IF God could actually create miracles

  • Thread starter Mattius_
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  • #1
Mattius_
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If God...

If God had proven himself to you by performing a ample amount of miracles...

Would you bow down?


A stupid question for me, OFCOURSE I WOULD... But i would just like to know if anyone would still reject a higher being?

Ofcourse no prejudice here, im just curious...
 
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Answers and Replies

  • #2
Iacchus32
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The only problem with miracles is that they encourage people to look "outwardly," in a materialistic sense, rather than seek the "spirit of God," which is within. In which case people haven't really accepted anything, as it rarely involves any "meaningful" change from within. Which is tantamount to "externalized worship," and is a form of idolatry really.
 
  • #3
Originally posted by Mattius_
If God...

If God had proven himself to you by performing a ample amount of miracles...

Would you bow down?


A stupid question for me, OFCOURSE I WOULD... But i would just like to know if anyone would still reject a higher being?

Ofcourse no prejudice here, im just curious...
Why would you bow to anyone or anything? Seems like anyone who wants to be worshipped is by default not worthy of worship.
Also, miracles are frigging card tricks on a bigger scale.
 
  • #4
phoenixthoth
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i would definitely not bow to anyone's wishes if they didn't seem wise to me. i wouldn't care if this person claimed to be infinitely wise for my life path. what would constitute proof of omniscience and infinite wisdom?? could you ever be sure you're dealing with God and not some impostor?

cheers,
phoenix

ps: what God "tells me" is not too far off from what i desire anyways...
 
  • #5
phoenixthoth
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"Why would you bow to anyone or anything? Seems like anyone who wants to be worshipped is by default not worthy of worship.
Also, miracles are frigging card tricks on a bigger scale."

i fully agree. i don't have any evidence that God desires to be worshipped. i do have evidence that other HUMANS want you to worship God, humans such as jesus. worship is almost literally mental masturbation (for God is partly within us) and it only serves the worshipper, to put it bluntly. btw, there's NOTHING wrong with masturbation and i'm not placing a judgement on worship.

i definitely agree that miracles are for lessor mortals who can't see the evidence all around them that there is a God. i consider EVERYTHING to be a miracle. it's a miracle that i can communicate with you, from a certain point of view. two thousand years ago, they would have never dreamed it possible. jesus' flaw was that he went around performing miracles; you have to consider the credibility of the witness, then, when considering whether or not the miracle was a bona fide act of God. but, again, i believe everything is an act of God, there are no particular miracles. just things we can't explain in three dimensional terms with current scientific knowledge.

may your journey be graceful,
phoenix
 
  • #6
i'm very atheist, but if such a thing happened i would not so much bow down as shake his hand, if god existed and proved this to me i would think 'well, was pretty wrong about that', but what an entity! not just someone you meet walking down the street, the Creator of everything! the absolute architect, mathematician, artist, philospher, yeah it's worth a bow.
 
  • #7
phoenixthoth
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i would bow out of respect but i wouldn't serve it precisely unless serving it meant also serving myself. i hate admitting that, but it is the truth. what i want, ideally, is for God to give me advice on how to live and then let me decide if i want to take the advice. i believe i have found a way to get this advice and i've posted it elsewhere.

cheers,
phoenix
 
  • #8
Originally posted by phoenixthoth
"Why would you bow to anyone or anything? Seems like anyone who wants to be worshipped is by default not worthy of worship.
Also, miracles are frigging card tricks on a bigger scale."

i fully agree. i don't have any evidence that God desires to be worshipped. i do have evidence that other HUMANS want you to worship God, humans such as jesus. worship is almost literally mental masturbation (for God is partly within us) and it only serves the worshipper, to put it bluntly. btw, there's NOTHING wrong with masturbation and i'm not placing a judgement on worship.

i definitely agree that miracles are for lessor mortals who can't see the evidence all around them that there is a God. i consider EVERYTHING to be a miracle. it's a miracle that i can communicate with you, from a certain point of view. two thousand years ago, they would have never dreamed it possible. jesus' flaw was that he went around performing miracles; you have to consider the credibility of the witness, then, when considering whether or not the miracle was a bona fide act of God. but, again, i believe everything is an act of God, there are no particular miracles. just things we can't explain in three dimensional terms with current scientific knowledge.

may your journey be graceful,
phoenix
There is no evidence for a god or gods, especially not 'everything around us'.
 
  • #9
Originally posted by Mattius_
If God had proven himself to you by performing a ample amount of miracles...
Such as, creating a huge, completely mysterious, perfectly ordered universe, out of nothing?

That sounds like a miracle to me.
Would you bow down?
My reaction would depend on the nature of his miracle. If all he can pull off is this universe, full of pain, suffering, injustice, and death, then I see no reason to bow down. But if he's capable of more, then I may react differently.
 
  • #10
Originally posted by Zero
There is no evidence for a god or gods, especially not 'everything around us'.
Sounds like something a god would say. So I guess there is evidence for at least one god around you - yourself!
 
  • #11
Originally posted by amadeus
Sounds like something a god would say. So I guess there is evidence for at least one god around you - yourself!
You been talking to my girlfriends again?
 
  • #12
phoenixthoth
1,605
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"There is no evidence for a god or gods, especially not 'everything around us'."

then, in your opinion, where did the universe come from? did it come from nowhere for no reason? while this IS possible, it IS also possible that it was created by God for some reason.

cheers,
phoenix
 
  • #13
The Grimmus
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yes ofcourse i dont think anyone who dosent belive in god wouldent unless they hold some grudge agianst him, seeing is beliving
 
  • #14
phoenixthoth
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precisely!

seeing IS believing. i was a STRONG skeptic of God; i was agnostic for about ten years after growing up chrisitian. when i examined my beliefs, i couldn't see any reason at all to believe in God; therefore, i abandonded my beliefs. but now i believe i have found and posted tools for seeing God. at least, this is what has WORKED for me.

the two threads are these:
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5574

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5512

the first link's goal is to acheive a working connection with God while the second is for interpreting messages received from God.

do you "see" what i "see"?

may your journey be graceful,
phoenix
 
  • #15
Wasper
6
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I refuse to bow to anyone , especially "God." No miracle he could do would get me to volunteerly bow to him. I don't care if he saves the starving children of Ethiopia , perminately cease the pain and suffering of humans, prevent wars from ever happening again .. ect.

The best miracle he could've done was to not create humans , put us here , abandon us , and expect us to fend for ourselves ... a little late for him to perform his so call miracles now eh?
He could care less if we suffer or not. So why should we bow to him? We don't owe him anything and he owes us everything , for we did not ask , want , or chosed to be created and then put into these bodies and in these lives. He should have put us in lives of luxury. Instead we are put in lives of misery , pain , stress , work and hardache , and in the end the things we painstakingly worked hard for is irrelevant as we fall victim to mortality. Sure there are "good" times , but are they really worth it? Is it really worth it to go about most of our lives facing the cons most of the time to only experience the pros of life for a few moments and only to end up dying and loosing the good experiences?

I'd rather believe that God / Gods doesn't exist for if one does exist he wouldn't be the god most people portrayed him to be.
 
  • #16
phoenixthoth
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"Instead we are put in lives of misery , pain , stress , work and hardache , and in the end the things we painstakingly worked hard for is irrelevant as we fall victim to mortality."

this is rather presumptive, that life neccessarily has to come with suffering. perhaps you should adopt a buddhist approach in which suffering is seen as resulting from DESIRE and, therefore, desires need to be reigned in and controled so as to control suffering. just a thought. from this perspective, suffering need not go hand in hand with life itself. futhermore, i have heard that this is the only planet in which there is so much suffering because it was chosen that droids and beings to coexist on this planet; on others, assuming sources are correct, planets are either all droids or all beings and there is no suffering, no conflict. just as there is no evident suffering in a hive of bees. some planets, according to sources, operate like a hive of bees and there is no suffering. i believe this planet was an experiment gone arwy.

i would also tend to think that God doesn't exist rather than have one that is currently portrayed exist. however, i believe the nature of God is 180 degrees opposite what it is portrayed as, though i have skant evidence for this believe, this almost assumption.

cheers,
phoenix
 
  • #17
Mattius_
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I guess I should clarify on a couple things.

When I said
by performing a ample amount of miracles...

Ample meant 'sufficient to convince YOU that God exists'

I didnt ask for real-time examples and how they did not suffice YOUR tests for acceptance, I merely meant 100% proof of existence to YOU.

Secondly, when I said "bow down", I meant 'Give complete respect for, and/or devotion to'

I knew I had made that statement to vague but was too tired to care.

Sorry to be so particular, but that is just how philosophy needs to be sometimes.

Now, to get into the debate:


Why would you bow to anyone or anything? Seems like anyone who wants to be worshipped is by default not worthy of worship.

This philosophy would work very well if God himself/herself/Itself had accepted it, but if his/her/it's ideal were different than yours, and did require you to 'give complete respect for, and/or devotion to' ; To be blunt, I find it incredibly stupid of the individual to oppose respecting/devoting a omnipotent body.

Also, miracles are frigging card tricks on a bigger scale.

Your definition of a miracle and my definition of a miracle are very different.

What if our universe stopped following the laws of physics? This would be a miracle to me.

It would make me a believer in God for the following reason.

The odds that I have formulated are highly in favor of the omnipotent body rather than probability landing on universe collapse.

In other words,the probability of the universe to stop following logic (aka the laws of physics) are greatly less than the probability of an existence of a omnipotent force.(In my subjective opinion.)

So, statistically, It would benefit the individual to link near or equal infinite odds with miracles with God.

Next, some of you said that you would only 'bow down' if God's ideals matched yours.

If it were me, I would do and think anything God wanted me to. After all, when he/she/it programmed humans, he encouraged self-betterment and survival, which is a trait that all of us share.

To me, maintaining my own ideals in opposition of God's would be foolish because it would be detrimental to my well being.(in my subjective opinion)
 
  • #18
phoenixthoth
1,605
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would i act in accordance with God's will? YES.

would i neccessarily LIKE IT? NO!

would i feel like i had free will? NO!

do i really need free will if i'm already maximizing my output in accordance with God's will? NO!

i want to find the river called God's will and flow with it rather than oppose it anymore. opposing an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent being who people think is infinitely wise seems to be an utter waste of energy and just an experiment in the exercise of free will. i now believe i have explored free will enough and now i want some direction in life. i feel like God has told me to become a janitor but i don't know where the mop is!

may your journey be graceful,
phoenix
 
  • #19
FZ+
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If the true god was a god that required me to bow down to him, then to hell with Him. If he required complete devotion, then to hell with that too. A god fickle and shallow enough to request the devotion of man is one that isn't worth worshipping, or trusting.

God would exist, but I wouldn't believe in Him.
 
  • #20
Mattius_
1
0
How far do your principals for FZ?

at what cost would you lose them?
 
  • #21
Mattius_
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PS. There should be a definitive answer...
 
  • #22
phoenixthoth
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"If the true god was a god that required me to bow down to him, then to hell with Him. If he required complete devotion, then to hell with that too. A god fickle and shallow enough to request the devotion of man is one that isn't worth worshipping, or trusting."

by "bow to him" do you mean bow out of respect like the easterners do or do you mean serve without questioning orders?

if the latter, then i say to hell with that as well.

if the former, i respectfully disagree: we should bow out of respect to a higher being and learn from it what we can.

god doesn't strike me as fickle at all. however, in primitive religion, such as christianity (no judgement is being placed on primitive culture on my part), he is portrayed as fickle and that you must bow to Him in the latter respect, to worship him. but i don't think God cares at all if you even believe in it, much less whether or not you worship it. i believe worship is almost literally mental masturbation (for God is partly within us) and that worship only serves the worshipper. however, i'm not judging masturbation; there's nothing WRONG, in my humble opinion, with those who wish to bow to God in the second respect for it seems like that precisely fills the void people have in their souls. what makes your way of filling that void better than someone else's way? it's their free will to sacrifice, after all...

but perhaps the point of worship is to seek answers and direction in life. it strikes me as unlikely that worship is the right way to go about this goal.

may your journey be graceful,
phoenix
 
  • #23
Iacchus32
2,313
1
Originally posted by Mattius_
This philosophy would work very well if God himself/herself/Itself had accepted it, but if his/her/it's ideal were different than yours, and did require you to 'give complete respect for, and/or devotion to' ; To be blunt, I find it incredibly stupid of the individual to oppose respecting/devoting a omnipotent body.
If God truly respected my free will, I don't think He would require that I "suck up" to Him. On the other hand, I would have no problem bowing to Him out of respect, as others have mentioned.
 
  • #24
Originally posted by phoenixthoth
"There is no evidence for a god or gods, especially not 'everything around us'."

then, in your opinion, where did the universe come from? did it come from nowhere for no reason? while this IS possible, it IS also possible that it was created by God for some reason.

cheers,
phoenix
Possible? Maybe...but my confusion arises because, in the absence of evidence, people not only claim that a creator is necessary, but also claim to know something about it(or them?) beyond that it created the universe. Invoking 'God' is a complete non-answer.
 
  • #25
phoenixthoth
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how is "maybe it is possible" an answer anyone should accept?

just curious.

phoenix
 
  • #26
hypnagogue
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I find this thread an amusing display of human hubris. We talk about God with such an abstract approach that we lose sight of the actual substance of the matter at hand. For instance, as I have explained in the religion forum, it's a commonly accepted idea that the following is a meaningless question: "Why did superadvanced, 10 billion year old Type IV alien civilization decide to go and do that?" It's meaningless to ask because we recognize that such a race would be so far advanced beyond us that it would totally escape our comprehension. Yet people commonly ask questions like "Why did God decide to go and do that?" as if they could possibly understand the rationale of a being that is by definition infinitely more advanced than they are.

Now there is a notion in this thread of people trying to maintain some sense of human dignity in the face of God. I hope I'm not coming off here as a religious zealot, because I'm anything but that. But come on people. You're saying if you came face to face with an infinitely loving being who is responsible for existence as we know it, you would look It calmly in the eye (figuratively) and ask, maybe, if It would like to go out for coffee some time? If you looked past the veil of abstraction in this discussion and considered what the actual experience would be like, how can you deny that you wouldn't just outright melt with awe and love? Think of the scene from the end of Dogma where Jay is confused and pissed off and wants answers, and then he simply looks into the eyes of God and collapses with a blissed look on his face. Better yet, think of the most awe-inspiring, love filled, inspirational, whatever moment of your life. Multiply that by infinity. Consider what that would be like.
 
  • #27
phoenixthoth
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your comments bring back seemingly distant memories of the exact types of experiences you're talking about.

in fact, it was only less than a month ago that i feel i made direct contacts and links with God and received messages from it, albeit brief, and i've already almost forgotten. maybe the fact that my account of my experience was deleted on another forum because it was considered, presumably, as invalid. i sought validation and replication in others when, in reality, that may be a waste of energy. people don't really seem to WANT to see God. i put in two months of concentrated effort, learning all i could, before i had any success and it wasn't easy. that's not to mention pondering the matter on and off for my whole life building up to those experiences.

so what now? what should i do if no one really wants to know if God exists? what if no one wants to try the experiments and prayers i've learned that work for me? is it time to give up and just focus on myself?

cheers,
phoenix
 
  • #28
hypnagogue
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phoenixthoth,

There is no unique, sure fire way to achieve that sort of experience (that has yet been discovered, at least). I don't dispute that your technique works for you, or that it could work for other people, but I doubt it will work for everyone. There is a saying, "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink." There is also a saying, "in that you seek me, you have already found me."

The crucial element in any person's spiritual journey, I think, is their own willingness. They must really yearn for it, and they must accept and practice at least the basic tenet of spirituality which is uniform across all traditions, which is to transcend the ego. That phrase is a bit nebulous, but (as I'm sure you know) it is hard to describe and direct, and it even seems (from personal experience at least) that the more detailed the explanation is the more likely the explanation will give a faulty impression of what it actually means. The only avenue beyond the ego lies firmly in the ego itself. Spiritual teachers are invaluable, but they can only point an individual toward the road; walking the road is ultimately up to that individual, which in turn depends on the individual's own personal makeup at the deepest of levels-- something that cannot be readily changed.

That having been said, I don't know how to answer your question. I think you are right that deep down some people simply don't care for the transcendent or spiritual experience-- their beliefs forbid it. Others may want it badly but go astray at some point in the process. Simple answer is, do what you think or feel is right. But I would say this, that it is futile to try to guide a flame that isn't lit. Whether you can ignite someone's flame for them is another question altogether.

(edit: grammar bad)
 
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  • #29
phoenixthoth
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thank you for your input. lots of things to consider.

i wouldn't put it as transcending the ego so much as owning the ego rather than letting it own you. i believe the self is comprised of three parts: the little self (ego), the higher self, and the true self (soul). while this division seems arbitrary, it seems to me like this division is right on with what i've experienced. the goal (the first goal) is to get in touch with all three parts and own them and not let them own you and to tap into the true self as the main source of wisdom and contact with God. the higher self can articulate what the true self silently "says." the higher self lives somewhere between the earthly ego and the true soul and it is the middle man, so to speak.

you're absolutely right: i can lead a horse to water but i can't make it drink. heck, i may even be able to make it drink, but i can't make it digest the water (God's message, aka the divine wine) fully or at all. i can't even expect everyone capable of swallowing God's pill.

part of God's pill is this: according to what i've learned, we all have a role to play in this universe, a role our soul signed up for before we were born. my role, according to sources, was to hold up a mirror for people to examine their beliefs and selves in. certainly not to be any kind of spiritual leader or guru, though something kinda like that from a certain perspective. i feel like God told me to become a janitor but i don't know where the mop is. my friend's answer was to seek other tools besides a mop, after asking if i wanted to become a janitor (to which i said yes). if i can't find a mop, then spit shine the floor, he said. be innovative and do what you think is right, as you said.

cheers,
phoenix
 
  • #30
Wasper
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0
Originally posted by phoenixthoth
this is rather presumptive, that life neccessarily has to come with suffering.

I never said it has to come with suffering , but the source of all the suffering is not caused by humans. It is caused by god , as he has put us in vulnerable bodies of necessities. We are required to eat , drink , be physically fit , ect in order to live , and the resources of these needs aren't provided to us , instead we have to work for them , thus this creates suffering. The suffering only exacerbates as the supply of these resources for our needs is limited.

perhaps you should adopt a buddhist approach in which suffering is seen as resulting from DESIRE and, therefore, desires need to be reigned in and controled so as to control suffering. just a thought. from this perspective, suffering need not go hand in hand with life itself.

Are you suggesting that the people in Eithopia are suffering because of their desire for food which is caused by their hunger? They cannot control their desire for food for they REQUIRE food in order to live! What about droughts which causes famine? What about plagues? People cannot control that. Not all suffering is a result of desires. And all the desires are rooted from one single desire , which is the desire to live.

According to you , god created EVERYTHING , therefore he is the one responsible for implementing desire into us , and thus is at fault for our desires which according to you results in our suffering.


futhermore, i have heard that this is the only planet in which there is so much suffering because it was chosen that droids and beings to coexist on this planet;

I am curious to where or who you have heard this.

So we just happen to be the unlucky individuals who have been thrown right into this planet of suffering?


planets are either all droids or all beings and there is no suffering, no conflict.

Wahh? We have only discovered 9 planets so far , where are you getting all of this?


just as there is no evident suffering in a hive of bees. some planets, according to sources, operate like a hive of bees and there is no suffering

You are again incorrect, there is suffering in a hive of bees because there is still necessities to the lives of bees. Bees have to work for food and thus suffers. If they don't get enough food they starve , and thus suffers even more.

I would like to know who these "sources" are. Let me guess it's from "God."



i believe this planet was an experiment gone arwy.

So we are now lab rats? We are apart of some elaborate experiment created by this being for his own selfish curiousity? After he is bored with us he then abandons us and forces us to fend for our selves.

We did not ask , want , or chose to be created , but he did it anyways , he then puts us into vulnerable bodies of necessities , which thus then created desires. He abandons us and we had to fend for ourselves. We owe him nothing , he owes us everything. We don't have to and shouldn't bow to him or kiss his ass.

When parents bring a child into existance , they owe that child everything. Since the child didn't have a choice , when the parents did. Parents are being selfish , and negligence when they abandon their kids. They "experimented" , and now it's time to take responsibility. I apply the same thing to God.
 
  • #31
phoenixthoth
1,605
2
"It is caused by god , as he has put us in vulnerable bodies of necessities."

you are simply wrong. suffering does not come from God. not at all. suffering comes from being human. learn to transcend your human limitations and your suffering will end. (that's a pill *i* need to swallow.)

may your journey be graceful,
phoenix
 
  • #32
Wasper
6
0
Not all suffering may not be directly caused by God , but by creating us he has planted the seed for it. If we did not exist , we would not suffer.

learn to transcend your human limitations and your suffering will end.

And who is responsible for our limitations? He not only created us , he created us with limitation , which only exacerbate our suffering.

Even if I "learn" to trascend my limitations suffering will continue , as things such as droughts , famine , disease , death of love ones , cannot be control and still occurs and thus suffering still exist. It is impossible to end suffering unless everything we want and need is met, but that can never happen , thus suffering will never and cannot end.
 
  • #33
phoenixthoth
1,605
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interesting.

by learning to transcend your limitations, the goal is to then teach the rest of the world, one person at a time, how to transcend their limitations. then things like famine, disease, etc, you will be just aware of but not make judgements about. what is the purpose of having emtions such as anger, fear, depression, etc? these are things that we suffer with, tools we use to experience suffering. how about dropping those tools and focusing on other "useful" emotions such as passion, love, bliss, peace, etc.

i find it highly unlikely that the only thing preventing you from being happy all the time is simply your own self and what you permit yourself to focus on. you CAN figure your way out of depression and madness. i have and i'm not any smarter than you. i just learned to be happy with what little i've got. i learned to ADAPT.

cheers,
phoenix
 
  • #34
Wasper
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then things like famine, disease, etc, you will be just aware of but not make judgements about.

What you're saying is absurd and impossible. How can we be aware of something and not judge it? You are constantly judging things even when you are not fully aware of the full picture.

So , in other words you are saying that we should die? We should not judge on why there is famine and just take things as it is? If we had done this we would not have survived as a species. If we had not done this we never would've had inventions and technology.

I take it that you believe in a democracy? Well in a democracy people have to constantly criticize the government , for it is not a democracy if we take the government for what it is. Have you not then , contradicted?

what is the purpose of having emtions such as anger, fear, depression, etc? these are things that we suffer with, tools we use to experience suffering.

I think the question you should ask is why we have them in the first place. Again , this is not our fault for we did not put these emotions into ourselves for it was "God." You seem to be denying the fact that "God" is responsible for these problems.

how about dropping those tools and focusing on other "useful" emotions such as passion, love, bliss, peace, etc.

If we drop them we would not survive. You seem to be following Jesus's teaching of "turning the other cheek" which is in my opinion flawed. You cannot simply live with passion , love , bliss and peace while others have anger , fear , sadness .. ect. Even let's say everyone in the world only have love , bliss , peace .. ect , we still would not survive as a species for having this we would forget our problems. Forgetting our problems will not alleviate our suffering nor will it resolve anything else.

you CAN figure your way out of depression and madness.

I am not depressed nor mad. From a logical point of view , I have a negative view of life. This view has stemmed from my observations of other people's life throughout history and my life.




i just learned to be happy with what little i've got.

That kind of attitude will get you no where. "Be happy with what you've got" Is one of the most ignorant and illogical phrases I have ever heard. It's more like forget your problems and give up. This is the kind of things people say to prevent you from achieving what you want. There will always be others who have it better than you do , but don't hate them , admire them , and figure out how they got there.

i learned to ADAPT.

You mean you learned to give up? You learned to stop questioning the world and life. More importantly you learned to stop learning.
 
  • #35
hypnagogue
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Originally posted by Wasper
That kind of attitude will get you no where. "Be happy with what you've got" Is one of the most ignorant and illogical phrases I have ever heard. It's more like forget your problems and give up. This is the kind of things people say to prevent you from achieving what you want. There will always be others who have it better than you do , but don't hate them , admire them , and figure out how they got there.

We can define two classes of problems in life: physical needs, which must be met for survival, and desires, which are irrelevant to survival. No one is suggesting that you stop eating, waste away and die. Rather the suggestion is to re-examine and reign in your desires.

Let's consider a very superficial but relevant example. If you predicate your self-worth on driving a nice car, you may break your back to try to make enough money to buy one, and you may not get there for a while. During this time you will be miserable because you will not appreciate what you have, rather you will be kicking yourself for what you don't have. But if you do enough soul searching and work on yourself, you may come to the conclusion that you don't need that car after all, and all this time you have been creating a miserable situation for yourself while you could have been happy. Who is to be more admired, the man who has broken his back to attain his goal of driving a nice car, or the man who has found value in his life that is not predicated on material worth?
 

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