# Illegal Mexican immigrants.

Illegal immigrants spit in the face of everyone who has ever entered this country legally. Why should they be able to cut ahead of the line in front of everyone else? What makes them so special that they should be granted automatic citizenship?

X-43D said:
The best way to reduce immigration is to fight poverty.

http://www.dailybulletin.com/news/ci_3648346 [Broken]
It is the poverty of Mexico. That isn't our fight. We have enough battles as it is. Most of the world agrees that we meddle in other countries affairs enough right now.

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Art
SOS2008 said:
Look at the numbers--I just stated that 2,000 try to cross through Tucson alone each day.
Doesn't this number seem a little strange to you? Is it likely the authorities stood and counted them over a period of time to arrive at this figure without apprehending them? Personally I'd take this with a large pinch of salt.

SOS2008 said:
Go look at other numbers as well, for example currently 1 in 20 workers are illegal with birth rates to match. No, I do not agree that legal immigration should be increased indiscriminately to match all those who want to live in the U.S. It simply cannot be sustained, and why there are caps, and to be fair, why there are quotas so people from other parts of the world can come here too.
This paragraph seems to be full of contradictions. To try and piece it together first you say 'No you are not in favour of indiscriminate immigration' yet nobody has suggested this should be the case, then you are saying stop illegal immigration, do not replace it with legal immigration but allow more people from other countries to enter America legally??
You will also note that if your figures are correct that 1 in 20 workers are illegal and you throw them out without replacing them with legal immigrants there will be a massive shortfall in the workforce.

SOS2008 said:
For seasonal work, I feel migrant workers are a great source of labor, but it needs to be monitored and wages need to be fair.
Allowing in seasonal workers doesn't address the problems caused by the declining birthrate or allow for America to collect on it's investment in migrants health and education. Why do you see a problem in granting people permanent residency provided they go through the screening process for health, crime etc..

Have you ever flown coast to coast in America and looked out the window. Most of America is completely empty. States like Wyoming have tiny populations (494,000) so it's not as if overcrowding is an issue which is why I am struggling to see what the issue is??

SOS2008 said:
Bottom line, anything Bush favors makes me wary. He acts so sympathetic to these people "who want to feed their family" yet look how he and his family behaved toward our own citizens in New Orleans. It is BS just like WMD was not the real reason for the invasion of Iraq. Vicente Fox has been running our borders since Bush became president, and Bush has enabled Fox in order to increase his own base.

Obviously Bush is interested in pandering to big business who are looking for more workers, preferably as cheaply as possible but even if his motives are impure it does't mean the end result is totally wrong.

In the absence of immigration will you explain how you see America continuing it's economic development and social support system given the very low and still declining birthrate resulting in an ever worsening dependancy ratio.

To summarise my opinion -

Employment laws need to be radically overhauled. Employers should be severely punished if they employ illegal workers without due dilligence. They should also have to pay immigrants the same rate of pay as an american born citizen would receive for doing the same job.

Illegal immigration should be eliminated mainly through pressure on employers as detailed above and also through greater policing including spot checks with perhaps financial penalties on their country of origin to cover the cost of repatriation and so encourage foreign gov'ts cooperation in eliminating the problem

Official quotas need to be increased to match economic demand. Like it or not America NEEDS a high level of immigrants to enable it's continued economic growth and to provide children as the workers of the future. Candidate immigrants should be screened for health, criminal backgrouns etc..

Permanent residency visas should be greatly increased. Bringing in guest workers does little for them and even less for America in the longterm. Permanent residency gives people a stake and therefore a pride in the country. The first few years should be probationary and misbehaviour responded to with revocation of their visa and expulsion.

Immigrants should be directed to states that require their labour. One of the key problems IMO with immigration is that certain areas such as the border states end up with a vastly disproportionate amount of newly arrived immigrants living in their locale at levels that cannot be intergrated into the existing community. Eliminating illegal immigration would solve a lot of this problem but nevertheless there should be a national plan to determine where immigrants should be assigned at least initially.

I don't really see what is particularly controversial about any of these suggestions as it addresses all of the issues raised by the anti-immigration lobby without the need to adopt what would on the surface appear to be racist policies?

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Gokul43201
Staff Emeritus
Gold Member
SOS2008 said:
And as stated above, for jobs where migrant labor really is needed, these people can apply for guest worker visas.
What exactly is a "guest worker visa". Is it different from the current H1 visa that permits foreign nationals from working here ?

If it isn't, I can't see how this will be implementable (in its present form). A large chunk of the illegal immigrant population works on some John Smith's farm in So Cal (or wherever). To apply for an H1 visa, Mr. Juarez will have to submit to the US High Commission in Mexico (in addition to other things) a letter from Mr. Smith stating that Mr. Juarez's particular skills make him unique and this set of skills have not been found amongst the Americans interviewed for the position.

How is Mr. Juarez to pull off such a scam ?

Art said:
Immigrants should be directed to states that require their labour. One of the key problems IMO with immigration is that certain areas such as the border states end up with a vastly disproportionate amount of newly arrived immigrants living in their locale at levels that cannot be intergrated into the existing community. Eliminating illegal immigration would solve a lot of this problem but nevertheless there should be a national plan to determine where immigrants should be assigned at least initially.
Since when does our government tell people where to live and where to work? Are we communists?

Evo
Mentor
Gokul43201 said:
What exactly is a "guest worker visa". Is it different from the current H1 visa that permits foreign nationals from working here ?

If it isn't, I can't see how this will be implementable (in its present form). A large chunk of the illegal immigrant population works on some John Smith's farm in So Cal (or wherever). To apply for an H1 visa, Mr. Juarez will have to submit to the US High Commission in Mexico (in addition to other things) a letter from Mr. Smith stating that Mr. Juarez's particular skills make him unique and this set of skills have not been found amongst the Americans interviewed for the position.

How is Mr. Juarez to pull off such a scam ?
I don't think people realize what the criteria is for getting work visas. I didn't until a friend of mine from Italy wanted to come over. It's tough.

Mexicans are not about to apply for any kind of visa's. They just keep coming. 42 of them were found piled on top of each other and locked in a horse trailer yesterday, the smuggler who brought them to the south side of Tucson simply took the $1000 per head he had charged them, unhitched the trailer and left it along the side of the road. I know the numbers that are coming through the Tucson sector. It averages 1000 per day caught and an estimated 1000 per day who get away. Every time there is talk of an amnesty the numbers explode. But Border patrol agents I have talked to feel the number that is detained is more like 15 to 20 percent rather than 50 percent. A lot of them stay in Souther AZ to be close to home. According to the Governors office, one in 12 people in Southern AZ is an illegal. How Rapists Prey on Vulnerable Border Crossers By Jerry Seper, The Washington Times, Dateline Jacumba, California, September 21, 2005 A growing number of women who illegally cross the southern U.S. border with Mexico are being raped by the same human smugglers who charge them$1,500 to $2,000 for safe passage. They find they have no legal recourse because they themselves seek to enter the United States illegally. Seper writes: "U.S. authorities said some Mexican border police have taken part in the violence, often targeting migrants headed to the United States from central and South America." The rapes are part of a growing pattern of violence on the U.S. southern border. There are more assaults and robberies of illegals, and there has been a fivefold increase in attacks on Border Patrol agents. Illegals Dying at Record Rate in Arizona Desert By Dennis Wagner, USA Today, August 19, 2005 Two hundred and one illegal immigrants have died along Arizona's 389-mile border with Mexico -- a new, tragic high for the state. This past July was the third-hottest on record for Arizona. Nonetheless, the state's brutal deserts have become more attractive to human smugglers since border controls got tougher in California and Texas. Wagner writes: "Many from Mexico's interior cannot comprehend the desert, where summer temperatures reach 115 or higher. Despite Spanish-language media campaigns warning of death, they are spurred by dreams of employment -- and by the knowledge that millions have made it before them." Since October 1, 2004, U.S. Border Patrol agents have caught more than Illegals Dying at Record Rate in Arizona Desert By Dennis Wagner, USA Today, August 19, 2005 Two hundred and one illegal immigrants have died along Arizona's 389-mile border with Mexico -- a new, tragic high for the state. This past July was the third-hottest on record for Arizona. Nonetheless, the state's brutal deserts have become more attractive to human smugglers since border controls got tougher in California and Texas. Wagner writes: "Many from Mexico's interior cannot comprehend the desert, where summer temperatures reach 115 or higher. Despite Spanish-language media campaigns warning of death, they are spurred by dreams of employment -- and by the knowledge that millions have made it before them." Since October 1, 2004, U.S. Border Patrol agents have caught more than 500,000 illegal border crossers in Arizona. No one knows how many successfully evaded detection. Of the bodies found in the desert, about 30 percent are never identified, even though U.S. police and medical examiners take pains to identify them using clothing, fingerprints and DNA samples illegal border crossers in Arizona. No one knows how many successfully evaded detection. Of the bodies found in the desert, about 30 percent are never identified, even though U.S. police and medical examiners take pains to identify them using clothing, fingerprints and DNA samples http://usinfo.state.gov/eap/east_asia_pacific/chinese_human_smuggling/smuggling_in_the_press/scams_abuse_deaths.html [Broken] This current system is unfair for both the illegals and for those of us who are paying for their medical care and social services. Nor are they all humble people looking for work. one in ten has a criminal record. Locally most of them work in an underground economy and do not pay taxes. Most of the local illegals work in construction, when the current housing boom crashes we are going to be looking at some serious social welfare problems. This is much more than a simple right or wrong issue. Last edited by a moderator: Art rachmaninoff2 said: Since when does our government tell people where to live and where to work? Are we communists? Since years ago. To obtain one of the more generally available visas, of the 70 different types available, wouldbe immigrants need to show they have a job lined up to go to. The visa they obtain is specific to that job. I don't think this makes you communists though. Seems Bush and me finally agree on something Bush calls for 'civil' immigration debate WASHINGTON (AP) — President Bush said Monday that overhauling the nation's immigration laws "is not going to be easy" and warned critics against stoking anti-immigrant feelings by calling them a threat to the nation's identity or a burden to the economy <snip> "No one should play on people's fears or try to pit neighbors against each other," Bush said. "No one should pretend that immigrants are threats to America's identity because immigrants have shaped America's identity. "No one should claim that immigrants are a burden on our economy because the work and enterprise of immigrants helps sustain our economy," the president said. "We should not give in to pessimism. If we work together I am confident we can meet our duty to fix our immigration system and deliver a bill that protects our people, upholds our laws and makes our people proud." http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-03-27-immigration_x.htm Last edited by a moderator: SOS said: We need to secure our borders and stop the flood as best we can NOW. The money spent on additional security measures will be worth it. But ultimately we need to remove incentive. If these people can't get a job once they enter, they will return home. Business must not only collect ID, but must verify that the ID is not fake, and then prosecute those committing fraud. Businesses not abiding by this need to face large fines. For those who are already here, they need to be screened. If they have a criminal record, contagious disease, are unemployed and/or relying on public services, or can't speak English, they need to be deported immediately. The rest need to do public service (military time will work) if they have committed fraud (used fake ID), pay any back taxes owed, and fined for illegal entry (to help with costs for border security, detention facilities, plane tickets, etc). Then they need to get in line for citizenship, which should move fairly quickly due to original screening. Those who do not come forward willingly will be automatically deported if caught. If these kind of requirements are not made, it will equate to amnesty and send a very wrong message. And once again, the cost to process these people will be worth it--we will pay the piper sooner or later. And as stated above, for jobs where migrant labor really is needed, these people can apply for guest worker visas. To keep it honest and to prevent wages from being depressed, the businesses hiring them should pay minimum wage. Tightening border security a good idea. From what I understand the CBP are a bit understaffed though during the Minutemen contraversy there were promises of increasing staff by about 20,000 I think. I'll have to look that up. A wall would be a disasterous proposition though. With the enormity of the undertaking our own government's incompetence would likely be enough to have it well sabatoged but beyond that they will also have to deal with protestors, coyotes, drug runners, and the mexican mafia. The minutemen were just watching and they got shot at a couple times. Here in CA they were attacked several times and I think were forced to abandon their post before they intended to. As far as the deportations and screenings I'm pretty sure that if such things were to go into action there would be riots and that would be some scary ****. I was in Santa Ana for new years once and the ammount of ammo being shot off in celebration was scary enough. Recently the INS made a couple raids to arrest some illegals and people freaked. It was plastered all over the news every where and the latino civil rights community made it sound like the worst thing since Wako. I don't think that the CA state and city governments would take very nicely to it either... Supervisor Gerardo Sandoval introduced a resolution Tuesday urging San Francisco law enforcement agencies to ignore federal illegal immigration legislation if the bill now in Congress becomes law... http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/03/29/BAGUCHVM6J1.DTL rachmaninoff2 said: Since when does our government tell people where to live and where to work? Are we communists? But that is fascism, not really communism. X-43D said: But that is fascism, not really communism. In most 'communist' countries you have to apply with the government to move from one place to another and take a job in another place. If the government says no then you can't go. TheStatutoryApe said: In most 'communist' countries you have to apply with the government to move from one place to another and take a job in another place. If the government says no then you can't go. This is true in any authoritarian or dictatorial state. SOS2008 Gold Member To those who doubt the immensity of the problem on the southern borders of the U.S., I wish you could live some place like Tucson for awhile, and then get back to me about how the numbers are being exaggerated. I was watching footage on the news last night that showed a group of illegals rushing the border (looked like California). In other parts of the world, they would be gunned down. They are running past the check point and no one is stopping them. Fascism my arse. People say we should just increase legal immigration so these people don't have to sneak across the border. I see it and hear it all the time, and it's a ludicrous solution -- It's equivalent to having no borders and allowing a free for all, which of course is how Mexico wants it to be. In watching interviews on the news, a Mexican professor said the U.S. should allow all these people legal entry and in about 12 years everything would normalize. WTF?! Yes, everything would "normalize" for Mexico, but the U.S. would be in ruins. In the meantime, I did not say we should not increase caps on legal immigration--just that it can't be made wide open to match demand. First the minimum wage needs to be increased to appropriate levels. Then if an increased need for immigration can be proven (hard data not from a bias source), then increase it to that amount. But increase it in a way fair to people who want to enter from all areas of the world via quotas. A skewed Mexican population, especially the percentages we are seeing in border states, does not constitute a "melting pot" in the American tradition. Pointing at the large amount of open land in the U.S. always slays me. Here in Arizona there are vast amounts of open land. But, there is no water, and we are already scrambling to accommodate the population growth here. It's the same as saying look at all of Siberia. In reference to worker visas, some work such as agriculture is seasonal so cannot support a resident year around--and thus how the migrant worker program began. But otherwise, maybe the concept of a guest worker program is not a good idea. At the minimum we should have the same requirements other countries have for citizenship, such as Canada. You say it is tough to get a company to sponsor you? That's the way it is everywhere. In regard to screening current illegals in the country and fear of riots -- This is why I say this is not immigration but an invasion. Call in the troops if we must. Foreigners cannot be allowed to dictate our laws to us with fear and riots on our soil. We are defending American freedom in Iraq? Riiight. Last edited: X-43D said: This is true in any authoritarian or dictatorial state. Not really. One of the hallmarks of communist states is they micromanage their citizen's lives, there is no 'freedom of employment'. The only employer is the state. Perhaps they decide it's to their interest to relocate you to a distant rural town to do farming, and permamently seperate you from everyone you've ever known - too bad for you. Last edited: Art said: Since years ago. To obtain one of the more generally available visas, of the 70 different types available, wouldbe immigrants need to show they have a job lined up to go to. The visa they obtain is specific to that job. I don't think this makes you communists though. That's totally different. They have skills and a PhD, they attract the interests of an employer, then they apply for an H1-B. It's a free contract of employment by both parties. What you're talking about is a federal government getting involved and moving people around, assinging employees to employers, telling people where they can live. That is a communist state. I'll quote exactly what you said: Art said: Immigrants should be directed to states that require their labour. One of the key problems IMO with immigration is that certain areas such as the border states end up with a vastly disproportionate amount of newly arrived immigrants living in their locale at levels that cannot be intergrated into the existing community. Eliminating illegal immigration would solve a lot of this problem but nevertheless there should be a national plan to determine where immigrants should be assigned at least initially. :yuck: :grumpy: Last edited: Evo Mentor The answer to the problem of illegal immigrants definitely is "not" to make them all legal and allow anyone to come into the country. There seems to be no pressure on Mexico to stop the mass exodus into the US. Although I feel for the poor people that want to make a better life and are willing to do hard work for it, too many just come across in order to send money back to Mexico. I'm getting tired of seeing the Western Union money transfer to Mexico forms on every customer service counter in town. They're just bleeding the local economy. Let me clarify one point many people here misunderstood. The existing 'guest worker' program, the H1-B visa are for skilled workers - many of these are for Ph.D's, M.D.'s, etc. At least in my opinion, these are jobs for which unrestricted, free market competition is very good; I'd hate to have my general physician replaced by some one less 'competitive' just because of their nationalities. The proposed "guest worker" program is in a totally different labor market, the "minimum wage" jobs for unskilled workers. This is a far larger job pool, and at the moment simple economics leads illegal immigrants to be filling it up. The President's program suggests creating a legal process for such large-scale unskilled immigration. These two things are totally different, and it would be great if no one here confused them from here on out. -rachmaninoff Economically, they're contributing plenty. But this is not a matter of economics, but culture. Human beings are not equal; they're as different from one another as Confucius and Luther, and the civilizations they give rise to consequently reflect the unfathomable distances that exist in the realm of the human spirit. The limited diffusion and assimilation one can expect of this highly homogeneous and numerically imposing block of people living some hours worth of travel from their homeland, makes this latest wave of immigration different from preceding ones, and most likely will result in the transformation of the areas they colonize into a living space coherent with their cultural and religious characteristics. They will make the southern states part of Mexico again. People, not geographical borders, make up a nation. When you look at Mexico, do you see a place you want to live in? I don't mean the colorful appeal any foreign land exerts upon one. Do you see yourself settling down and raising a family under the conditions prevalent south of the border? rachmaninoff2 said: Not really. One of the hallmarks of communist states is they micromanage their citizen's lives, there is no 'freedom of employment'. The only employer is the state. Perhaps they decide it's to their interest to relocate you to a distant rural town to do farming, and permamently seperate you from everyone you've ever known - too bad for you. In fascist states it is the same. The state regulates all corporate activity through chartering and licensing. At least in communist states people are paid according to how hard they work, not so in fascist states. Art That's totally different. They have skills and a PhD, they attract the interests of an employer, then they apply for an H1-B. It's a free contract of employment by both parties. What you're talking about is a federal government getting involved and moving people around, assinging employees to employers, telling people where they can live. That is a communist state. :rofl: Just to clarify, no I am not saying that. Staff Emeritus Science Advisor Gold Member Have you all heard about the effort for Mexico to reclaim the southern states. Once thought to be a joke, according to the report on Lou Dobbs yesterday, this idea is gaining favor amoung illegal immigrants; who organized a 500,000 person protest in in L.A., in one day. There is a formal name for this movement but I didn't quite catch it. As a person who grew up in S. Cal, this is my biggest problem with the illegals: Many don't wan't to be Americans, rather they want America to be Mexico. They don't want to assimilate into our culture, they want to transform our culture into theirs. Never mind that their country sucks so bad that they all want to come here... They want to import their failed system and culture. Oh yes, time and time again you can see that they believe they are entitled to US land and social programs. I have heard this first hand many times. Last edited: Moonbear Staff Emeritus Science Advisor Gold Member Ivan Seeking said: As a person who grew up in S. Cal, this is my biggest problem with the illegals: Many don't wan't to be Americans, rather they want America to be Mexico. They don't want to assimilate into our culture, they want to transform our culture into theirs. Never mind that their country sucks so bad that they all want to come here... They want to import their failed system and culture. There are also those who don't even want to live here, but come across the border to earn a paycheck to send back to support their family that will stay in Mexico. It just sucks money straight from our economy to support theirs. Gee, why is nobody up in arms that Canada doesn't allow unskilled U.S. citizens to work in Canada either? When the former lab I worked in moved to Canada, there was no problem obtaining visas for the "highly skilled workers," (i.e., those with Ph.D.s moving for faculty positions), but our technicians and the one administrative assistant that wanted to move and the lab wanted to move with them as well could not obtain visas to work in Canada, because there were not uniquely qualified over Canadian citizens available to do those jobs. I would fully expect the Canadian government to deport any U.S. citizen found to be working or living there illegally back to the U.S. and to list them as ineligible to ever cross the border again. And I don't think it should be any different for anyone entering any country illegally, so don't know why Mexican citizens needs to receive some form of special consideration. They should be treated exactly the same as any citizen of any other country as far as immigration laws are concerned. Staff Emeritus Science Advisor Gold Member Moonbear said: There are also those who don't even want to live here, but come across the border to earn a paycheck to send back to support their family that will stay in Mexico. It just sucks money straight from our economy to support theirs. That's exactly right. We have an 800 billion dollar trade deficit, and then the labor for domestic goods is driven down to third world wages by illegal laborors who receive income that leaves the US. Ivan Seeking said: That's exactly right. We have an 800 billion dollar trade deficit, and then the labor for domestic goods is driven down to third world wages by illegal laborors who receive income that leaves the US. I can't figure out how to cut and paste from a PDF document so here is the entire link. http://www.bearstearns.com/bscportal/pdfs/underground.pdf The two largest sources of income flowing into Mexico are from, oil sales to the USA, and from money sent back to Mexico by the undocumented workers. The two figures, in Billions, are running very close. According to the link the USA is also losing$35 billion in unpaid income taxes.

Our schools and hospitals here in Tucson are experiencing a tremendous burden, and yet receive no help from the federal govenment.

There is a very overt but under the radar effort by the Mexican government to assist it's undocumented throngs in the USA.

from the November 29, 2002 edition - http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1129/p03s01-usju.html

For illegal immigrants, new mobile ID service
Thriving beneath the radar and above the law, matricula consulars boost the privileges and status of illegal Mexicans.
By Patrik Jonsson | Special to The Christian Science Monitor

WEST COLUMBIA, S.C. - At El Rincon Vaquero trading post here in West Columbia, S.C., votive candles compete with cowboy hats and jars of dark mole for shelf space. The colorful shop is a slice of Mexico in the middle of a rundown neighborhood. But one day this month, El Rincon Vaquero became, through a bit of diplomatic magic, an actual outpost of Mexico.

In an aggressive - some say subversive - new gambit, the Mexican government is sending its deputies through the American countryside, setting up shop in strip malls and schools, and handing out new Mexican ID cards called matricula consulars for \$29.
Ten U.S. states now allow the "matricula consulars" to be used as sufficient identification to get drivers licenses and other services.

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loseyourname
Staff Emeritus
Gold Member
rachmaninoff2 said:
Not really. One of the hallmarks of communist states is they micromanage their citizen's lives, there is no 'freedom of employment'. The only employer is the state. Perhaps they decide it's to their interest to relocate you to a distant rural town to do farming, and permamently seperate you from everyone you've ever known - too bad for you.
Notably, in the Soviet Union, there still existed large populations of Siberian natives that were nomadic reindeer herders, such as the Eveny and Chukchi, that lived and worked as family units. After the revolution, since all private ownership was outlawed, their herds were seized and made state property, and the families were intentionally broken up and people were instead organized into brigades, with men given the herding jobs and women made to work in villages that were set up, because nomadism was no longer allowed either. This, along with the fact that they were killed if they openly practiced their shamanistic religions, destroyed the economic viability of these people, making them completely dependent upon the government bureaucracy. Reading about them today, or watching documentary film footage, can be utterly heartbreaking.

It's amazing how simple-minded the Soviets were at times, as if nothing existed in the world but imperialist capitalism and the glorious "worker's paradise." Like tribal nomads that followed the natural migration patterns of reindeer herds, in which family units owned a few domesticated reindeer that they used to hunt the wild ones, were such imperialistic capitalist pigs that needed to be collectivized.