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I think Jesus sinned !

  1. Sep 3, 2003 #1
    If I say something unwise or obviously wrong, either intentionally or unintentionally, people who heard it , follow my words and do wrong, I think, I should be accountable for it ! I sinned !

    Back to Jesus, he said something like "if you do not love me more than youe parents, you can not be my disciple".

    Some zealous christians, who faced objection from parents, unwaveringly broke relationship with their parents for the sake of Jesus, this harms the feeling of their parents!

    Isn't that sin of Jesus for teaching people something like that?
  2. jcsd
  3. Sep 3, 2003 #2
    NOW you are starting to get it...it is a story, told by men, to control your mind. Think about it: in America, at least, one of the defining characteristics of a brainwashing cult is cutting off your contact with friends and family.
  4. Sep 3, 2003 #3
    jesus was a great guy, a really really great great guy. but he was human too. i personally forget about all that really religious stuff and just put some faith in guys like jesus or buddah. they're human and tangible; wise and easy to understand, good people in my book.

    i like what FZ+ said:
    just chill out, don't worry too much about god, if he exists then i'd assume all that predestination stuff does too, and so you can't really help what you're gonna do anyways, he already knows.
  5. Sep 3, 2003 #4

    Les Sleeth

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    What makes you think you understand what Jesus meant? If he is as profound as people say, then maybe it is you who have sinned by interpreting his words so superficially. (Actually I don't believe in sin, I am just teasing you.)

    Say you have been playing tennis for two years and can't get past being an average player. You are bored and so decide you want to learn to play tennis according to the best principles. You go to a great coach, and he tell you that you have to stop playing tennis with all your mediocre friends, and just practice with him.

    Why is that? Because he is trying to suck you into a tennis cult? Or is it that you have developed bad habits, and every time you play with your friends you reinforce your bad habits? Could it be he wants to isolate you to help you focus on learning those principles that lead to excellence?
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2003
  6. Sep 3, 2003 #5
    Jesus also taught "let the dead bury the dead!"
    Some chinese christians quote this to refuse paying respect to dead people in funeral.

    Isn't that unethical ?

    I just want to point out, the definition of sin should include your influence on people to do something wrong, if this definition is true, then Jesus sinned!
  7. Sep 3, 2003 #6

    Les Sleeth

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    You are not going to get far understanding Jesus by just reading isolated quotes (just so you know, I am not a Christian, nor do I belong to any other religion . . . my objections are about logic and the accuracy of information used to make one's points).

    Do you know where that quote came from? Do you know if the source is reliable? How do you know Jesus even said it, or if some writer decades later, using the name of a disciple, recorded legends that had been passed down from memory.

    Do you know what sin is? Are you sure it even makes sense? Are you certain Jesus really believed in the concept of sin, or if maybe he was just speaking in the language of the times and culture?

    Do you know the context within which Jesus said, "let the dead bury the dead"? Is there any possible way for that to be something very special,something powerful and good, instead of something cold and insensitive as you seem so ready to assume?

    Why don't you give me everything you have said over the last five years, and I bet you I could take some of it out of context, and paint just about any portrait of you I want to.

    Are you a scholar, or just another superficial pot-shotter? Opinions that are uninformed are exactly as they say about that posterior body part we all have.
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2003
  8. Sep 7, 2003 #7
    Jesus was very venemous toward the Scribes and Pharisees. I cannot understand his hatred of them. If you have a new testament with the words of crist in red, try reading just the words of Jesus. He says some hatefull things about them.

    I did a google search on the Pharisees and found that they were very devout God fearing men, fully doing what God commanded them to do in the Torah.
  9. Sep 8, 2003 #8
    First of all Jesus was talking to his prospective deciples in both quotes and his words were meant only for them. He was simply saying that to be my desiple you must lay aside your worldly ties and follow me. This was no sin.

    As far as forgiveness goes God does not forgive, he understands. Do we have to forgive our children for being children? Do we love them any less because they are children and not yet disciplined, civilized, knowledgeble or wise? Do we expect less from God?

    We sin only against ourself and we need only to forgive ourselves.
    Only by knowingly and intentionally going and doing against the will of God, do we sin against God. Then we have only to stop sinning and be repentant, sincerely sorry, and ask for forgiveness then we are forgiven.
  10. Sep 8, 2003 #9
    this may be difficult to read. i'm sorry.

    what if i now told you that because i'm not smart enough to explain to you my picture of reality i will kill myself in exactly three days? what if i told you i believe i will rise three days after that?

    what would you do?

    would you contact the webmaster and have my ip address hunted down so that i could be "saved?"

    would you think it is a test of your gullibiliy and hate me?

    would you even care?

    i contend that jesus made a serious, delusional error when he decided that he needed to sacrifice himself.

    when you think of suicide, that means you are DEPRESSED.

    and believe me, i am NOT depressed. depression can be reasoned through if the intellect is willing.

    and i am NOT ever going to sacrifice myself because i'm too stupid to figure out how to teach you. (not that i have anything to teach, really.)

    i believe delusion is infectious like a virus. when you listen to delusional people, you become delusional. and jesus was very delusional, people listened, and have become delusional. look at all the murder done in his name.

    i hope that i have purified myself of delusion. i'm always trying harder.

    the flaw in jesus' way of thinking was believing that you need miracles to believe him. you don't. you just need to apply strict, rigorous INTELLECT. a higher dimensional intellect.

    may your journey be graceful,
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2003
  11. Sep 8, 2003 #10
    now, let me give you the supposed writings of thomas who talked with jesus after jesus revived. this was intentionally left out of the bible for reasons only the church knows. see the end for references.

    i tried attaching the file but i'm not sure if it's visible, so i'll include as much of it as i can here:

    The "Scholars' Translation" of the Gospel of Thomas
    by Stephen Patterson and Marvin Meyer
    These are the secret sayings that the living Jesus spoke and Didymos Judas Thomas recorded.
    1 And he said, "Whoever discovers the interpretation of these sayings will not taste death."
    2 Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all. [And after they have reigned they will rest.]"
    3 Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is within you and it is outside you.
    When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty."
    4 Jesus said, "The person old in days won't hesitate to ask a little child seven days old about the place of life, and that person will live.
    For many of the first will be last, and will become a single one."
    5 Jesus said, "Know what is in front of your face, and what is hidden from you will be disclosed to you.
    For there is nothing hidden that will not be revealed. [And there is nothing buried that will not be raised."]
    6 His disciples asked him and said to him, "Do you want us to fast? How should we pray? Should we give to charity? What diet should we observe?"
    Jesus said, "Don't lie, and don't do what you hate, because all things are disclosed before heaven. After all, there is nothing hidden that will not be revealed, and there is nothing covered up that will remain undisclosed."
    7 Jesus said, "Lucky is the lion that the human will eat, so that the lion becomes human. And foul is the human that the lion will eat, and the lion still will become human."
    8 And he said, The person is like a wise fisherman who cast his net into the sea and drew it up from the sea full of little fish. Among them the wise fisherman discovered a fine large fish. He threw all the little fish back into the sea, and easily chose the large fish. Anyone here with two good ears had better listen!
    9 Jesus said, Look, the sower went out, took a handful (of seeds), and scattered (them). Some fell on the road, and the birds came and gathered them. Others fell on rock, and they didn't take root in the soil and didn't produce heads of grain. Others fell on thorns, and they choked the seeds and worms ate them. And others fell on good soil, and it produced a good crop: it yielded sixty per measure and one hundred twenty per measure.
    10 Jesus said, "I have cast fire upon the world, and look, I'm guarding it until it blazes."
    11 Jesus said, "This heaven will pass away, and the one above it will pass away.
    The dead are not alive, and the living will not die. During the days when you ate what is dead, you made it come alive. When you are in the light, what will you do? On the day when you were one, you became two. But when you become two, what will you do?"
    12 The disciples said to Jesus, "We know that you are going to leave us. Who will be our leader?"
    Jesus said to them, "No matter where you are you are to go to James the Just, for whose sake heaven and earth came into being."
    13 Jesus said to his disciples, "Compare me to something and tell me what I am like."
    Simon Peter said to him, "You are like a just messenger."
    Matthew said to him, "You are like a wise philosopher."
    Thomas said to him, "Teacher, my mouth is utterly unable to say what you are like."
    Jesus said, "I am not your teacher. Because you have drunk, you have become intoxicated from the bubbling spring that I have tended."
    And he took him, and withdrew, and spoke three sayings to him. When Thomas came back to his friends they asked him, "What did Jesus say to you?"
    Thomas said to them, "If I tell you one of the sayings he spoke to me, you will pick up rocks and stone me, and fire will come from the rocks and devour you."
    14 Jesus said to them, "If you fast, you will bring sin upon yourselves, and if you pray, you will be condemned, and if you give to charity, you will harm your spirits.
    When you go into any region and walk about in the countryside, when people take you in, eat what they serve you and heal the sick among them.
    After all, what goes into your mouth will not defile you; rather, it's what comes out of your mouth that will defile you."
    15 Jesus said, "When you see one who was not born of woman, fall on your faces and worship. That one is your Father."
    16 Jesus said, "Perhaps people think that I have come to casy peace upon the world. They do not know that I have come to cast conflicts upon the earth: fire, sword, war.
    For there will be five in a house: there'll be three against two and two against three, father against son and son against father, and they will stand alone.
    17 Jesus said, "I will give you what no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, what no hand has touched, what has not arisen in the human heart."
    18 The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us, how will our end come?"
    Jesus said, "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is.
    Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
    19 Jesus said, "Congratulations to the one who came into being before coming into being.
    If you become my disciples and pay attention to my sayings, these stones will serve you.
    For there are five trees in Paradise for you; they do not change, summer or winter, and their leaves do not fall. Whoever knows them will not taste death."
    20 The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us what Heaven's kingdom is like."
    He said to them, It's like a mustard seed, the smallest of all seeds, but when it falls on prepared soil, it produces a large plant and becomes a shelter for birds of the sky.
    21 Mary said to Jesus, "What are your disciples like?"
    He said, They are like little children living in a field that is not theirs. when the owners of the field come, they will say, "Give us back our field." They take off their clothes in front of them in order to give it back to them, and they return their field to them.
    For this reason I say, if the owners of a house know that a thief is coming, they will be on guard before the thief arrives and will not let the thief break into their house (their domain) and steal their possessions.
    As for you, then, be on guard against the world. Prepare yourselves with great strength, so the robbers can't find a way to get to you, for the trouble you expect will come.
    Let there be among you a person who understands.
    When the crop ripened, he came quickly carrying a sickle and harvested it. Anyone here with two good ears had better listen!
    22 Jesus saw some babies nursing. He said to his disciples, "These nursing babies are like those who enter the kingdom."
    They said to him, "Then shall we enter the kingdom as babies?"
    Jesus said to them, "When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female, when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]."
    23 Jesus said, "I shall choose you, one from a thousand and two from ten thousand, and they will stand as a single one."
    24 His disciples said, "Show us the place where you are, for we must seek it."
    He said to them, "Anyone here with two ears had better listen! There is light within a person of light, and it shines on the whole world. If it does not shine, it is dark."
    25 Jesus said, "Love your friends like your own soul, protect them like the pupil of your eye."
    26 Jesus said, "You see the sliver in your friend's eye, but you don't see the timber in your own eye. When you take the timber out of your own eye, then you will see well enough to remove the sliver from your friend's eye."
    27 "If you do not fast from the world, you will not find the kingdom. If you do not observe the sabbath as a sabbath you will not see the Father."
    28 Jesus said, "I took my stand in the midst of the world, and in flesh I appeared to them. I found them all drunk, and I did not find any of them thirsty. My soul ached for the children of humanity, because they are blind in their hearts and do not see, for they came into the world empty, and they also seek to depart from the world empty.
    But meanwhile they are drunk. When they shake off their wine, then they will change their ways."
    29 Jesus said, "If the flesh came into being because of spirit, that is a marvel, but if spirit came into being because of the body, that is a marvel of marvels.
    Yet I marvel at how this great wealth has come to dwell in this poverty."
    30 Jesus said, "Where there are three deities, they are divine. Where there are two or one, I am with that one."
    31 Jesus said, "No prophet is welcome on his home turf; doctors don't cure those who know them."
    32 Jesus said, "A city built on a high hill and fortified cannot fall, nor can it be hidden."

    Copyright 1992, 1994 by Polebridge Press. Used with permission. All rights reserved.
    Go Back to Thomas Homepage

    may your journey be graceful,
    Last edited by a moderator: May 31, 2007
  12. Sep 8, 2003 #11
    Sin, is there such a thing? Did jesus act unconciously during his human life at some point would be a better question and during this unconscious act did he cross the line which he recognized within himself. Did he ever attack someone because they had something which he wanted(could be anything).

    Jesus never said love me more than your parents. Nada no way no how. I do not believe he even goaded anyone to follow him. If they did follow him it was because he spoke words that awakened something in themselves that they did not know exisisted. Maybe they saw something they did not concieve was possible and wanted to know how.

    There is only one commandment anyway - love the lord thy god - If you do that how can you do anything else wrong? Would you kill? Would you steal. Would you not honnor you father and mother? etc.... It is only when the realization of the first is not fully that the rest comes into play and for being human it would seem it is a requirement for much of our existence.

    Another interpretation of love of god, can be the understanding of god. The understanding generates the action.
  13. Sep 8, 2003 #12
    my understanding is that jesus didn't command to love god but to love thy neighbor as thyself. but this is really splitting hairs for the love for all is what both quotes are after, after all.

    may your journey be graceful,
  14. Sep 8, 2003 #13


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    One way of looking at this is to say that the Pharisees feared god, when Jesus wanted them to love Him... and other peoples.
  15. Sep 10, 2003 #14

    Careful there Saint. The original sin was Adam and Eve defining what they thought the definition of sin SHOULD include...and by their definition it did not include disobeying God...thus they ate.

    Throughout the Bible you will find many many cases of what happens when man decides to set hisown judgement of what is right and wrong over that of God. Adam and Eve, the Flood, Moses, and many more...all the way up to Jesus. Jesus taught of the Jews and how they had gotten so wrapped up in traditions that they basically quit listening to God....they put their judgement of what was right and wrong over that of God.

    We should not be considering what we think sin SHOULD include but read and understand what sin is...and not by our definitions but that of God's.

    As far as the Pharisees comments
    The Pharisees had gotten so wrapped up in the Torah that they quit listening to God. they feared God yes but they forgot who God was and that God was love. And all God ever wanted was for us to love Him, as FZ had mentioned.
  16. Sep 10, 2003 #15
    "Careful there Saint. The original sin was Adam and Eve defining what they thought the definition of sin SHOULD include...and by their definition it did not include disobeying God...thus they ate."

    what if it were possible to know exactly what God's will is? would we obey it or disobey it? what if God told you to become a janitor? would you do it for It? this goes back to free will. it seems to me that the "sin" of adam and eve was to exercise free will in a way that contradicted God's will for them, at least, according to Genesis. would you rather have free will and be sinful or obey God? now that IS an oversimplification and i don't think those are the only two choices. i believe it possible that an agreement was made between your true self and God before you were born as to what your life would be like; it's just that people tend to break their contract. i have apparently found out what my contracted role was from my teachers and it IS in alignment with what i want out of life; it seems perfect for me, so i try to carry out that contract. in doing so, i feel much more fullfilled and satisfied with life though, in a sense, i have given up free will to obey God. in this case, free will is in alignment with God's will, so it works out...

    may your journey be graceful,
  17. Sep 10, 2003 #16


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    If God actually told me to be a janitor, I'd respond with only one question. Where is the mop?

    Indeed if god would clearly communicate his will, not force it, simply state it so that all men could understand, then I believe he would have oh, say 99.9% of the population as devoted followers. The rest would be pure idiots, or those who for some reason or another did not agree with his will.

    But this is not the case.

    And does anyone ever wonder what you would be today, had Adam and Eve not commited the original sin? Would you even exist? Would you be you?

    How could adam and eve have figured out how to have sex to reproduce, if they had no idea what they looked like? Would god have helped them with this? Now thats kinky.

    As far as jesus sinning, I would guess it would depend on your perspective. For example, from a different religions pov, can't think of one from jesus's time, but something like Islam, Jesus is a sinner simply because he did not believe in they Islamic way.

    I know islam wasn't around at jesus's time, just an example.
  18. Sep 10, 2003 #17
    "Indeed if god would clearly communicate his will, not force it, simply state it so that all men could understand, then I believe he would have oh, say 99.9% of the population as devoted followers. The rest would be pure idiots, or those who for some reason or another did not agree with his will.

    But this is not the case."

    i, respectfully, disagree that this is not the case.

    let me try to provide you with evidence, though i would be skeptical that my evidence is ample evidence:



    my question is precisely where is the mop! i believe i have obtained God's will for my life but i utterly cannot see how to acheive the goal laid out for me; i cannot see where the mop it at all. i've been trying to reach my teachers and ask them this, essentially, but they've been hard to reach as of late...

    may your journey be graceful,
  19. Sep 10, 2003 #18
    All way is gods way becuase out of god is all of creation so what cannot be gods way. To understand gods way we must understand ourselves and that which is around us. It is not clear sometimes sometimes many times and the world seems clouded, but is it clouded or are we squinting? The process to truth is a continual one, a journey that never ends and when we can no longer say the word relative, you will have your answer and will not be able to speak it. Then adam and eve will happen again. This is the cycle of life.
  20. Sep 10, 2003 #19

    how do you obtain direction from God? is it through the bible or do you have a more direct connection?

    you propose that one higher truth is that the journey never ends and i would tend to agree with that; there seems to be no end in sight. there's always the question of the reliability of the source of information. what constitutes proof that a source is reliable?

    may your journey be graceful,
  21. Sep 10, 2003 #20
    There is only one place where anything can be reliable and only there it will not be in any book or out of the words of any mouth. It will exist in one place and one place alone. It cannot be communicated and yet sometimes it is. There is no choice and a choice is made in all moments. These are my words. I need no book because they drop out of the air.
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