Barack Obama vs John McCain: Can Dems Avoid Defeat?

[WarPhalange]

Oh, please.

The Video from Colbert. A hitpiece from MSNBC. Olbermann get's to voice his opinions without substantiation, nice.

He put up quotes.

Also, Colbert? Huh?

I again note that the *hordes* of examples again centers primarily on the house question.

That's just the latest.

The guest too misrepresents McCain when he says something to the effect of "McCain used his POW as an excuse for his *inability* to remember how many houses he had"

Where did McCain do that? Where did McCain blame his forgetfullness or inability to answer on his POW experience?

The host was being kind to McCain. McCain Inc. responded by saying "He was a POW!111", so the host connected the two together, despite their not being a connection.

He could have easily said "That's BULLS***"

Which would you have preferred?

 

[seycyrus]

Right. And Hitler wasn't a murderer because he himself never directly killed anybody.

You are telling me straightfaced, that from now on. I can say "Obama said this or Obama said that..." even tho a staff member said it and not Obama himself?

Do we really want to go down that path?

 

[WarPhalange]

You are telling me straightfaced, that from now on. I can say "Obama said this or Obama said that..." even tho a staff member said it and not Obama himself?

Yes, that is the premise behind having these people work for you. It's so you can get a night's sleep while other people answer questions in your name.

Do we really want to go down that path?

Yes, yes I do. If the Obama Camp said anything stupid, I want to know about it. I don't want him to hide behind his staffers. That's disingenuous.

seycyrus, you don't seem to understand that I'm not like you. I'm not a partisan groupie. I don't care which side wins, and I'm more than happy to scrutinize both parties.

 

[seycyrus]

Also, Colbert?

Mistake on my part.

That's just the latest.

It's not "just the lastest". It's the primary. That's why it's been brought up like 6 times in the past 10 minutes. That's why you're using it as an example over and over again.

 

[seycyrus]

Yes, that is the premise behind having these people work for you. It's so you can get a night's sleep while other people answer questions in your name.
Yes, yes I do.
If the Obama Camp said anything stupid, I want to know about it. I don't want him to hide behind his staffers. That's disingenuous..

Stop with the fallacious implications.

If someone on this forum were to claim that "Putin said blank " I think it is fairly obvious that everyone assumes that Putin himself actually made the statement.

seycyrus, you don't seem to understand that I'm not like you. I'm not a partisan groupie. I don't care which side wins, and I'm more than happy to scrutinize both parties.

I see no evidence of your self-proclaimed non-partisan nature. I do note, however, your implied insults.

 

[WarPhalange]

Stop with the fallacious implications.

If someone on this forum were to claim that "Putin said blank " I think it is fairly obvious that everyone assumes that Putin himself actually made the statement.

McCain said he is familiar with inadequate healthcare from "another government".

McCain said he was a POW when asked how many houses he owned.

McCain said he lived in Hanoi the longest when accused of carpetbagging (i.e. moving to a new district in order to get elected there).

If that's not invoking his POW past to completely derail a question, then I don't know what is. The fact that he's letting his campaign staff do the same is proof that he doesn't care.

I see no evidence of your self-proclaimed non-partisan nature. I do note, however, your implied insults.

It's not a insult, it's a fact. If you choose to take your allegiance to the right as an insult, then that's your problem.

 

[Gokul43201]

Seycyrus, who do you want to hold accountable for what the campaign spokespersons say?

 

[LightbulbSun]

Knowing how easily Americans fall for propaganda techniques, and how racist some people still are, I wouldn't be surprised if McCain won the presidency. Does McCain even have a long term plan? All he says is "we need to sustain." Sustain what exactly?

 

[WarPhalange]

Neither candidate has given out any real plans, which royally pisses me off.

It's "Let's leave Iraq within 15 months!" vs. "Let's win in Iraq... by winning!"

 

[russ_watters]

Did McCain win any states besides the loony, left wing New England states? I think Bush won over 40 states. Political machinations aside, that's a drubbin'. McCain didn't ever get popular with bread and butter Republicans - he won mostly from the backing of independents (and that's why he won the states that he did).

Due to their nature (they aren't all on the same day), primary elections are all about momentum (see: Hillary vs Obama). So while I realize that in the end, Bush's victory was pretty big, that doesn't make it an easy one. Just after the NH primary (2/7/00 poll), McCain was the leading candidate in either party. He even held a polling lead in SC for a little while (2/5/00) -- until he was undone by the attack ads. Here's CNN's polls from that primary season: http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2000/resources/polls.html

And for a reason. Russ, you may not like to believe this, but the Republican party is way more religious and socially conservative than you are.

No, I'm well aware of it, though I wouldn't say it in quite the same way: I would say that the republican power base is far to the right of me. That doesn't mean the party as a whole (by that I mean it's members) are that far right. I would say I'm probably more moderate than the average republican, but the power base is also well to the right of the average republican.

And way more religious and socially conservative than McCain was. McCain learned that the hard way. If McCain had run another 2000 Primary this year, he'd have lost again, to the new Party favorite. This year, though, the Party was having a little harder time picking a favorite: their star candidate was a Mormon; Giuliani, a social liberal; Huckabee was too clean for politics; Paul was an anti-war freakshow; and the others were non-starters (even Thompson).

But McCain wasn't taking any chances this year, was he? He ingratiated himself with the Christian Right, hired the Rove-Bush political attack dogs (yes, the gang that slimed McCain in 2000) to run his campaign, chose to milk his POW experience dry, decided it was a good idea to equivocate on intelligent design and established a voting record and campaign positions almost exactly matching Bush's (and proudly saying so himself). He knew what he needed to do to appeal to the Republican base, and it worked. The McCain that was rejected by Republicans for Bush is now the new Party messiah.

I agree with all the facts you have there, but the resulting opinion is where we have differed in the past. It doesn't bother me that McCain ingratiated himself with the power base. That's because that's not the "real" McCain. If he gets elected, most of that goes out the window. He's playing the game right now - that's all. That's why I still like him.

It's a funny catch-22, though: this game has two parts and what wins in one part doesn't necessarily win in the other. McCain's positions earned him bipartisan support in 2000, which would have played well in the general election, but hurt him in the primaries. Now it's the reverse that we are seeing and the only way he is still in it at all is people like me want to believe he's still the maverick.

 

[mathwonk]

peace my friends. i think most of us want the same outcome, but disagree on who will deliver it. may the wisest prevail.

 

[mathwonk]

i knew it! you are political junkies! you are all watching the convention.

 

[LightbulbSun]

i knew it! you are political junkies! you are all watching the convention.

Maybe it's a bit ignorant and premature of me, but Obama seems like he'll turn out to be one of those historic presidents, in the same league as Lincoln, Roosevelt etc.

 

[wildman]

Obama is a much stronger candidate than Kerry. Kerry's record on the war was not at all impressive when you look at the total package, which included his extremist anti-war views and associations at the end of the war. The handful of relatively minor medals he got could not possibly overcome that.

Even that aside, Kerry was at best a mediocre candidate. He wasn't charismatic, he looked unhealthy, and he did not inspire confidence or inspiration. Bush won a battle of the mediocres.

Both Obama and McCain are probably the strongest candidates we've seen in my lifetime. Either would defeat any of the candidates the other party has put up in the past 30 years, with the possible exception of Reagan.

Reagan won the Presidency because he was a cheerleader and little else. And that's what Obama is trying to do, but times are more complicated today than they were in 1980 and people are starting to ask what his real ideas are. I'm sure Obama will get a huge bounce from the convention - when he gives a prepared speech, he makes people stand up and cheer. But after that fades, he'll have to start convincing people he has some substance.

McCain, being older and better known is much less of a question mark. There isn't as much he can do in the next few months to help or hurt himself. So really, it's up to Obama. If his popularity peaks soon and starts to fall again as the rapture wears off, he'll lose.

Kerry was amazingly bad at running for President. It was almost like he wanted Bush to win.

That said, the silver star is not a minor decoration. It is awarded for Extraordinary Heroism in the face of enemy action. The Purple Heart is also not minor. It is considered by personal in the military to be the second most prestigious decoration after the Medal of Honor. The fact that Kerry was active in opposing the Vietnam after his service doesn't change any of this.

The whole swift boat thing could have easily been defeated by simply pointing out that the military doesn't wily nilly hand out decorations like silver stars and purple hearts. There are investigations and the other officers are given a chance to put in their input. Those officers who smeared his name had their chance in Vietnam, but they stayed silent. They only suddenly decided that he didn't deserve those decorations when it was politically convenient.

Actually, the whole swift boat thing was an insult to all our decorated heroes. And the fact that it was done by someone who was basically a draft dodger (albeit a legal one) just makes it all that much worse.

And this comes from someone who (I am ashamed to say now) voted for Bush in 2000.

 

[wildman]

We're not talking about Bush here. We're talking about the ridiculous claim that John Kerry was a war hero. If you read the full record of his self-inflicted pin prick, you will find that the attending medical personnel did not want to report it as a wound worthy of a Purple Heart because of its extremely minor nature. It was only after Kerry's insistence that it gained him a Purple Heart.

ANYONE who serves in combat is a hero. Period. I quote from the official record. Not something made up by the politically motivated:

The President of the United States takes pleasure in presenting the Silver Star Medal to

JOHN FORBES KERRY

LIEUTENANT JUNIOR GRADE

UNITED STATES NAVAL RESERVE

for service as set forth in the following:

CITATION

"For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity in action while serving as Officer in Charge of United States Navy Patrol Craft Fast 94 and officer in Tactical Command of an operation in the Republic of Vietnam. On 28 February 1969, Patrol Craft Fast 23, 43 and 94, in conjunction with Underwater Demolition Team 13 and Vietnamese Regional and Popular Forces personnel, conducted an operation on the Ca Mau Peninsula as part of Operation SEA LORDS. While transiting the Bay Hap River en route to an insertion point along the Dong Cung River, these craft with thirty Regional/Popular Force personnel embarked in each unit came under heavy enemy small arms fire from the river banks. The Officer in Tactical Command, Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY directed his units to turn to the beach and charge the Viet Cong positions. Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY expertly directed the fire of his craft at the fleeing enemy while simultaneously coordinating the insertion of the embarked troops. While the Regional and Popular Forces conducted an area sweep, Patrol Craft Fast 43 remained on station to provide fire support and Patrol Craft Fast 23 and 94 moved upstream to investigate an area from which gunshots were coming. Arriving at the area, Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY's craft received a B-40 rocket close aboard. Once again Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY ordered his units to charge the enemy positions and summoned Patrol Craft Fast 43 to the area to provide additional firepower. Patrol Craft Fast 94 then beached in the center of the enemy positions and an enemy soldier sprang up from his position not ten feet from Patrol Craft Fast 94 and fled. Without hesitation Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY leaped ashore, pursued the man behind a hootch and killed him, capturing a B-40 rocket launcher with a round in the chamber. Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY then led an assault party and conducted a sweep of the area while the Patrol Craft Fast continued to provide fire support. After the enemy had been completely routed, all personnel returned to the Patrol Craft Fast to withdraw from the area. While backing off the beach, these units again came under a hail of fire, this time from the opposite river bank. Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY immediately coordinated the firepower of his units and supressed the enemy fire. Later, after disembarking personnel, and while exiting from the Bay Hap River, the Patrol Craft Fast were again under fire. Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY immediately maneuvered his craft through several strafing runs which completely silenced the enemy. As a result of this operation, ten Viet Cong were killed and one wounded with no friendly casualties. In addition, numerous sampans, structures and bunkers were destroyed as well as confiscation of substantial quantities of combat essential supplies. Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY's devotion to duty, courage under fire, outstanding leadership, and exemplary professionalism directly contributed to the success of this operation and were in keeping with the highest traditions of the Unites States Naval Service."
For the President
E.R. ZUMWALT, Jr.
Vice Admiral, U. S. Navy
Commander U. S. Naval Forces, Vietnam

 

[seycyrus]

...
It's not a insult, it's a fact. If you choose to take your allegiance to the right as an insult, then that's your problem.

I'm sorry, but it is *not* a fact. I am not a groupie.

Perhaps your "I'm not like you..., I'm not ***" insinuations work for you in scoring points with your juvenile friends, but I see right through it.

 

[seycyrus]

Seycyrus, who do you want to hold accountable for what the campaign spokespersons say?

Gokul, on matters of policy and such I certainly feel that staffers speak for their candidate. But I do not hold the candidate personally responsible for every little quip.

Do you not think that we need to differentiate between "Putin said &&&" and "A guy on Putin's staff said &&&"? At the very least for the sake of clarity?

The argument being presented is that there is no difference *at all*. Are we going to apply this same standard to everybody, or just to people we dislike?

I believe that Obama is going to win the election. I for one will not applying this loose interpretation of "who said what", to everything anyone in his administration says.

 

[isly ilwott]

ANYONE who serves in combat is a hero. Period. I quote from the official record. Not something made up by the politically motivated:

The official records are not generated for political reasons. They are examined by those who want to know the truth about claims such as he made. I went through all this mess on another forum years ago. It is documented. Kerry's pin prick, band-aid wound got him one of his Purple Hearts.

 

[wildman]

The official records are not generated for political reasons. They are examined by those who want to know the truth about claims such as he made. I went through all this mess on another forum years ago. It is documented. Kerry's pin prick, band-aid wound got him one of his Purple Hearts.

100% of the enlisted men who served under Kerry support his decorations and his heroism. Yes that is 100%. I take that as A LOT more credible than some officers who didn't speak up at the time and now suddenly have found Jesus.

Ok. I made a fat target for you. But it has to be enlisted men who were actually serving under him. Not like the swift boat officers who were miles away from him when any of this happened.

 

[jaap de vries]

I think the democrats have shown a lot more class by acknowledging McCain’s heroism during the Vietnam War. It is sad that the same amount of decency is not given to Kerry. It is almost as if the democrats are held by a higher moral standard by both the Dems and the republicans.
The choice is very simple. If you think things are going well now, vote McCain. If you think things should change, vote Obama.
If the Dems are going to loose this election they might as well give up as a party.

 

[isly ilwott]

100% of the enlisted men who served under Kerry support his decorations and his heroism. Yes that is 100%.

Hearsay at best.

I take that as A LOT more credible than some officers who didn't speak up at the time and now suddenly have found Jesus.

Opinion.

Ok. I made a fat target for you. But it has to be enlisted men who were actually serving under him. Not like the swift boat officers who were miles away from him when any of this happened.

I wouldn't spend 10 seconds trying to verify what you say here...and he (Kerry) didn't spend Christmas in Cambodia.




http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39889

Read all about the band-aid Purple Heart.

I don't doubt that Kerry displayed some valor during his stint in Vietnam. Maybe he deserved two of the Purple Hearts. Maybe he deserved the Silver Star. He just didn't deserve the Presidency...that's why he lost the election.

 

[isly ilwott]

I think the democrats have shown a lot more class by acknowledging McCain’s heroism during the Vietnam War. It is sad that the same amount of decency is not given to Kerry. It is almost as if the democrats are held by a higher moral standard by both the Dems and the republicans.
The choice is very simple. If you think things are going well now, vote McCain. If you think things should change, vote Obama.
If the Dems are going to loose this election they might as well give up as a party.

If a man tells the truth about his past, no amount of questioning can negate that truth. The truth is that John Kerry lied to us. Detailed, extensive questioning of the statements and claims of a Presidential candidate is to be expected.

 

[wildman]

I don't doubt that Kerry displayed some valor during his stint in Vietnam. Maybe he deserved two of the Purple Hearts. Maybe he deserved the Silver Star. He just didn't deserve the Presidency...that's why he lost the election.

Good enough for me. I don't really care whether he deserved the Presidency or not. My motivation is not political.

Here is some interesting reading on the subject in the Snopes Urban Legends page:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/service.asp

 

[isly ilwott]

Good enough for me. I don't really care whether he deserved the Presidency or not. My motivation is not political.

Here is some interesting reading on the subject in the Snopes Urban Legends page:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/service.asp

I found that, too...not very impressive...and it does not refute the second effort of Mr. Kerry to have his minor wound qualify for a Purple Heart.

 

[wildman]

I found that, too...not very impressive...and it does not refute the second effort of Mr. Kerry to have his minor wound qualify for a Purple Heart.

You know, in the end, the size of the wound is irrelevant. The reason that the Purple Heart is a prestigious decoration has nothing to do with the wound. Any fool can get himself wounded. No, it is a demonstration that one was in the heat of combat. You don't get combat wounds serving as a desk jockey. Purple Hearts are handed out all the time for minor wounds. It is not unusual for combat vets from WW II to have 5 or more Purple Hearts. It is obvious that their wounds were not all that serious or they would have survived long enough to receive that many decorations.

The thing that upsets me is the dishonorable manner that Bush behaved. He was after all basically a draft dodger (the National Guard was used to dodge the draft by rich connected men). I voted for him in 2000, but after the swift boats, I decided that I couldn't in good conscience vote for him in 2004.

 

[turbo]

One thing missing from this discussion is how incredibly dangerous service on those small boats was. My HS girlfriend's older brother was a non-com on one of those boats, and they lost crew-members to ambush several times. Those rivers were bordered with lush vegetation and a place that they traversed without incident one day could be a hell-hole of enemy fire the next. I was not in favor of the Vietnam War, but the men who felt the duty to serve in it (especially in very risky roles) have my undying respect. BTW, My GF's brother was a bully and an arrogant jerk during our time together in the Boy Scouts and in school. I still respect his service.

One of my former co-workers was a Navy Seal who served as a forward observer for naval gunnery. He was inserted into hostile territory, conducted surveillance, and called in fire from the big battleships. Eventually, the NV forces would start to figure out where he might be, and start searching. He'd scram out of there, after calling in fire on his own position. He was one of the most quiet, unassuming men I have ever met, and he only told me of his war-time experiences after working together for months, and then usually only on our quiet lunch-breaks on the midnight shift.

I wouldn't care if either of these guys got a Purple Heart because they caught a small piece of shrapnel that required only a bit of antibiotic salve and a band-aid. I've heard that my former co-worker was highly decorated, but I didn't feel entitled to ask and he never volunteered the information.

 

[BobG]

Obama is a much stronger candidate than Kerry. Kerry's record on the war was not at all impressive when you look at the total package, which included his extremist anti-war views and associations at the end of the war. The handful of relatively minor medals he got could not possibly overcome that.

Even that aside, Kerry was at best a mediocre candidate. He wasn't charismatic, he looked unhealthy, and he did not inspire confidence or inspiration. Bush won a battle of the mediocres.

Both Obama and McCain are probably the strongest candidates we've seen in my lifetime. Either would defeat any of the candidates the other party has put up in the past 30 years, with the possible exception of Reagan.

I agree. Whichever side wins, history is made.

This is looking to be the most fun election in my lifetime. I've never seen an election with two good candidates before. Usually, the only reason elections are close are because both candidates suck.

100% of the enlisted men who served under Kerry support his decorations and his heroism. Yes that is 100%. I take that as A LOT more credible than some officers who didn't speak up at the time and now suddenly have found Jesus.

Ok. I made a fat target for you. But it has to be enlisted men who were actually serving under him. Not like the swift boat officers who were miles away from him when any of this happened.

Actually, one of the Swift Boat officers, John Clayton Lee, won a medal in one of the same battles that Kerry won one of his. On the other hand, Lee didn't feel either his or Kerry's medals were undeserved for that particular battle. Lee's beef was the cheap medals Kerry won in other battles - battles Lee wasn't present at.

And one of Kerry's crewmembers, Steven Gardner, was one of the Swift Boat Vets, but he was a crewmember at a different time period than the period that Kerry won his medals in.

Your point is still valid though.

The whole Swift Boat Vet commercial series was something that was condemned even by many Republicans, including, and perhaps even more strongly, by John McCain.

 

[Gokul43201]

Gokul, on matters of policy and such I certainly feel that staffers speak for their candidate. But I do not hold the candidate personally responsible for every little quip.

Do you not think that we need to differentiate between "Putin said &&&" and "A guy on Putin's staff said &&&"? At the very least for the sake of clarity?

I agree there's a difference, particularly if it is one member of the campaign that goes off on his/her own and says something that is counter to what the campaign stands for. But when it comes out of more than one campaign spokesperson, and looks more like campaign strategy than loose cannonism, then you must hold the candidate responsible, mustn't you?

When we speak of what Obama or McCain have said during the campaign, we are really talking about what their campaigns are saying. You can't just let your campaign staff and advisors do the dirty work for you and expect none of that dirt to stick to you.