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IF God

  1. Sep 9, 2003 #1
    If God...

    If God had proven himself to you by performing a ample amount of miracles...

    Would you bow down?


    A stupid question for me, OFCOURSE I WOULD... But i would just like to know if anyone would still reject a higher being?

    Ofcourse no prejudice here, im just curious...
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2003
  2. jcsd
  3. Sep 10, 2003 #2
    The only problem with miracles is that they encourage people to look "outwardly," in a materialistic sense, rather than seek the "spirit of God," which is within. In which case people haven't really accepted anything, as it rarely involves any "meaningful" change from within. Which is tantamount to "externalized worship," and is a form of idolatry really.
     
  4. Sep 10, 2003 #3
    Why would you bow to anyone or anything? Seems like anyone who wants to be worshipped is by default not worthy of worship.
    Also, miracles are frigging card tricks on a bigger scale.
     
  5. Sep 10, 2003 #4
    i would definitely not bow to anyone's wishes if they didn't seem wise to me. i wouldn't care if this person claimed to be infinitely wise for my life path. what would constitute proof of omniscience and infinite wisdom?? could you ever be sure you're dealing with God and not some impostor?

    cheers,
    phoenix

    ps: what God "tells me" is not too far off from what i desire anyways...
     
  6. Sep 10, 2003 #5
    "Why would you bow to anyone or anything? Seems like anyone who wants to be worshipped is by default not worthy of worship.
    Also, miracles are frigging card tricks on a bigger scale."

    i fully agree. i don't have any evidence that God desires to be worshipped. i do have evidence that other HUMANS want you to worship God, humans such as jesus. worship is almost literally mental masturbation (for God is partly within us) and it only serves the worshipper, to put it bluntly. btw, there's NOTHING wrong with masturbation and i'm not placing a judgement on worship.

    i definitely agree that miracles are for lessor mortals who can't see the evidence all around them that there is a God. i consider EVERYTHING to be a miracle. it's a miracle that i can communicate with you, from a certain point of view. two thousand years ago, they would have never dreamed it possible. jesus' flaw was that he went around performing miracles; you have to consider the credibility of the witness, then, when considering whether or not the miracle was a bona fide act of God. but, again, i believe everything is an act of God, there are no particular miracles. just things we can't explain in three dimensional terms with current scientific knowledge.

    may your journey be graceful,
    phoenix
     
  7. Sep 10, 2003 #6
    i'm very atheist, but if such a thing happened i would not so much bow down as shake his hand, if god existed and proved this to me i would think 'well, was pretty wrong about that', but what an entity! not just someone you meet walking down the street, the Creator of everything! the absolute architect, mathematician, artist, philospher, yeah it's worth a bow.
     
  8. Sep 10, 2003 #7
    i would bow out of respect but i wouldn't serve it precisely unless serving it meant also serving myself. i hate admitting that, but it is the truth. what i want, ideally, is for God to give me advice on how to live and then let me decide if i want to take the advice. i believe i have found a way to get this advice and i've posted it elsewhere.

    cheers,
    phoenix
     
  9. Sep 10, 2003 #8
    There is no evidence for a god or gods, especially not 'everything around us'.
     
  10. Sep 10, 2003 #9
    Such as, creating a huge, completely mysterious, perfectly ordered universe, out of nothing?

    That sounds like a miracle to me.
    My reaction would depend on the nature of his miracle. If all he can pull off is this universe, full of pain, suffering, injustice, and death, then I see no reason to bow down. But if he's capable of more, then I may react differently.
     
  11. Sep 10, 2003 #10
    Sounds like something a god would say. So I guess there is evidence for at least one god around you - yourself!
     
  12. Sep 10, 2003 #11
    You been talking to my girlfriends again?
     
  13. Sep 10, 2003 #12
    "There is no evidence for a god or gods, especially not 'everything around us'."

    then, in your opinion, where did the universe come from? did it come from nowhere for no reason? while this IS possible, it IS also possible that it was created by God for some reason.

    cheers,
    phoenix
     
  14. Sep 10, 2003 #13
    yes ofcourse i dont think anyone who dosent belive in god wouldent unless they hold some grudge agianst him, seeing is beliving
     
  15. Sep 10, 2003 #14
    precisely!

    seeing IS believing. i was a STRONG skeptic of God; i was agnostic for about ten years after growing up chrisitian. when i examined my beliefs, i couldn't see any reason at all to believe in God; therefore, i abandonded my beliefs. but now i believe i have found and posted tools for seeing God. at least, this is what has WORKED for me.

    the two threads are these:
    https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5574

    https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5512

    the first link's goal is to acheive a working connection with God while the second is for interpreting messages received from God.

    do you "see" what i "see"?

    may your journey be graceful,
    phoenix
     
  16. Sep 10, 2003 #15
    I refuse to bow to anyone , especially "God." No miracle he could do would get me to volunteerly bow to him. I don't care if he saves the starving children of Ethiopia , perminately cease the pain and suffering of humans, prevent wars from ever happening again .. ect.

    The best miracle he could've done was to not create humans , put us here , abandon us , and expect us to fend for ourselves ... a little late for him to perform his so call miracles now eh?
    He could care less if we suffer or not. So why should we bow to him? We don't owe him anything and he owes us everything , for we did not ask , want , or chosed to be created and then put into these bodies and in these lives. He should have put us in lives of luxury. Instead we are put in lives of misery , pain , stress , work and hardache , and in the end the things we painstakingly worked hard for is irrelevant as we fall victim to mortality. Sure there are "good" times , but are they really worth it? Is it really worth it to go about most of our lives facing the cons most of the time to only experience the pros of life for a few moments and only to end up dying and loosing the good experiences?

    I'd rather believe that God / Gods doesn't exist for if one does exist he wouldn't be the god most people portrayed him to be.
     
  17. Sep 10, 2003 #16
    "Instead we are put in lives of misery , pain , stress , work and hardache , and in the end the things we painstakingly worked hard for is irrelevant as we fall victim to mortality."

    this is rather presumptive, that life neccessarily has to come with suffering. perhaps you should adopt a buddhist approach in which suffering is seen as resulting from DESIRE and, therefore, desires need to be reigned in and controled so as to control suffering. just a thought. from this perspective, suffering need not go hand in hand with life itself. futhermore, i have heard that this is the only planet in which there is so much suffering because it was chosen that droids and beings to coexist on this planet; on others, assuming sources are correct, planets are either all droids or all beings and there is no suffering, no conflict. just as there is no evident suffering in a hive of bees. some planets, according to sources, operate like a hive of bees and there is no suffering. i believe this planet was an experiment gone arwy.

    i would also tend to think that God doesn't exist rather than have one that is currently portrayed exist. however, i believe the nature of God is 180 degrees opposite what it is portrayed as, though i have skant evidence for this believe, this almost assumption.

    cheers,
    phoenix
     
  18. Sep 10, 2003 #17
    I guess I should clarify on a couple things.

    When I said
    Ample meant 'sufficient to convince YOU that God exists'

    I didnt ask for real-time examples and how they did not suffice YOUR tests for acceptance, I merely meant 100% proof of existence to YOU.

    Secondly, when I said "bow down", I meant 'Give complete respect for, and/or devotion to'

    I knew I had made that statement to vague but was too tired to care.

    Sorry to be so particular, but that is just how philosophy needs to be sometimes.

    Now, to get into the debate:


    This philosophy would work very well if God himself/herself/Itself had accepted it, but if his/her/it's ideal were different than yours, and did require you to 'give complete respect for, and/or devotion to' ; To be blunt, I find it incredibly stupid of the individual to oppose respecting/devoting a omnipotent body.

    Your definition of a miracle and my definition of a miracle are very different.

    What if our universe stopped following the laws of physics? This would be a miracle to me.

    It would make me a believer in God for the following reason.

    The odds that I have formulated are highly in favor of the omnipotent body rather than probability landing on universe collapse.

    In other words,the probability of the universe to stop following logic (aka the laws of physics) are greatly less than the probability of an existence of a omnipotent force.(In my subjective opinion.)

    So, statistically, It would benefit the individual to link near or equal infinite odds with miracles with God.

    Next, some of you said that you would only 'bow down' if God's ideals matched yours.

    If it were me, I would do and think anything God wanted me to. After all, when he/she/it programmed humans, he encouraged self-betterment and survival, which is a trait that all of us share.

    To me, maintaining my own ideals in opposition of God's would be foolish because it would be detrimental to my well being.(in my subjective opinion)
     
  19. Sep 10, 2003 #18
    would i act in accordance with God's will? YES.

    would i neccessarily LIKE IT? NO!

    would i feel like i had free will? NO!

    do i really need free will if i'm already maximizing my output in accordance with God's will? NO!

    i want to find the river called God's will and flow with it rather than oppose it anymore. opposing an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent being who people think is infinitely wise seems to be an utter waste of energy and just an experiment in the exercise of free will. i now believe i have explored free will enough and now i want some direction in life. i feel like God has told me to become a janitor but i don't know where the mop is!

    may your journey be graceful,
    phoenix
     
  20. Sep 10, 2003 #19

    FZ+

    User Avatar

    If the true god was a god that required me to bow down to him, then to hell with Him. If he required complete devotion, then to hell with that too. A god fickle and shallow enough to request the devotion of man is one that isn't worth worshipping, or trusting.

    God would exist, but I wouldn't believe in Him.
     
  21. Sep 10, 2003 #20
    How far do your principals for FZ?

    at what cost would you lose them?
     
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