I are hero!

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  • #26
Hurkyl said:
Look at it from my POV, who knows little about the incident.

Kat has just given a specific list of people, apparently those claimed to have served on the boat with Kerry, and explained that several of them could not have done so.
I couldn't find a good source online that said "11 of 12" specifically, but I've heard it on the major news networks. Check out http://factcheck.org/ and do a search on "swift boat veterans".
 
  • #27
kat said:
And no, I don't like his politics...which includes, for the past 30 years, smearing the memories of War hero's who did FULL tours in vietnam. Give me a break. I'd like to see some discussion of his Senate record, but we know he doesn't want that because being to the left of the left isn't going to win him the presidency.
So, if people in our military do bad things, we should just keep that knowledge to ourselves?
 
  • #28
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http://www.suntimes.com/output/elect/cst-nws-lips28.html [Broken]

Could John Kerry have forged the signature? (I don't know how awards are given, so I don't know if such a forgery is possible.)

Okay, so let me get this straight:

Former Secretary of the Navy John Lehman is a bitter old man, bought off by Republicans, who "was not there." Have I got it down yet?
 
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  • #30
kat
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Dissident Dan said:
So, if people in our military do bad things, we should just keep that knowledge to ourselves?
Does the term "smearing" suggest honesty to you?
 
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  • #31
Gza
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Does the term "smearing" suggest honesty to you?
Okay kat. Since I couldn't seem to get it right in my earlier post either; what do you mean by "smearing"?
 
  • #32
BobG
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JohnDubYa said:
http://www.suntimes.com/output/elect/cst-nws-lips28.html [Broken]

Could John Kerry have forged the signature? (I don't know how awards are given, so I don't know if such a forgery is possible.)

Okay, so let me get this straight:

Former Secretary of the Navy John Lehman is a bitter old man, bought off by Republicans, who "was not there." Have I got it down yet?
No, he couldn't have forged the signature on the original citation, nor could he fake the signatures required to process the decoration (obviously, a copy of a citation posted on a web site could be completely fake).

Shachte's (sp?) story about Kerry's first Purple Heart lacks credibility. If he was there (which is in dispute), the unanswered question about his story is "What were they shooting at when Kerry fired the grenade too close to the boat?"

Shachte says that he, himself, was shooting into the woods. Was he shooting to defend his boat or was he just initiating a couple of rookies and he was the only person in on the joke (the other person purportedly on the boat sure thought they were shooting at something and he dispute's Schachte's claim of being on the boat, at all).

It's a dead end story and, like just about all the others, it was never really meant to be more than a dead end story. It's the bait to get people's attention so they can shift the focus to their real issue - Kerry's anti-war activities.

The problem with this is that their main point winds up being the excuse for their own lies rather than the issue they wanted.

The second problem is choosing the wrong candidate to support with this type of add. Their ties to the Bush campaign are a little too close and this isn't the first time 'independent' Bush supporters have come out with 'low blow' ads against his opponent (in fact, the anti-McCain ads in the 2000 South Carolina primary were worse than the Swift Boat ads and are the main reason relations between Bush and McCain are still so strained, today).
 
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  • #33
kat said:
Does the term "smearing" suggest honesty to you?
A smear campaign is what's being carried out by the sbvft. The types of events that Kerry described have been well-documented.
 
  • #34
kat
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Dissident Dan said:
A smear campaign is what's being carried out by the sbvft. The types of events that Kerry described have been well-documented.
Well, we're not talking about "types of events" we're talking about events that pertain to Swift Boat Vets along with statements and testimony given by Kerry. Attempting to set the record straight when misleading statements have been made about you, is not "Smearing".
 
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  • #35
Kerry related both things that he saw and things that he had been told of. Some specific events have been verified and some have not. Those that have been verified are on the same levels of atrocity as those that have not. The sheer number and quality of the events that have been verified provide ample reason to think that those that have not been verified are not far-fetched.

The simple truth is that American soldiers committed horrible, horrible crimes. People of all nationalities, ethnicities, religions, etc. have done horrible things. Americans are not miraculously above everyone else in some ivory tower of purity.
 
  • #36
kat
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Dissident Dan said:
Kerry related both things that he saw and things that he had been told of. Some specific events have been verified and some have not. Those that have been verified are on the same levels of atrocity as those that have not. The sheer number and quality of the events that have been verified provide ample reason to think that those that have not been verified are not far-fetched.

The simple truth is that American soldiers committed horrible, horrible crimes. People of all nationalities, ethnicities, religions, etc. have done horrible things. Americans are not miraculously above everyone else in some ivory tower of purity.
I think, Dan, that you're giving a hell of a lot of gloss to Kerry's actions in regards to the winter soldier testimony. Kerry, admittedly either witnessed and took part in war crimes, and as an officer failed to report these war crimes...as was HIS duty. Kerry, gave testimony as truth from men who were imposters. Men who were NEVER in Vietnam. Kerry gave testimony that every one in vietnam was involved in war crimes. This is an outright lie. My father was never involvded in war crimes. My father never witnessed anyone cutting off ears, or action reminscent of Ganghis Kahn. So, perhaps SOME soldiers committed war crimes, but NOT of the manner that Kerry's FALSE testimony FROM FALSE witnesses portrayed.
If Kerry's personal testimony as to what HE witnessed and was aware of is TRUE then he should be charged for war crimes. As an officer IT WAS his responsibility. If his personal testimony is a lie, then his integrity is such that I would have to question the integrity of anyone who would vote for him.
FURTHERMORE his testimony was directly responsible for the pull out of vietnam without insuring the safety of our allies or the return of our POW's. THOSE deaths are on HIS head and they make any deaths that you want to attribute to George W. Bush look absolutely inconsequental.
You'd be better off to offer his Senate record rather then try to defend his winter soldier testimony. But then that also on amplifies how he has continuesly failed to support the military, and in fact actively worked to undermine it.
 
  • #37
amp
Kerry in his testimony was repeating and reinforcing what had already been spoken at another panel in I think Detriot.
 
  • #38
kat
26
0
amp said:
Kerry in his testimony was repeating and reinforcing what had already been spoken at another panel in I think Detriot.
Yes, Kerry's testimonies were based on a Vietnam Veterans Against War conference called the "Winter Soldier Investigation", that he helped organize which was held in Detroit. Kerry was a leader with the VVAW. The event was primarily funded by Jane Fonda and NONE of the Winter Soldier "witnesses" Kerry cited were willing to sign affadavits, and their "horrible" stories were not backed by names, dates or even the locations that would have allowed their claims to be investigated. Only a few were willing to cooperate with military investigators. When the claims were investigated it was found that several of the veterans said to have given statements at Winter Soldier were abosulute imposters and were actually using the name of real veterans.

The Senate testimony was a part of the VVAW's ongoing disinformation campaign.(the FBI files can be found online, very interesting BTW). The VVAW's (which I remind you Kerry was a leader of) Executive Secretary Al Hubbard claimed to have been an Air Force Captain wounded in Vietnam piloting a transport plane. But, in reality Hubbard had only been a staff sergeant who was not a even a pilot and who had never even been assigned to Vietnam.

John Kerry, right along with Jane Fonda and the VVAW worked closely with our enemies. he arranged and participated in multiple meetings with the North Vietnamese and Vietcong leaders. He supported their positions and he and his "brothers" of the VVAW also played a key role in defining the false, and damaging image of Vietnam veterans as psychologically disabled drug addicts and alcoholics so haunted by the crimes they had been forced to commit in a "racist" war that they weren't able to function in society. THIS was a the outright lie that so many Vet's had to battle upon their return. I would serious question the integrity of anyone who could vote for such a man, "anybody but Bush" or not.

Yes, there were war crimes in Vietnam BUT Kerry's testimony dirtied all of our vets EVEN those who served honorably.
 
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  • #39
amp
First you said "he helped organize" then you said "he wasthe leader of" which is it?
 
  • #40
kat
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amp said:
First you said "he helped organize" then you said "he wasthe leader of" which is it?
I'm sorry, you'll have to direct quote me and show me where I said he was
"THE" leader of.
Don't distort my words. :mad:
 
  • #41
amp
"Kerry was a leader with the VVAW." Sorry, leader normally means the 'one' in charge but as the quote shows you said 'A' leader meaning I guess he was one of multiple leaders of the org. What I hope is that you can direct me to some transcripts of the VVAW testimony in Detroit. "...their "horrible" stories were not backed by names, dates or even the locations that would have allowed their claims to be investigated." Pray tell how it could have been investigated 'then' as there is 'now' ample docmentation of horrible atrocities.
 
  • #42
russ_watters
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amp said:
"Kerry was a leader with the VVAW."
Amp, your quote in the last post was:
...then you said "he wasthe leader of" which is it?
Do you see any difference between those two quotes? There is a word that changed from one to the other. A plain ordinary lie is bad enough: misquoting someone like that is worse - its a double-lie.

Regarding the Swift Boat flap, I'll reiterate what I've said before, but with one addition:

Kerry miscalculated. He should have realized when he made this the centerpiece of his campaign that it would piss some people off. I'm sure some of what they have said is true, some is false, just like some of what Kerry said is true and some is false. Time and fog of war don't help either. But that's all part of the miscalculation.

What Kerry did after the war may be part of the motivation behind the SBV, but to me (and, it would appear, to kat) its is at least as bad as an inflated medal. Kerry might have stepped on one land mine already, but he's standing on a bigger one that may yet go off.
 
  • #43
amp
Russ, I'm sure you read my post and see I apologized to Kat for misquoting her "Sorry" then I went on to explain why I made the error.
 
  • #44
kat said:
Kerry gave testimony that every one in vietnam was involved in war crimes. This is an outright lie.
Show me a credible source for this claim.

But then that also on amplifies how he has continuesly failed to support the military, and in fact actively worked to undermine it.
Please, please read some independent Analysis. FactCheck.org is a good one: http://factcheck.org/article.aspx?docid=147 [Broken]

Also, note how ridiculously huge our military budget is: http://www.cdi.org/issues/wme/spendersFY03.html [Broken]

This is just not defensible to any rational person.
 
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  • #45
russ_watters
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Dissident Dan said:
Please, please read some independent Analysis. FactCheck.org is a good one: http://factcheck.org/article.aspx?docid=147 [Broken]
Dan, your source backs kat's claim:
In this 1984 campaign memo (which a Kerry spokesman confirms is genuine) the candidate called for cutting Ronald Reagan’s military budget by between $45 billion and $53 billion through (among other things) cancellation of the MX missile, B-1 bomber, anti-satellite weapons, and the “Star Wars” anti-missile program, along with several conventional weapons that have become mainstays of the present-day military, including the AH-64 Apache helicopter, the Aegis air-defense cruiser, and the F-14 and F-15 fighters. He also called for a 50% reduction in the Tomahawk cruise missile.

And during the same campaign, according to the Boston Globe, Kerry also advocated reductions in the M-1 Abrams tank, the Bradley Fighting Vehicle and the F-16 jet.
Also, note how ridiculously huge our military budget is: http://www.cdi.org/issues/wme/spendersFY03.html [Broken]

This is just not defensible to any rational person.
Well, that depends, Dan, on what you see as the role of our military and on how you slice the data: as a percentage of gdp, the numbers say something altogether different.
 
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