]

Firefighters Stuck in Atlanta for Days Awaiting Orders
'FEMA Hired the Best of the Best Firefighters ... and Gave Them Secretary Jobs'
By GREG BLUESTEIN, AP

I've given up bothering to post examples of incompetence. Some of the people here are so stuck in denial nothing will shift them.

I believe the saying is "There are none so blind as those that will not see"

 

[TRCSF]

Firefighters Stuck in Atlanta for Days Awaiting Orders
'FEMA Hired the Best of the Best Firefighters ... and Gave Them Secretary Jobs'
By GREG BLUESTEIN, AP

Yeah, they also flew in 50 Utah firefighters... to be used as a backdrop for Bush's photo-op in Biloxi.

There are also reports that Bush's photo-ops delayed relief elsewhere.

 

[russ_watters]

So you're saying it takes two and a half days to deliver fresh water to New Orleans.

OK.

Uh, no I didn't, I asked questions about someone else's statement. What are you reading?

And this is why I asked:

From all of those people on the news who were screaming "we need water, we need food. Remember, the ones on the overpass? That was wednesday. Those in the Super dome were complaining of the same thing.

That's a supposition based on anecdotal evidence. You don't have any real facts there on what supplies came in and when they came in, do you? That is precisely the type of thing we should be trying to avoid.

Russ: Did you notice that it was actually a failure of the two foot thick concrete flood walls along two channels that caused the flooding. Why didn't they try to block the entrances to the channels?

You mean prior to the hurricane? I guess since all the levees and locks and canals are made to roughly the same standard, there wasn't anyone weak-point known prior to the hurricane.

 

[TRCSF]

Uh, no I didn't, I asked questions about someone else's statement. What are you reading?

And this is why I asked: That's a supposition based on anecdotal evidence. You don't have any real facts there on what supplies came in and when they came in, do you? That is precisely the type of thing we should be trying to avoid. You mean prior to the hurricane? I guess since all the levees and locks and canals are made to roughly the same standard, there wasn't anyone weak-point known prior to the hurricane.

It's hard to tell what I'm reading. It doesn't make much sense.

It took two to three days for food and water to get to New Orleans. It's been confirmed by thousands of eyewitnesses and broadcast by the media all over the world.

One has to be really stupid to deny it.

 

[TRCSF]

I've given up bothering to post examples of incompetence. Some of the people here are so stuck in denial nothing will shift them.

I believe the saying is "There are none so blind as those that will not see"

Don't give up so easy. Yeah, they're stuck in denial. Yeah, they don't care about the millions of victims, probably because they're mostly poor and black.

But at least we can get the truth out there.

 

[TRCSF]

Good to see this sentence: "President Bush and Congress on Tuesday pledged separate investigations into the federal response to Katrina."

That's good to read. Unfortunately Tom Delay muttered something about it being Mayor Nagin's fault, then canceled congressional hearings on the matter.

 

[russ_watters]

It's hard to tell what I'm reading. It doesn't make much sense.

It took two to three days for food and water to get to New Orleans. It's been confirmed by thousands of eyewitnesses and broadcast by the media all over the world.

One has to be really stupid to deny it.

Have a look at the facts you have and lay out the logical basis for your conclusion. It'll make more sense then. Your conclusion does not follow from your facts because your facts are incomplete and your conclusion is directly contradicted by other facts.

What you have is a set of facts that seem to support one conclusion, not a set of facts that do directly support that conclusion and another set of facts that you are ignoring that directly contradict your conclusion. You're making an unwarranted logical leap. That, again, is the problem with anecdotal evidence.

Now then, I still would like to address this:

So you're saying it takes two and a half days to deliver fresh water to New Orleans.

Quote for me where I said that or retract it and apologize. I will not have you putting words in my mouth that I did not say.

 

[TRCSF]

Have a look at the facts you have and lay out the logical basis for your conclusion. It'll make more sense then. Your conclusion does not follow from your facts because your facts are incomplete and your conclusion is directly contradicted by other facts.

What you have is a set of facts that seem to support one conclusion, not a set of facts that do directly support that conclusion and another set of facts that you are ignoring that directly contradict your conclusion. You're making an unwarranted logical leap. That, again, is the problem with anecdotal evidence.

Now then, I still would like to address this: Quote for me where I said that or retract it and apologize. I will not have you putting words in my mouth that I did not say.

Russ. You're a week behind.

The lack of water and food in NOLA was witnessed by hundreds of thousands and reported live on air to millions of American households. The fact that anybody would deny it is utterly ridiculous. I'm getting contact embarassment.

Hearing you talk about facts has become like arguing a creationist.

You've said that FEMA was prepositioned. Essentially that they did their job. Now, it took three days after the storm for FEMA to get food and water to NOLA. I know you're denying it. I know you hate it. But facts is facts. So, the logically conclusion is that it takes two to three days to drive to NOLA. That's some conclusion. RCMP from Vancouver got there faster than FEMA did.

No, Russ. If you want to save face, it's time to admit the facts.

Water and food didn't get there in time.

People didn't just die because of the hurricane. They died because of a lack of response.

FEMA screwed up.

Bush screwed up.

 

[Informal Logic]

As posted before, the difficulty in obtaining facts at this time is due in large part to poor news reporting. Here is an article on that very topic:

News You Can Lose
What I hate about cable TV journalism.
By Jack Shafer
Posted Sunday, Sept. 4, 2005

http://slate.msn.com/id/2125683/?GT1=6900

In the meantime, it is not the end of the world, and nit picky debate is a waste of BTUs.

 

[TRCSF]

In the meantime, it is not the end of the world, and nit picky debate is a waste of BTUs.

No, it's not the end of the world.

But it is the largest single displacement of Americans since the Civil War.

It's worse than the 1906 San Fran earthquake, worse than the Great Chicago Fire, worse than the Dust Bowl, and way worse than 9-11.

 

[TRCSF]

As posted before, the difficulty in obtaining facts at this time is due in large part to poor news reporting. Here is an article on that very topic:

News You Can Lose
What I hate about cable TV journalism.
By Jack Shafer
Posted Sunday, Sept. 4, 2005

http://slate.msn.com/id/2125683/?GT1=6900

QUOTE]

Considering the focus of media on that missing Aruba girl for the last three months, I've been fairly surprised that they're doing a mostly professional job in NOLA.

One can't hold the media accountable for not being aware of the most obvious facts.

 

[Astronuc]

That's a good article!

… hate it when the news networks pair music with montages of newsworthy footage.

… hate the use of undated footage, especially when it's two or three days old

… hate the conspicuous lack of maps illustrating where the camera and reporters are . . .

… hate the absence of context and continuity . . .

Yep

 

[Informal Logic]

No, it's not the end of the world.

But it is the largest single displacement of Americans since the Civil War.

It's worse than the 1906 San Fran earthquake, worse than the Great Chicago Fire, worse than the Dust Bowl, and way worse than 9-11.

It is not my intention to minimize the seriousness of this disaster. I only mean it is not the end of the world if we don't have all the facts at this time, so throwing annal fits are a waste of BTUs.

The Aruba story is another good example of crappy journalism. Still, if the reports of Katrina were better done there wouldn't be so much confusion about the timeline, agency responsibilities, etc.

 

[Art]

Compassionate conservatism - This is getting a lot of negative attention in the UK

MA BUSH IN EVACUEES ROW

Barbara Bush had come under fire for saying some of the Hurricane Katrina evacuees are better off now than before the storm.

Her remarks came as President George Bush - her son - faced growing criticism over his response to the crisis.

Mrs Bush made her comments after touring the Astrodome complex in Houston, where thousands of survivors are being cared for.

She told a radio interviewer that many "were undeprivileged anyway" and were in no hurry to leave.

"What I'm hearing, which is sort of scary, is they all want to stay in," Mrs Bush said.

"Everyone is so overwhelmed by the hospitality.

"And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway, so this is working very well for them."

Mrs Bush and former president George Bush were visiting the astrodome to help boost morale and raise money for the rebuilding effort.

White House officials have declined to comment on her remarks.

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13431861,00.html

These are some of the people Ma Bush believes are now better off -

EFFORTS TO REUNITE KIDS

Pictures of hundreds of children who are searching for their parents after Hurricane Katrina have been posted on a website in the United States.

The site lists more than 600 youngsters and was set up by the National Centre for Missing and Exploited Children.

Ernie Allen, NCMEC president, said staff were touring shelters in Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana and Texas, using digital cameras to take photographs of those separated from their families.

One picture is of toddler Kiarra Roberts. All that is known of her is that she was found on September 5.

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13432053,00.html

 

[SOS2008]

Here is a site that has a timeline, though I'm not familiar with it, the information appears legitimate, and is filled with links to reliable sources:

Katrina Timeline: Why Bush is to blame for disaster
http://www.ledgeofliberty.com/2005/09/katrina_timelin.html

Edit: Here's another one: http://www.bushwatch.net/disaster.htm

 

[BobG]

A little more on why Louisiana National Guard's plan to rely on neighboring states to overcome their own personnel and equipment shortage didn't pan out.

From http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Sep2005/20050908_2648.html:

Currently the Mississippi National Guard has more than 3,200 soldiers deployed to Iraq and more than 300 in Afghanistan. Another 60 are in and around Kuwait. And other state units are preparing to depart for duty in the U.S. Central Command theater of operations. Seventeen Mississippi National Guard soldiers have been killed in the war on terror.

Despite the force commitments from the global war on terror, Powell said, the state has more than ample personnel to cover the disaster operations. National Guard Bureau officials said Mississippi had 60 percent of its Guard force available for storm response. Guard Bureau reports indicate that 14,600 Guard personnel are in Mississippi participating in relief operations.

Alabama only has 1200 guard troops in Iraq, but that's because they can't recruit enough to fill out their allotted number. Even if all their troops were in the US, they would only be 78% manned.

From the Washington Post:

Recruiting and retention problems are worsening the strain on Guard forces in hurricane-ravaged states. Alabama's Army National Guard has a strength of 11,000 troops -- or 78 percent of the authorized number. "We're just losing too many out the back door," Arnold said.

I can understand some frustration from state and local officials. If you're reducing the ability of your own folks to respond to state emergencies because they're supporting the federal government, you'd hope the federal government would respond in kind with quick help to fill the gap. There's a mutual support role played by both the state and federal government, but only one side is paying on time.

 

[SOS2008]

A little more on why Louisiana National Guard's plan to rely on neighboring states to overcome their own personnel and equipment shortage didn't pan out.

From http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Sep2005/20050908_2648.html:

Alabama only has 1200 guard troops in Iraq, but that's because they can't recruit enough to fill out their allotted number. Even if all their troops were in the US, they would only be 78% manned.

From the Washington Post:

I can understand some frustration from state and local officials. If you're reducing the ability of your own folks to respond to state emergencies because they're supporting the federal government, you'd hope the federal government would respond in kind with quick help to fill the gap. There's a mutual support role played by both the state and federal government, but only one side is paying on time.

So basically Americans have been left with inadequate defense of the homeland...because we are defending America in Iraq.

 

[faust9]

FROM CNN: http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/09/09/katrina.washington/index.html

This would be much more funny if the subject matter were not so dire.

Landrieu blasts federal response

On Capitol Hill Thursday, Louisiana's senior senator, Mary Landrieu, a Democrat, blasted the federal response to Hurricane Katrina, calling it "incompetent and insulting" to the people of her state.

"The record for rebuilding will be staggering, but it will pale in comparison to the staggering incompetence of this national government," Landrieu said in a speech on the Senate floor.

She also said it was unfair to fault local and state officials for what many have described as an inadequate response to the storm.

She also faulted Bush for failing to recognize the severity of the situation when the levees broke, noting that public service announcements featuring the Mr. Bill clay animation character have been warning about such a scenario for two years.

"We know the president said 'I don't think anyone anticipated the break of the levee.' Everybody anticipated the break of the levee, Mr. President," she said. "How can it be that Mr. Bill was better informed than Mr. Bush?"

 

[Astronuc]

Commenting on the facilities that have been set up for the evacuees -- cots crammed side-by-side in a huge stadium where the lights never go out and the sound of sobbing children never completely ceases -- former First Lady Barbara Bush concluded that the poor people of New Orleans had lucked out.

"Everyone is so overwhelmed by the hospitality. And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway, so this, this is working very well for them," Mrs. Bush told American Public Media's "Marketplace" program, before returning to her multi-million dollar Houston home.

On the tape of the interview, Mrs. Bush chuckles audibly as she observes just how great things are going for families that are separated from loved ones, people who have been forced to abandon their homes and the only community where they have ever lived, and parents who are explaining to children that their pets, their toys and in some cases their friends may be lost forever. Perhaps the former first lady was amusing herself with the notion that evacuees without bread could eat cake.

At the very least, she was expressing a measure of empathy commensurate with that evidenced by her son during his fly-ins for disaster-zone photo opportunities.

On Friday, when even Republican lawmakers were giving the federal government an "F" for its response to the crisis, President Bush heaped praise on embattled Federal Emergency Management Agency chief Michael Brown. As thousands of victims of the hurricane continued to plead for food, water, shelter, medical care and a way out of the nightmare to which federal neglect had consigned them, Brown cheerily announced that "people are getting the help they need."

Barbara Bush's son put his arm around the addled FEMA functionary and declared, "Brownie, you're doing a heck of a job."

from The Nation ( http://www.thenation.com/blogs/thebeat?bid=1&pid=20080 )

 

[faust9]

from The Nation ( http://www.thenation.com/blogs/thebeat?bid=1&pid=20080 )

Good'ol Babs! Nothing like a lifetime of wealth and http://www.whitehouse.gov/history/firstladies/bb41.html to really bring out that compassion.

 

[Zlex]

Russ. You're a week behind.

The lack of water and food in NOLA was witnessed by hundreds of thousands and reported live on air to millions of American households. The fact that anybody would deny it is utterly ridiculous. I'm getting contact embarassment.

Hearing you talk about facts has become like arguing a creationist.

You've said that FEMA was prepositioned. Essentially that they did their job. Now, it took three days after the storm for FEMA to get food and water to NOLA. I know you're denying it. I know you hate it. But facts is facts. So, the logically conclusion is that it takes two to three days to drive to NOLA. That's some conclusion. RCMP from Vancouver got there faster than FEMA did.

No, Russ. If you want to save face, it's time to admit the facts.

Water and food didn't get there in time.

People didn't just die because of the hurricane. They died because of a lack of response.

FEMA screwed up.

Bush screwed up.

Ah yes, blame Bush.

Not the entire:

City gov't.
Parish/County gov't.
State gov't.
Federal gov't.

Not just a triple tier of 'levees,' but a quadruple tier of levees.

The wet dirt in and around N.O. is more than thrice overpaved with gov't.

Not just bureaucracies, but...overlapping bureaucracies, because...that is what they are, that is how they do what we pay them to do.

Yet, just because we need them, and just because we have them, and just because we pay top dollar for them, does not mean they are infinitely capable, well oiled machines, incapable of being 'overwhelmed.'

'Machines,' yes. Like, let's start with the first tier, N.O. City gov't. Snicker, snicker, the 'Big Easy,' corruptly run for ...ever. Too late now, quickly overwhelmed, so the ball trickled up the layered gov't ladder. Parish/County gov't? I think that ball trickled quickly up to the State, only...not too quickly. Regional disaster? Uh-oh, we're going to have to organize cooperative efforts amoung States...Counties/Parishs...and municipalities over 90,000 square miles. Using what? Using a regional communication and transportation infrastructure system that just got wiped out. So, same thing...slowly, as bureacracies reluctantly 'stand down', admit defeat in the face of overwhelming demands, and turn over the ball/blame to the next about to be overwhelmed buraeucracy. Exactly like, a sudden rush of water from the failure of one levee breeching the next, and then breeching the next. Too much, too soon, too late, too bad.

If we're learning anything, it's that our bureacracies are mostly things that function 'well' when the Sun is Shining and all is well. When it is crunch time, the only expedient, throw the book out, emergency on the spot response is going to be up to individual heroic folks just doing what they can. Eventually, lumbering along, will come massive resources and tons of money; such as, $21B in less than a month. How many years did the "Big Dig" take? And we're going to do what in a month? With any luck, some fraction of that massively spent $21B actually makes its way to the folks in need.

In a nation that demands so little of itself, in terms of bare competence, just what the Hell do we expect from those we elect to run our expensive little Circus for us?

Well, gee, where is the emergency bullet-proof backup communication and transportation system, the one capable of not only instantly moving piles of food and water and medicine to go for 1 million people from points A-Z to points (A-Z)^10, but for organizing same? Where are all those gaspowered wireless non-electric PCs, so that folks could rely on 'AOL' and the 'unbreakable In-ter-net' to organize this massive communications effort?

o·ver·whelm ( P ) Pronunciation Key (vr-hwlm, -wlm)
tr.v. o·ver·whelmed, o·ver·whelm·ing, o·ver·whelms
To surge over and submerge; engulf: waves overwhelming the rocky shoreline.

To defeat completely and decisively: Our team overwhelmed the visitors by 40 points.
To affect deeply in mind or emotion: Despair overwhelmed me.
To present with an excessive amount: They overwhelmed us with expensive gifts.
To turn over; upset: The small craft was overwhelmed by the enormous waves.

Not just a region, but our systems were just overwhelmed. None of us have the intellectual capacity to grasp the nature of the devastation that was just unleashed on that region in the period of a single day, nor anything comparable for which we use for calibration of what is a 'reasonable' response.

All we know is, we demand service from our gov'ts and the bureaucrats who run them--if from nobody else in the country--and no matter what.

In this sequence of events, those silly assed expectations with their faulty foundations were clearly overwhelmed.

We struggle for words to describe the victims of this event. They are more than just 'refugees,' they are more like 'Displaced Persons' or, to distinguich them from victims of war, 'Disaster Displaced Persons. (DDPs)'

What we have now is, not only DDPs, but DDPPs-- Disaster Displaced Poor People. We were all happy when the Poor Were In Place in a functioning New Orleans. Barely able to care for themselves when they were 'poor in place,' they are now en masse 'poor out of place.' (Don't go there.)

And, not just temporarily, but in all likelihood, permenantly.

As we start to get hints on the horizon that we may see a day beyond 'struggle for mere survival' in NO, let's face it, will the CNN cameras really be satisfied to chronicle the restoration of many of these folks to the same state they were in before Katrina? I don't think so. Even targeting that on a time frame that would please us all would overwhelm our systems.

And yet, ironically, even if it does not happen at the speed with which we might all hope, for some of the lucky survivors, some aspects of this dispruptive cataclysm will result in exactly that; a better life.

Not because their new life is particularly wonderful, but because their previous life as poor in place in N.O. as life long dependents of the local regime was little more than 'long term bearable.'

And, in all likelihood, those will not be among the stories told by entities like CNN, because they are off script.


We'll do our best; that's all anybody can do. But both individually, as well as communally, that is not the same as perfect. Never was, never will be.

 

[TRCSF]

Ah yes, blame Bush.

Not the entire:

City gov't.
Parish/County gov't.
State gov't.
Federal gov't.

Not just a triple tier of 'levees,' but a quadruple tier of levees.

The wet dirt in and around N.O. is more than thrice overpaved with gov't.

Not just bureaucracies, but...overlapping bureaucracies, because...that is what they are, that is how they do what we pay them to do.

Yet, just because we need them, and just because we have them, and just because we pay top dollar for them, does not mean they are infinitely capable, well oiled machines, incapable of being 'overwhelmed.'

'Machines,' yes. Like, let's start with the first tier, N.O. City gov't. Snicker, snicker, the 'Big Easy,' corruptly run for ...ever. Too late now, quickly overwhelmed, so the ball trickled up the layered gov't ladder. Parish/County gov't? I think that ball trickled quickly up to the State, only...not too quickly. Regional disaster? Uh-oh, we're going to have to organize cooperative efforts amoung States...Counties/Parishs...and municipalities over 90,000 square miles. Using what? Using a regional communication and transportation infrastructure system that just got wiped out. So, same thing...slowly, as bureacracies reluctantly 'stand down', admit defeat in the face of overwhelming demands, and turn over the ball/blame to the next about to be overwhelmed buraeucracy. Exactly like, a sudden rush of water from the failure of one levee breeching the next, and then breeching the next. Too much, too soon, too late, too bad.

If we're learning anything, it's that our bureacracies are mostly things that function 'well' when the Sun is Shining and all is well. When it is crunch time, the only expedient, throw the book out, emergency on the spot response is going to be up to individual heroic folks just doing what they can. Eventually, lumbering along, will come massive resources and tons of money; such as, $21B in less than a month. How many years did the "Big Dig" take? And we're going to do what in a month? With any luck, some fraction of that massively spent $21B actually makes its way to the folks in need.

In a nation that demands so little of itself, in terms of bare competence, just what the Hell do we expect from those we elect to run our expensive little Circus for us?

Well, gee, where is the emergency bullet-proof backup communication and transportation system, the one capable of not only instantly moving piles of food and water and medicine to go for 1 million people from points A-Z to points (A-Z)^10, but for organizing same? Where are all those gaspowered wireless non-electric PCs, so that folks could rely on 'AOL' and the 'unbreakable In-ter-net' to organize this massive communications effort?

o·ver·whelm ( P ) Pronunciation Key (vr-hwlm, -wlm)
tr.v. o·ver·whelmed, o·ver·whelm·ing, o·ver·whelms
To surge over and submerge; engulf: waves overwhelming the rocky shoreline.

To defeat completely and decisively: Our team overwhelmed the visitors by 40 points.
To affect deeply in mind or emotion: Despair overwhelmed me.
To present with an excessive amount: They overwhelmed us with expensive gifts.
To turn over; upset: The small craft was overwhelmed by the enormous waves.

Not just a region, but our systems were just overwhelmed. None of us have the intellectual capacity to grasp the nature of the devastation that was just unleashed on that region in the period of a single day, nor anything comparable for which we use for calibration of what is a 'reasonable' response.

All we know is, we demand service from our gov'ts and the bureaucrats who run them--if from nobody else in the country--and no matter what.

In this sequence of events, those silly assed expectations with their faulty foundations were clearly overwhelmed.

We struggle for words to describe the victims of this event. They are more than just 'refugees,' they are more like 'Displaced Persons' or, to distinguich them from victims of war, 'Disaster Displaced Persons. (DDPs)'

What we have now is, not only DDPs, but DDPPs-- Disaster Displaced Poor People. We were all happy when the Poor Were In Place in a functioning New Orleans. Barely able to care for themselves when they were 'poor in place,' they are now en masse 'poor out of place.' (Don't go there.)

And, not just temporarily, but in all likelihood, permenantly.

As we start to get hints on the horizon that we may see a day beyond 'struggle for mere survival' in NO, let's face it, will the CNN cameras really be satisfied to chronicle the restoration of many of these folks to the same state they were in before Katrina? I don't think so. Even targeting that on a time frame that would please us all would overwhelm our systems.

And yet, ironically, even if it does not happen at the speed with which we might all hope, for some of the lucky survivors, some aspects of this dispruptive cataclysm will result in exactly that; a better life.

Not because their new life is particularly wonderful, but because their previous life as poor in place in N.O. as life long dependents of the local regime was little more than 'long term bearable.'

And, in all likelihood, those will not be among the stories told by entities like CNN, because they are off script.


We'll do our best; that's all anybody can do. But both individually, as well as communally, that is not the same as perfect. Never was, never will be.

I find it odd that you call Mayor Nagin corrupt and ignore Bush. Bush is the guy who appointed his campaign manager and his former college roommate to FEMA, if that's not corrupt, I don't know what is.

It wasn't Nagin or Blanco that cut millions of dollars to the Army Corp of Engineers and FEMA, or sent thousands of Louisiana National Guard over to Iraq. It wasn't Nagin and Blanco who sat on their hands for three days after the hurricane hit.

I know the Republican spin machine is pointing straight at Nagin and Blanco, but I've yet to see one valid criticism of the way they've handled things.

And I see you're repeating the racist, classist arguments from Barbara Bush about how these people are going to be better off now.

These people have lost their homes, their jobs, their money, their pets, their families, their friends.

To say they're better off now is beyond the pale.

 

[SOS2008]

Blame is "weighted" in my mind, with a larger percent being directed at Bush, if for no other reason than lack of resources due to the invasion of Iraq and cuts in programs (to compensate for tax breaks and now the "death" tax? that benefit the wealthy the most). This could have happened anywhere, and I believe lack of resources and the incompetencies of FEMA still would have been seen.

 

[Zlex]

I find it odd that you call Mayor Nagin corrupt and ignore Bush. Bush is the guy who appointed his campaign manager and his former college roommate to FEMA, if that's not corrupt, I don't know what is.

It wasn't Nagin or Blanco that cut millions of dollars to the Army Corp of Engineers and FEMA, or sent thousands of Louisiana National Guard over to Iraq. It wasn't Nagin and Blanco who sat on their hands for three days after the hurricane hit.

I know the Republican spin machine is pointing straight at Nagin and Blanco, but I've yet to see one valid criticism of the way they've handled things.

And I see you're repeating the racist, classist arguments from Barbara Bush about how these people are going to be better off now.

These people have lost their homes, their jobs, their money, their pets, their families, their friends.

To say they're better off now is beyond the pale.

Guilty as charged; the feds are guilty of being a massive, bloated, non-agile bureacracy, filled with both heroes and slugs, saints and sinners, at exactly the same time. They are constrained by being made up of, on average, average human beings.

Ditto State, local, and city government.

But I'll bite; how do, on average, average Americans vote for and people 4 overlapping layers of government with all those layers of middle managers and bureaucrats, all scared to death to go outside the book, to break the chain of command, to stick out their neck, without employing anything other than, on average, average Americans?

And..as the details of this latest example of bureacratic sluggishness unfurl, when do you think we'll all finally admit the shame of seeing just how pathetic, on average, bureacracies peopled with average Americans are?

Remember, we all need jobs; even the less than Average American. So...how do we do this?

Bush, too, the whole bloated flabby phalynx of gov'ts.

Well, forget it; because this is how we do it, and this is what we get, becasue we can't even agree on whether Bush's dissapointment was in demanding more or demanding less of that which doesn't work.

The word 'overwhelmed' or 'overwhelming' gets used a lot in the context of this event, as reported by those on the ground.

I think sometimes when folks use that word, that think that it should mean 'nearly overwhelmed' or 'nearly overwhelming.'

But, when an event goes beyond 'nearly' and is actually 'overwhelming,' the consequences are that our systems get 'overwhelmed.' Is that stating the obvious, because that is my forte, you know?

The consequences of 'overwhelmed,' if words have meaning, are what we are seeing; clearly, many of our systems--it would be overwhelming to even list them, much less, fix them, much less, make each of them un-overwhelmable in advance--have been overwhelmed.

Our bureacracies cannot respond as fast as is needed to this overwhelming event; they are ovwerwhelmed. Safety addled people who are 24/7/365 fearful of making choices/mistakes are not all going to suddenly become laser beam focused superhuman hero warriors, efficiently cutting corners, taking risks, and throwing out the book that is too long to read in such an emergency anyway, and just magically organize into an efficient bee colony and 'get it done.'

What we are seeing is the limits of, on average, human cooperation.

So, it's reasonable only to ask, 'How can this be done 'better, faster, smarter?'

Do we need better raw materials, because we're limited by human beings as they are?

Especially, human beings in and around the hardly a little secret 'Big Easy,' where the local political machine is notoriously corrupt beyond the pale, and has been forever. Is that now just easily dismissable as being irrelevant? We tolerated that fact...forever. That has consequences.

So, was there some paternalistic State gov't that was supposed to make that somehow all allright? Or even, a paternalistic federal gov't? How, exactly, do the people of Vermont reach all the way into New Orleans to straghten their ass out, either now, after being 'overwhelmed,' or before the fact, to make the unfathmomable impervious to being overwhelmed?

We'll all be digging out those dusty academic papers now, the ones that have existed for decades describing this catastrophe. Or at least, referring to those two hour NOVA or DISCOVERY CHANNEL pieces, you know, the ones complete with CG animations of the event we are witnessing that maybe .0004% of the population would ever take time out from their busy schedules and deem to sit through, much less, take seriously, and wondering, 'Gee, why weren't the folks living in the 'Big Easy' up in arms for decades, demanding triple tiered redundant levees, and ponying up to pay for them, or at least, in the tradition of Boston's Big Dig, begging their pols to beg Congress and the rest of the also not paying attention nation to pay for them?

For a time, the situation will be 'overwheming.' Let's hope and pray and do what we can from afar(give money, at least, to those who can do)that this period is as short as is communally possible(ie, humans on average), which is not the same as humanly possible.

Gradients can really be ugly sometimes; they are uncaring things. Maybe not New Orleans proper, but a year from now, the area in and around the devastation is going to be absolutely booming with reconstruction. There will be massive displacement and heartache and tragedy, and none of that can be made whole, but at least when it comes to employment as a means to reconstruct one's life, there will be enourmous opportunities for employment in and around the region, as clearly, there is a lot of work to do. The rest of the nation will help shoulder the burden and shower the region with the cash do do it, just add sweat and creativity and on average, people will do what people do.

But, it's still overhwhelming.

 

[Smurf]

It's the people's fault really. It's their damn insistance on lowering taxes. What do you expect to happen to federal agencies when you vote out anyone who raises taxes?

 

[2CentsWorth]

Zlex has a point. Americans (excluding the top 5%) pay a lot in taxes and expect something for it (imagine that). I would say this is why private enterprise is the way to go instead of big government. However, I have the same frustration with poor quality products or service these days, even when paying top dollar, so capitalism (free market competition) doesn't even work like it should.

 

[Astronuc]

Some interesting perspectives from Daniel Schorr -

The Federal Government's 'Strange Paralysis'
All Things Considered, September 5, 2005 · NPR senior news analyst Daniel Schorr says that the government's "strange paralysis" after Hurricane Katrina has resulted in a widespread loss of confidence in government agencies and officials -- and more significantly, with the whole concept of the role of the federal government.

After Katrina, an Atmosphere of Finger-Pointing
All Things Considered, September 7, 2005 · NPR's senior news analyst has been tracking the relief efforts for Katrina -- and how the White House has handled the crisis.


And - 'Times-Picayune' Editor Jim Amoss on Assessing Blame
Fresh Air from WHYY, September 9, 2005 · Jim Amoss is editor of The Times-Picayune in New Orleans. The newspaper's staff has been publishing online from Baton Rouge since evacuating its New Orleans offices last week.

The newspaper has criticized the federal government's response to the hurricane and published an open letter to President Bush calling for the firing of all Federal Emergency Management Agency officials -- especially director Michael Brown.

In Thursday's edition, the paper detailed the step-by-step turn of events Monday, August 29, when the hurricane turned into a catastrophe. According to the report, "Top officials continued to operate for a full day under the mistaken belief that the danger had passed."

 

[TRCSF]

Some interesting perspectives from Daniel Schorr -

The Federal Government's 'Strange Paralysis'
All Things Considered, September 5, 2005 · NPR senior news analyst Daniel Schorr says that the government's "strange paralysis" after Hurricane Katrina has resulted in a widespread loss of confidence in government agencies and officials -- and more significantly, with the whole concept of the role of the federal government.

After Katrina, an Atmosphere of Finger-Pointing
All Things Considered, September 7, 2005 · NPR's senior news analyst has been tracking the relief efforts for Katrina -- and how the White House has handled the crisis.


And - 'Times-Picayune' Editor Jim Amoss on Assessing Blame
Fresh Air from WHYY, September 9, 2005 · Jim Amoss is editor of The Times-Picayune in New Orleans. The newspaper's staff has been publishing online from Baton Rouge since evacuating its New Orleans offices last week.

The newspaper has criticized the federal government's response to the hurricane and published an open letter to President Bush calling for the firing of all Federal Emergency Management Agency officials -- especially director Michael Brown.

In Thursday's edition, the paper detailed the step-by-step turn of events Monday, August 29, when the hurricane turned into a catastrophe. According to the report, "Top officials continued to operate for a full day under the mistaken belief that the danger had passed."

Maybe I'm hearing that All Things Considered report wrong, but that sounds really, really, really messed up.

Anybody else hear the same thing?

 

[Astronuc]

Maybe I'm hearing that All Things Considered report wrong, but that sounds really, really, really messed up.

Anybody else hear the same thing?

Audio quality or Schorr's commentary?

 

[Skyhunter]

Zlex has a point. Americans (excluding the top 5%) pay a lot in taxes and expect something for it (imagine that). I would say this is why private enterprise is the way to go instead of big government. However, I have the same frustration with poor quality products or service these days, even when paying top dollar, so capitalism (free market competition) doesn't even work like it should.

Yes he does have a point.

But does he have any ideas as to how to fix it?

If so I would be interested in hearing them.

 

[Art]

Fox news gets funnier by the day, after O'Reilly accused the Canadians of contributing nothing in the wake of Katrina the Canadian ambassador appeared on a follow up show where he listed the multitude of things the Canadians had and were doing to help. One of these was providing search and rescue teams which arrived in the disaster area before Fema's. Changing tack abruptly he was then asked that "as there are many left leaning politicians in Canada was this a deliberate attempt to embarrass G. Bush?"
Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Only on Fox

 

[Astronuc]

September 9, 2005
Point Those Fingers
By PAUL KRUGMAN, NY Times Opinion

To understand the history of the Bush administration's response to disaster, just follow the catchphrases.

First, look at 2001 Congressional testimony by Joseph Allbaugh, President Bush's first pick to head the Federal Emergency Management Agency. FEMA, he said, would emphasize "Responsibility and Accountability" (capital letters and boldface in the original statement). He repeated the phrase several times.

What Mr. Allbaugh seems to have meant was that state and local government officials shouldn't count on FEMA to bail them out if they didn't prepare adequately for disasters. They should accept responsibility for protecting their constituents, and be held accountable if they don't.

But those were rules for the little people. Now that the Bush administration has botched its own response to disaster, we're not supposed to play the "blame game." Scott McClellan used that phrase 15 times over the course of just two White House press briefings.

It might make sense to hold off on the criticism if this were the first big disaster on Mr. Bush's watch, or if the chain of mistakes in handling Hurricane Katrina were out of character. But even with the most generous possible assessment, this is the administration's second big policy disaster, after Iraq. And the chain of mistakes was perfectly in character - there are striking parallels between the errors the administration made in Iraq and the errors it made last week.

In Iraq, the [Bush] administration displayed a combination of paralysis and denial after the fall of Baghdad, as uncontrolled looting destroyed much of Iraq's infrastructure.

The same deer-in-the-headlights immobility prevailed as Katrina approached and struck the Gulf Coast. The storm gave plenty of warning. By the afternoon of Monday, Aug. 29, the flooding of New Orleans was well under way - city officials publicly confirmed a breach in the 17th Street Canal at 2 p.m. Yet on Tuesday federal officials were still playing down the problem, and large-scale federal aid didn't arrive until last Friday.

:rofl:

 

[BobG]

I think Bush finally did something right in response to Katrina. Replacing Brown with VAdm Allen of the Coast Guard is good for two reasons:

1) The Coast Guard is about the only part of the federal response that worked well. Allen is the person who managed the transistion of the Coast Guard to the Department of Homeland Security and the Coast Guard seems to be the only component that was moved over still intact.

2) Governor Blanco hired Lee Witt to handle the state's part of Katrina response. A Vice Admiral in the Coast Guard is a little more politically neutral than a Republican appointee and Allen and Witt should be able to work together very smoothly.