Dismiss Notice
Join Physics Forums Today!
The friendliest, high quality science and math community on the planet! Everyone who loves science is here!

If God does exist

  1. May 28, 2005 #1
    I hope i put this in the right place.

    The uncertantity principle means there are things which we (humans) will never know. Yet it allows someone who knows all (God) to still know all. Basicaly, what I mean is that we can never know where the electron is, but God, given that he knows where the electron is, and its direction and speed, can tell by the way the particle shot at it is 'bounced' off in relationship to how it is shot the new direction, position, and speed.

    What I am trying to say is that when Einstein said 'God does not play dice' he was right (in the non-literal way he meant it). The uncertinity principle aplies only to those with limited knowledge, but not to those with unlimited knowledge. If the uncertinty princleple is true (which is what is currently accepted), it does not say there are things God does not know. Using this reasoning, it seems Einstein tries to prove quantum mechanics wrong were based on a faulty reasoning. If he had thought of this, would he have still tried to disprove quantum mechanics. Einstein tried to disprove quantum mechanics so that the universe would not realy off chance, yet the universe does not run off of chance, it only appears to to one who does not know everything.

    It is like the dice above mentioned. They appear to be thrown at chance, yet to one with the knowledge (and a realy big, realy fast computer :rofl: ), the chance can actualy be predicted, at least in theory.

    Now in this post, I take for granted God exist. Please do not agrue this for I take it from Einstein's belief that God does exist, and to think like Einstein, we must believe like Einstein. :smile:
  2. jcsd
  3. May 28, 2005 #2
    You're drawing too much from Einstein's beliefs. He never said that a God exists. What he did say he believes is that the harmony and nature of the world behave like a God but in no way having to do with religion.

    You should take your own advice then, seeing as you're telling us not to debate your opinion.

    I'm sure others would be happy to discuss this with you, but please... when you state an opinion, expect some debate. :)
  4. May 28, 2005 #3
    Not true. You may've heard the argument about measuring a particles
    position to greater accuracy means using smaller wavelength, which means
    higher frequency, so less accuracy in momentum, and vice versa. That's not
    really where it comes from. One can derive it mathematically, starting from
    the definition of standard deviation (what uncertainty actually means), and
    the definition of position and momentum operators, which come from the
    schrodinger equation.

    Anyway, the uncertainty principle actually applies to many things,
    position and momentum are simply the most widely known.
    According to current quantum theory, an electron doesn't have
    a definite position or momentum, ever.
  5. May 28, 2005 #4

    This is the exact conclusion which I have drawn concerning QM. I think of it like this.

    We cannot figure out the knoledge of everything everyplace in one moment of time, but if you already know the exact cords of every element of spacetime, you could then calculate its exact future's cords. Only God can know the exact Cords of every element of spacetime, and therefore can know everything, and can also calculate every even that will ever happen in the future. But that gets into the concept of "free-will" which I dont want to debate right here.
  6. Jun 1, 2005 #5
    Why think of free will at all? Sounds limiting to me.
  7. Jun 1, 2005 #6


    User Avatar
    Science Advisor
    Homework Helper

    i think this is in the wrong place. i suggest the epistemology forum.
  8. Jun 4, 2005 #7
    first, what is epistemology?

    second, what i am trying to do is express a thought i had, which never comes out the way you think it. Im not trying to make a debate, im just trying to show that when Einstein tried to disprove quantum mechanics because it meant the universe was based on chance, he did not think that the universe is not based on chance, but it only appears not based on chance to some greater being that knows how the universe started (the postions, speeds, directions, ect.) of all matter.

    just like those dice, the universe appears based on chance unless your really smart. And just concerning the dice, those mathmatics would take much brain power, so how much more would the universe take.

    Third, does two electrons in two different atoms that are very close together affect each others orbit.
  9. Jun 4, 2005 #8
    now this is what im saying that Einstein should have drawn, it does not disprove God (used in the meaning of a all knowing being). One might could say this actualy requires God (in the above meaning) so there is someone out there who actualy knows where everything is. And as for free will, I only want to ask you this, can you make yourself do something else than what you will do? :biggrin:
  10. Jun 21, 2005 #9
    I think Einstein believed there were hidden variables that caused the exact outcomes of quantum experiments. Perhaps the hidden variables are God.
    This would explain why physicists have so much trouble isolating them.
  11. Jun 23, 2005 #10
    I thought electrons were actually waveforms and not actual particles. Just that sometimes the 2 forms are interchangeable in the context of use.

    IMO, God is merely a concept of the human mind, used to explain what cannot be currently explained. Perhaps it's the HUMAN MIND that's God! For isn't reality and perception, or even CONSTRUCTION, of the human mind? But that's a topic for a different thread.
  12. Jun 24, 2005 #11
    Is that an oxymoron? (i.e. Free will is limiting) :confused:

    Last edited: Jun 24, 2005
  13. Aug 8, 2005 #12
    That's sort of a god of the gaps idea BUT if God does exist then you should be theortetically able to reduce everything down until you see his fingerprint.

    As a theist I'd be careful about making claims like that because it's not much different in principle from the "hidden variables" that caused thunder and lightning for ancient peoples. I think it's more likely to find the "fingerprint" in the realm of metaphysics than in physics.
  14. Aug 8, 2005 #13


    User Avatar
    Gold Member

    Right. So what you're doing is attempting to fit quantum mechanics into a classical framework. Your last sentence, about the really fast computer is the quintessential argument about a classical universe, that, in theory, one can predict the postion, motion and thus future of every particle.

    Quantum mechanics says *no*, not even in theory. QM says that chance is built into the very structure of the universe.

    You should read about Bell's Hidden Variables. The argument has always been posed "What if there are variables that we just don't know about? Variables that would explain these seemingly chance events, and make everything predictable again?"

    Bell shows that there cannot be any variables we haven't considered. In effect, he is showing that God cannot know more than we do about these events.
  15. Aug 16, 2005 #14
    If "God does not play dice," how does change occur, without the mechanism already set in place? Which is to say, things do not evolve, in-as-much-as they unfold ...
  16. Aug 16, 2005 #15


    User Avatar
    Staff Emeritus
    Gold Member
    Dearly Missed

    Not quite. The failure of experiments to satisfy the Bell inequalities rules out hidden variable theories with locality, that is, obeying relativity. Bohm's theory is a hidden variable theory that doesn't obey locality, and it isn't ruled out by the Bell inequality experiments.

    If you take the four dimensional spacetime continuum seriously, this is precisely what it asserts.
  17. Aug 17, 2005 #16
    If the hidden variables are God, I would envisage them being in control of the thunder and lightening, but just behaving very very predictably (once you know the rules) like they do everywhere and everywhen. This would create the illusion of deterministic causes without needing to consider any hidden variables. On closer examination this could be probabilistic causality with your hidden variables/God still in control. I'm not worried about sticking a God in the gaps just like poeple have always done. Thunder and lightning, fine that's God too.
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2005
  18. Aug 19, 2005 #17

    Les Sleeth

    User Avatar
    Gold Member

    Why assume God, if there is one, knows all? A point I've made before is that if God has brought about the universe, all logic indicates is that he/she/it is knowledgeable enough to pull of the universe and its contents, not that God is all knowing.

    I don't think that is why Einstein said "God does not play dice." First, it is generally accepted that Einstein was an atheist, or at least agnostic. His statement mostly reflected his belief that physical laws are invariable and not random, and likely had nothing to do with theology. To Einstein, as someone used to representing reality precisely with principles and mathematics, and who helped pioneer modern physics, uncertainty seems to have been a disturbing concept. A lot of other concepts were initially disturbing to pioneering physicists too--the expanding universe for instance. It just reflects how people in power tend to resist ideas that venture outside what's generally believed to be true at the time.

    True. However, I think quantum uncertainty is misapplied when it comes to some thinkers' claims that it undermines certainty in macro operations. We work with chemistry all the time, for example, and achieve exactly as we mean to even though quantum uncertainty is part of every bit of it. Quantum uncertainty doesn't appear to result in chance on the macro level, and therefore it wouldn't affect God's ability to create whether he/she/it knows where an electron is or not.
  19. Aug 29, 2005 #18


    User Avatar

    yes, but any being existing outside of our 4 dimentional space-time would, at least to us, seem to be a god. they would be aware of all events that ever happened, past of present and would be able to seemingly travel through time at will. it could perform surgery on you without tools, littlerally reach into your body and fix whatever the problem was.

    IF there were a god, it would know where every partical is going to be before it's there, he would not have to measure it, he would just know. it's a hard concept to grasp, but that's why we arent gods. we have to rely on what our insterments tell us is happening.
  20. Aug 29, 2005 #19


    User Avatar

    if you talk about free will and god in the same sentence you have to talk about a multiverse. if we really have free will then time can not be on a set path. Im not sure how free will is limiting, Id say without it we're much more limited.
  21. Aug 29, 2005 #20


    User Avatar

    god, if you remove any religious elements to the word, could be anything.
Share this great discussion with others via Reddit, Google+, Twitter, or Facebook