Ice Age Aborigines Made It To America?

[Mammo]

There is a surprisingly strong amount of evidence to support this idea. http://www.cenpat.edu.ar/diversidad/PDFsRolo/12-Neves et al. 2004.pdf. I've just read an amazing book linked to this speculation, see attachments. The only given theory as to how they could have made it is by boat. I beg to differ.

 

[Mammo]

An article link to the subject is BBC article. A TV documentary on the fascinating subject is http://www.66stage.com/documentaries.php?pl=veo&url=v8599875xfrFqs3g

 

[mgb_phys]

There's a similair theory that eastern Canada was reached by europeans during the ice age.

 

[Mammo]

There's a similair theory that eastern Canada was reached by europeans during the ice age.

Yes, I've read about the Solutrean Hypothesis, although that was speculated to be only around 15,000 years ago. The Aboriginal connection goes back to 40,000 years ago with first class scientific evidence. Footprints of First Americans. More information can be found at Dr Silvia Gonzalez.

 

[Mammo]

Is this a 'touchy' subject for Americans? Or is it simply too improbable?

 

[Andre]

It's indeed very touchy. There is a powerful movement that insists that the Clovis people were the first to enter into America via the Beringia landbridge some 11,000 carbon dated ago, where they started to sent the naive megafauna to the eternal hunting fields (Martin hypothesis), as they were not aware of the danger of man. That's the essential part. So if there were man earlier than that, they must have coexisted with the megafauna and cancelling out the naive element of the hypothesis.

 

[Mammo]

It's indeed very touchy. There is a powerful movement that insists that the Clovis people were the first to enter into America via the Beringia landbridge some 11,000 carbon dated ago, where they started to sent the naive megafauna to the eternal hunting fields (Martin hypothesis), as they were not aware of the danger of man. That's the essential part. So if there were man earlier than that, they must have coexisted with the megafauna and cancelling out the naive element of the hypothesis.

Thanks for that input, Andre. Dr Silvia Gonzalez believes that the original inhabitants were wiped out by the new arrivals with their advanced technology. They simply couldn't compete. Tough world back then. Note that the Holocene extinction event started 30,000 years ago in the Pacific islands. Wikipedia Holocene extinction. The evidence is even more convincing in Wikipedia Quarternary extinction. Notice the absence of South America in the graphs of human arrival vs extinction. There is clearly a case to be made for a temporary land bridge due to an uplift of the crust being the reason for human arrival to Australia and South America around 40,000 years ago in my opinion. Although the ideas may be painful to some, this shouldn't be used as an excuse to inhibit the advancement of science, which benefits us all in the long run.

 

[baywax]

There is always the chance that a migration of Neaderthal or other people came from europe over ice sheets covering the north Atlantic. This is the theory for the appearance of the clovis tools in New England... dating around 17,000 bp... but for the 40,000 year old migration there is plenty of evidence for advancing and receding ice sheets providing access to North America along the north Atlantic via Greenland.

North Atlantic Ice Sheet Fluctuations 10,000–70,000 Yr Ago as Inferred from Deposits on the Reykjanes Ridge, Southeast of Greenland*1


Klas S. Lackschewitzb, a, Karl-Heinz Baumannc, Bettina Gehrked, Hans-Joachim Wallrabe-Adamsb, Jörn Thiedee, b, Georges Bonanif, Rudolf Endlerg, Helmut Erlenkeuserh and Jan Heinemeieri

a Institute of Geology and Palaeontology, University of Kiel, Olshausenstraße 40, 24098, Kiel, Germany

b GEOMAR Research Center for Marine Geosciences, Wischhofstraße 1-3, D-24148, Kiel, Germany

c FB Geosciences, University of Bremen, Postfach 330440, D-28334, Bremen, Germany

d Brandensteinstrasse 29, 30519, Hannover, Germany

e Alfred Wegener Institute, Postfach 120161, 27515, Bremerhaven, Germany

f ETH Zürich, Institut für Mittelenergiephysik, Hönggerberg, CH-8093, Zürich, Switzerland

g Institute for Baltic Research, Seestraße 15, D-18119, Warnemünde, Germany

h Leibniz Laboratory for Radiometric Dating and Stable Isotope Research, University of Kiel, Max-Eyth-Str. 11, D-24098, Kiel, Germany

i Institute of Physics and Astronomy, AMS14C Dating Laboratory, University of Aarhus, DK-8000, Aarhus C, DenmarkReceived 15 January 1997. Available online 17 April 2002. Abstract

Marine records from the Reykjanes Ridge indicate ice sheet variations and abrupt climate changes. One of these records, ice-rafted detritus (IRD), serves as a proxy for iceberg discharges that probably indicates ice sheet fluctuations. The IRD records suggest that iceberg discharge 68,000–10,000 yr B.P. happened more frequently than the 7000- to 10,000-yr spacing of the Heinrich events. An IRD peak 67,000 to 63,000 yr B.P. further suggests that the Middle Weichselian glaciation started about 12,000 yr earlier in the North Atlantic than in the Norwegian Sea. Several later IRD events, in contrast, correlate with Norwegian Sea IRD-rich layers and imply coeval ice sheet advances in the North Atlantic and the Norwegian Sea. Coccoliths in a core from the Reykjanes Ridge show distinct peaks in species that record occasional inflow of warm surface water during the last glaciation, as previously reported from the eastern Labrador Sea. High abundances of coccoliths, together with a decrease ofNeogloboquadrina pachydermasin. and relatively low δ18O values, imply enhanced advection of the North Atlantic Current 69,000–67,000 yr B.P., 56,000–54,000 yr B.P., 35,000–33,000 yr B.P., and 26,000–23,000 yr B.P. This advection provided a regional moisture source for extension of ice sheets onto the shelf. In contrast, most of the IRD events are characterized by cold polar surface water masses indicating rapid variations in ocean surface conditions.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WPN-45M31BH-1T&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=e952f0dab8ea51bfaaff981684be10ed

Andre may be able to correct my thinking here!

But, to continue... there were upper paleolithic peoples in northern europe during the time... 40,000 years ago... who may have made their way to North America via the ice sheets that sometimes gripped the northern Atlantic...

Human presence in the European Arctic nearly 40,000 years ago

Pavel Pavlov1,2, John Inge Svendsen2,3 and Svein Indrelid4

Institute of Language, Literature and History, Komi Scientific Center, Russian Academy of Sciences, Ural Division, Kommunisticheskaya st. 26, 167000, Syktyvkar, Komi Republic, Russia
Centre for Studies of the Environment and Resources, University of Bergen, Høyteknologisenteret (HIB), N-5020 Bergen, Norway
Bergen Museum, University of Bergen, Harald Hårfagresgt.1, N-5020 Bergen, Norway
These authors contributed equally to the work
Correspondence to: John Inge Svendsen2,3 Correspondence and requests for materials should be addressed to J.I.S. (e-mail: Email: john.svendsen@smr.uib.no).The transition from the Middle to the Upper Palaeolithic, approximately 40,000–35,000 radiocarbon years ago, marks a turning point in the history of human evolution in Europe. Many changes in the archaeological and fossil record at this time have been associated with the appearance of anatomically modern humans1, 2. Before this transition, the Neanderthals roamed the continent, but their remains have not been found in the northernmost part of Eurasia. It is generally believed that this vast region was not colonized by humans until the final stage of the last Ice Age some 13,000–14,000 years ago3, 4. Here we report the discovery of traces of human occupation nearly 40,000 years old at Mamontovaya Kurya, a Palaeolithic site situated in the European part of the Russian Arctic. At this site we have uncovered stone artefacts, animal bones and a mammoth tusk with human-made marks from strata covered by thick Quaternary deposits. This is the oldest documented evidence for human presence at this high latitude; it implies that either the Neanderthals expanded much further north than previously thought or that modern humans were present in the Arctic only a few thousand years after their first appearance in Europe.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v413/n6851/abs/413064a0.html

 

[baywax]

On a side note there is proof that Neanderthals roamed the planet rather than staying in one particular area for life.

ScienceDaily (Feb. 15, 2008) — A 40,000-year-old tooth has provided scientists with the first direct evidence that Neanderthals moved from place to place during their lifetimes. In a collaborative project involving researchers from the Germany, the United Kingdom, and Greece, Professor Michael Richards of the Max Planck institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig, Germany and Durham University, UK, and his team used laser technology to collect microscopic particles of enamel from the tooth. By analysing strontium isotope ratios in the enamel - strontium is a naturally occurring metal ingested into the body through food and water - the scientists were able to uncover geological information showing where the Neanderthal had been living when the tooth was formed.

The tooth, a third molar, was formed when the Neanderthal was aged between seven and nine. It was recovered in a coastal limestone cave in Lakonis, in Southern Greece, during an excavation directed by Dr Eleni Panagopoulou of the Ephoreia of Paleoanthropology and Speleology (Greek Ministry of Culture). The strontium isotope readings, however, indicated that the enamel formed while the Neanderthal lived in a region made up of older volcanic bedrock. The findings could help answer a long-standing debate about the mobility of the now extinct Neanderthal species.

Some researchers argue that Neanderthals stayed in one small area for most of their lives; others claim their movements were more substantial and they moved over long distances; and others say they only moved within a limited area, perhaps on a seasonal basis to access different food sources.

http://chem11.proboards2.com/index.cgi?board=UFO&action=print&thread=398

Incidently, this link I've given you is the most fascinating collection of "digging in the dirt" reports I've ever seen. Check out the other stories!

 

[baywax]

On a side note there is proof that Neanderthals roamed the planet rather than staying in one particular area for life.

ScienceDaily (Feb. 15, 2008) — A 40,000-year-old tooth has provided scientists with the first direct evidence that Neanderthals moved from place to place during their lifetimes. In a collaborative project involving researchers from the Germany, the United Kingdom, and Greece, Professor Michael Richards of the Max Planck institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig, Germany and Durham University, UK, and his team used laser technology to collect microscopic particles of enamel from the tooth. By analysing strontium isotope ratios in the enamel - strontium is a naturally occurring metal ingested into the body through food and water - the scientists were able to uncover geological information showing where the Neanderthal had been living when the tooth was formed.

The tooth, a third molar, was formed when the Neanderthal was aged between seven and nine. It was recovered in a coastal limestone cave in Lakonis, in Southern Greece, during an excavation directed by Dr Eleni Panagopoulou of the Ephoreia of Paleoanthropology and Speleology (Greek Ministry of Culture). The strontium isotope readings, however, indicated that the enamel formed while the Neanderthal lived in a region made up of older volcanic bedrock. The findings could help answer a long-standing debate about the mobility of the now extinct Neanderthal species.

Some researchers argue that Neanderthals stayed in one small area for most of their lives; others claim their movements were more substantial and they moved over long distances; and others say they only moved within a limited area, perhaps on a seasonal basis to access different food sources.

http://chem11.proboards2.com/index.cgi?board=UFO&action=print&thread=398

Incidentally, this link I've given you is the most fascinating collection of "digging in the dirt" reports I've ever seen. Check out the other stories!

 

[Andre]

The idea of a European ancestor (Solutrean culture) for the Clovis has been entertained before. There are several problems though

 

[Mammo]

There is always the chance that a migration of Neaderthal or other people came from europe over ice sheets covering the north Atlantic. This is the theory for the appearance of the clovis tools in New England... dating around 17,000 bp... but for the 40,000 year old migration there is plenty of evidence for advancing and receding ice sheets providing access to North America along the north Atlantic via Greenland.

Firstly, fantastic report links Baywax, nice find for sure. The above is potentially possible, but the skeletal evidence I have given at the beginning points to a South-East Asian/Australasian origin. Maybe it was both?

The interesting report about additional Ice-Rafted Debris found in layers just off South-East Greenland reminded me of another thread. A periodic increase of the North Atlantic current is mentioned, which seems to fit perfectly with an earlier discussion. The ice-berg discharge could be limited to north-eastern Greenland perhaps, due to the Gulf Stream reaching new untouched ice flows.

Edit - and now I've just seen the 'digging in the dirt'! I love this kind of stuff! Here's a sciencemag article which shows just how strange and complex the New World migration appears to be article.

Edit - and now I've just uncovered evidence of a parent massive body within the solar system! Meteorites may be remnants of destroyed dwarf planet

 

[baywax]

The idea of a European ancestor (Solutrean culture) for the Clovis has been entertained before. There are several problems though

Andre, I gave an article specific to the 40,000 year bp time period in an attempt to show a possible Neanderthal or Cromagnon migration during that time. But, I wasn't sure about the source there

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...ff981684be10ed

The idea of the Solutrean culture migrating to New England either floating on an ice sheet or walking across one is related to the period 17,000 ybp. The same idea is applied here with another 23,000 years added to the date.!

 

[baywax]

Mammo said

The above is potentially possible, but the skeletal evidence I have given at the beginning points to a South-East Asian/Australasian origin. Maybe it was both?

Good point. I've reluctantly excavated skeletal remains up and down the BC coast and there have been asian features pointed out in these remains ranging between 2000 - 6000 years old (approx.) But we are limited to the artifacts and evidence of human tools and their work when it comes to finding out who predominantly occupied the North West or North North West of North America.

Here's a great synopsis of some of the earliest finds in this area.

Human Habitation in North America

The Bluefish caves in the Yukon contain evidence of migration and habitation by peoples from Asia to North America. Butchered mammoth bones, microblades with a wedge-shaped core, and trimming flakes of human manufacture were found by archaeologists Jacques Cinq-mars and William Irving.

Unfortunately, Earth shifts and geological disturbances have caused the site to contain no original cultural context. The significant element of this site was the discovery of a group of excavated bones, which were identified as horse remains. Horses were extinct from North America by the end of the late Ice Age. The Bluefish caves were located in a dry plain during glaciation, but were submerged 10,000 years ago, as part of the thaw that flooded Berginia.

The horse bones were found next to human-manufactured stone tools, and the side-by-side placement of the two artefacts provide a date for the stone tools and the site (more than 10,000 years ago). Excavation continued and bone collagen from several animal fragments were discovered and dated at 15,000 to 12,000 years ago. The Bluefish cave site is significant not only because of the artefact dates, but because of the culture associated with the stone technology; the flaked tool technology excavated at the site was similar to tools of the Dyukhtai culture of Siberia.

Three archaeological sites in Alberta support the theory of a migration route through an Alberta corridor. Stone scrapers and choppers have been discovered at sites in Grimshaw, Bow River, and in Lethbridge. These stone tools were found under glacial sand and gravel are believed to be pre-glacial and therefore indicate humans occupied the area 20,000 to 40,000 years ago. The verification of the early dates, however, is dependent upon geological interpretation.

http://www.ucalgary.ca/applied_history/tutor/firstnations/habitation.html

So we're seeing that a group of the Bluefish people of 15,000 years ago are using similar tools to the Dyukhtai culture of Siberia. But we also have tools showing up out in the prairies that pre-date the Bluefish Caves by up to 25,000 years.

The idea that some people in Northern France, 40,000 bp were hunting or on a fishing expedition or whaling, perhaps becoming stranded on a large cruise-liner of ice and traveling with a current to North America, is not so hard to believe.

How would the climate have been for this troupe of travelers back then?

 

[Andre]

Then of course there is the [URL="https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/when-did-mitochondria-evolve/"]mitochondrial DNA anthropological research[/url], a rich domain of suppositions.

 

[Mammo]

Wikipedia suggests that mankind was sailing from island to island during the last ice age! There's no evidence of boat use from this time, let alone the sophistication of rigging and masts.

The first inhabitants of the Archipelago arrived around 33,000 years ago after sailing from what is now Papua New Guinea or via an uplift of the crust creating a temporary land bridge. Later arrivals included the Lapita people.

Wikipedia Holocene Extinction See the Pacific including Hawaii section. Also check out the originator of the Australasian connection with the first American inhabitants Wikipedia Paul Rivet.