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I challenge you (Bush fans)

  1. Sep 2, 2004 #1
    Alright, to counter-act GENIERE's thread about being able to find a flip-flop about every stance Kerry's ever taken, I challenge you Bush fans to come up with stances that Bush's taken, and I'll see if I can't find an instance where he's flip-floped about his stance on it, or outright lied about it (ie. said he would buy a red house, bought a brown one).

    So, go nuts.

    And just to be fair, I'm not going to choose out flip-flops, expose them, and then give myself points, I'll only try to expose flip-flopping/lying about an issue someone else brings up.
  2. jcsd
  3. Sep 2, 2004 #2


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    Is this necessary ? I'm sure there are more useful things you can do with your time...
  4. Sep 2, 2004 #3
    Ya know, at 1:32 in the morning on a Thursday(the time I made this thread), I generally don't have very many useful things I can do, so trying to make people realize Bush isn't the straight talker with strong convictions he claims to be seems like an alright alternative to eating cookies and watching bad sitcoms. Hell, what is there that teenagers really do past midnight on weekdays during the summer besides go out and get drunk/high?
  5. Sep 2, 2004 #4


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    Today, I make our investment in science even greater. My administration will establish the U.S. Climate Change Research Initiative to study areas of uncertainty and identify priority areas where investments can make a difference.
  6. Sep 2, 2004 #5
    Alright, let's see...

    He claims he wants sound policies based on sound science, agree?

    "More than 60 leading scientists—including Nobel laureates, leading medical experts, former federal agency directors and university chairs and presidents—issued a statement calling for regulatory and legislative action to restore scientific integrity to federal policymaking. According to the scientists, the Bush administration has, among other abuses, suppressed and distorted scientific analysis from federal agencies, and taken actions that have undermined the quality of scientific advisory panels. "

    Ok, so a bunch of top scientists think Bush actually ended up lying, and hasn't used sound science in his policies. But that's a general thing, involving many issues, though it does include things about the Bush administration distorting the science about global warming/pollution, I'll try to get to a much more specific thing than scientists saying Bush distorts science.

    Here are a few quotes from the article you linked to:
    "Greenhouse gases trap heat, and thus warm the earth because they prevent a significant proportion of infrared radiation from escaping into space. Concentration of greenhouse gases, especially CO2, have increased substantially since the beginning of the industrial revolution."

    "We all believe technology offers great promise to significantly reduce emissions -- especially carbon capture, storage and sequestration technologies."

    And here's a quote from a campaign outline on Bush's environmental plan if elected from (you guessed it) before he was elected.

    "Governor Bush will work to...establish mandatory reduction targets for emissions of four main pollutants: sulfur dioxide, nitrogen oxide, mercury and carbon dioxide."

    It seems evident Bush understands Carbon Dioxide is causing global warming, is a danger, and it's emissions should be slowed, right?

    "I do not believe, however, that the government should impose on power plants mandatory emissions reductions for carbon dioxide, which is not a 'pollutant' under the Clean Air Act,"
    -Bush in a letter to Chuck Hagel, Republican Senator of Nebraska.

    So, not only has he reversed his position on whether or not CO2 should be regulated, he's also had the less important flip flop of saying originally that CO2 is a pollutant, then not.

    So is that enough of a flip-flop for you?

    I think that easily denotes 1 point to Bush's Flip Flopping column.

    Total score:
    Bush lying/flip-flopping: 1
    Bush staying consitant/straight-talking: 0
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2004
  7. Sep 2, 2004 #6


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    You're supposed to say, in bold, "Total Score : Flip/Lie - 1, No Flip/No Lie - 0"
  8. Sep 2, 2004 #7
    In 2002 the president proposed the following:

    Tightening of immigration, border control, extradition and secrecy laws.

    New measures to protect power plants, water supplies, bridges and other critical infrastructure assets.

    Nationwide standards for state drivers licenses.

    I've seen evidence of all of these. Just as promised. Whether or not you agree with them, he has done them.
  9. Sep 2, 2004 #8
    "Is our kids still learning?" ~ Bush.
  10. Sep 2, 2004 #9


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    Can we see some evidence of all these (post some resources) ?
  11. Sep 2, 2004 #10
    Very reasonable request. I have tried to provide some real world examples.

    DE River Bridge Authority Meeting minutes

    The part on security is at the end of page 2.

    Shortly after the President's address concerning these issues I had seen fencing and lights added to bridge areas that used to be highly accessible. I have also seen fencing go up around water works in several areas.

    Maryland Dept of Transportation Letter

    “Understandably, since the tragic events on September 11, even more stringent licensing requirements are in effect in Maryland.”

    I know many people in NJ as well that have had trouble renewing their licenses because of stricter requirements.

    Canada Border Control Meeting

    Friends of mine just returned from a trip to Canada. They took two cousins that were German citizens. They were very glad they had their passports when coming back into the USA.

    I also work for an engineering firm that does a lot of State work in DE. It is much more difficult to get into state facilities than it used to be.
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2004
  12. Sep 2, 2004 #11


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    Are there no rules in this thread? He did what he said he would do. No post's have or can state otherwise. Useless thread!
  13. Sep 2, 2004 #12
    What about the immigration amnesty? How is that a tightening of immigration?
  14. Sep 3, 2004 #13
    Are you kidding me?


    Earlier this year Bush proposed a plan giving amnesty to illegal immigrants, and because of it, even more illegal immigrants decided to sneak into the USA, needless to say, he's backed off of that brilliant idea of his.

    Bush may have put up some more fences and more lights on highways, but due to his ideas for policy, he's actually encouraged what he sought to diminsih. This isn't a flip-flop so much as a horrible failure.

    Total score:
    Bush lying/flip-flopping: 1
    Bush staying consitant/straight-talking: 0
    Bush's goals failing miserably because of stupidity: 1

    Please provide specific examples citing Bush for proposing/promising to do each of these specific things, because the way you stated all this, it's very vague, cite exactly what he said he would do, and I'll try to find if I can find a time where he said he'd do something different, or just didn't do what he promised.
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2004
  15. Sep 3, 2004 #14
    There are rules, well, more like an outline: "I challenge you Bush fans to come up with stances that Bush's taken, and I'll see if I can't find an instance where he's flip-floped about his stance on it, or outright lied about it (ie. said he would buy a red house, bought a brown one)."
    And why're you complaining about it, your outline was just you provide the stance, I'll provide the flip-flop, then you gave yourself a point for picking out something stupid Kerry's said. At least I didn't give myself points by juxtaposing campaign promises of not involving our troops abroad and being opposed to nation building with the current events in Iraq/Afghanistan, or show him saying "I want to be a peace President" and "You have to remember, I'm a war President".

    Bush, as I showed before, did not do what he said he would do in regards to the environment, and while he may have meant to lessen illegal immigration, his announcement of his amnisty plan actually caused an increase in illegal immigration. I don't care if you say that no one can or has shown Bush hasn't done what he says, when I've shown it, when Bush himself has realized and attempted to justify his own flip-flops on things like nation building and keeping strong ties with allies.

    What's this?
    Do I smell...

    But then, you say this is a useless thread, and don't play? Sounds like a fish on a wooden deck to me. :tongue2:

    Or could it be, you realize Bush doesn't keep consistant stances on any issues that matter? Perhaps he has taken a consistant stance on the drivers liscence thing mentioned before, but things like the economy, foreign policy, health-care, social issues, scientific issues, immigration, he's been all over the place, flip-flopping and lying his way through life.
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2004
  16. Sep 3, 2004 #15
    I don't see Bush as a flip flop type of person. You may not agree with his plans, but he seems to me to stick by them, at least in intent. For instance, the immigration plan was not intended to increase illegal immigrants. The intention was to control the status of the ones already coming in. Whether or not this worked is another issue. It was certainly not intended to increase the possibility of dangerous illegal immigrants gaining access to our country.

    In my opinion, George W. Bush is the strongest leader this country has had in a long time. I am not saying he is the best, but I do feel that he is the strongest (largely due to a congress majority in his party).

    Look around you, actually many of the changes are frightening, this is what I think scares many of the people who do not agree with his plans. He has the power and resolve to get things that he wants accomplished.
  17. Sep 3, 2004 #16
    Sticking to a plan isn't necessarily good. Hitler could stick to a plan too.
  18. Sep 3, 2004 #17


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    That's why Waste included the lying/misleading clause. I think it's better to flip-flop than to mislead the country and govern through misinformation.
  19. Sep 3, 2004 #18
    The fact is, Bush presents himself as a straight-talker, and you've obviously been caught up in that image. I started this so you could cite something Bush's said that you think he's been consistant on, and I'll try SHOW you that in many cases he either flip-flopped to that position, or flat out lied about what he was going to do in relation to it. Look at the thing I posted earlier about the environment, you can read varying Bush quotes that show he's either a flip-flopper or a liar.
  20. Sep 3, 2004 #19
    Hitler was also a strong leader. Not a good one, but a strong one.

    Yeah, I figured that was why. That is why I only mentioned the flip-flop part.

    Then we have the question of whether it is lying or just bad information. Do appropriate actions applied to bad information make him a bad leader? Of course if the information is discovered to be wrong I would not mind a flip-flop to adjust.

    What I am saying is that if GWB sets his mind on a goal, it seems to get accomplished. I don't think he gives a rat's butt on environmental issues and therefore he may have flipped on this issue. I don't necessarily see it as weak leadership (those who are worried about those issues probably disagree).

    By the way guys, I expected some flaming on my last post, you've all been very well behaved. :smile: :wink:
  21. Sep 3, 2004 #20
    Exactly, I am pretty sick of hearing the rhetoric from the RNC that Bush "makes the tough decisions and sticks to them." I'm not even going to insult the intelligence of those who participate in this forum by listing examples of "tough decisions" that turned out to be wrong decisions. Being strong is a good trait but being sensible and humble are not all bad. Zell Miller might as well go on about how stubborn the president is and how that makes him "fit" for command. Oh and to stay in line with the topic of this thread, I love the flip-flop about the war on terrorism being unwinnable to "we will win." I think Bush was telling the truth at first but he obviously felt the pressure not only from the left but from his base, many of which will take what they want to hear over the truth.
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