Should Mexicans Focus on Improving Mexico Instead of Immigrating Illegally?

[SOS2008]

It seems to me that we have to make the population already here legitimate - not citizens, but they should come out of the shadows. I do think we should enforce strict laws and applies severe penalties to the employers and such, and we do need to stop the hemorrhaging of the border, but we don't want to take a population that is 40% employed and throw them all out of work. This would only help to create more poverty and put larger burden on an already failing safety net. And I'm sure that many would stay here in any event since they know that their children will still get a free education, medical care, etc.

You realize if we enforce strict laws (hiring laws?) with severe penalties to employers, the 40% employed would all be out of work. I agree it would not be reasonable to deport all illegals overnight even if we could. We need to start processing these people, and it will take some time. During that time what is their status? If a "guest worker" status is used solely for this purpose and with the understanding it is temporary (just during the processing period), I would support it. However, the qualifications for citizenship must be legitimate (per existing qualifications), and not arbitrary such as time in the country or good behavior. Not only would anything other than existing criteria be unfair to people who immigrated legally, but how can you expect illegals who don't meet the cut-off time to come forward? Those with a criminal record aren't going to come forward. On the other hand, if these people can only immigrate per existing qualifications, it is projected it will take 11 years to gain citizenship. Are you willing to allow these people to remain here for 11 years or more as "guest workers", or should they return home while they wait? Come on, this is why illegals are against anything other than blanket amnesty.

I want legislation that secures the border ASAP (and personally I think we must also build a wall, which would be a one-time cost compared to ongoing costs for manpower, detention facilities, etc.), and legislation that enforces existing laws, most notably employment laws. There can be no amnesty, and even compromises or exceptions to rules will be a big welcome sign and we will have another 15 million illegals here in only a few years time. That's the unfortunate reality that we've seen before. And if we need to use the military, than we must do it.

My commute was a breeze yesterday in L.A. Let's have a protest every Monday.

I also was thinking how nice it must have been for American kids in school--not overcrowded, great student/teacher ratio, and all English instruction. Well they are planning more protests for May 19th, so enjoy!

I won't be buying anything made by Tyson Foods anymore.

Same here. Wal-Mart I've always boycotted, and I'm adding Home Depot.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

You realize if we enforce strict laws (hiring laws?) with severe penalties to employers, the 40% employed would all be out of work.

I wondered if that would cause confusion. I see something like a grace period to allow illegals to register for a documentation process, and after that the laws would be strictly enforced.

Of course I have heard this song sung before...

Same here. Wal-Mart I've always boycotted,

I would but they've run all of the competition in town out of business.

 

[edward]

Most of the companies hiring illegal immigrants skirt the law, and mislead the public, by hiring sub-contractors to provide their labor force. Construction companies here are using nearly 100% subcontracted labor.

The ironic part is that many of the sub-contractors are themselves illegal immigrants who have learned how to manipulate the system.

It amazes me that the Bush administration has allowed this trend, and the flow of illegals to continue. The border in AZ is still like a sieve. I wonder somewhat tongue in cheek about what would have happened if 15 million Canadians had slipped into this country in the same time frame?

 

[edward]

I wondered if that would cause confusion. I see something like a grace period to allow illegals to register for a documentation process, and after that the laws would be strictly enforced.

Of course I have heard this song sung before...

I got your point and I think your use of the term "make them legitimate" is an excellent idea.

At this point many of the illegals currently have the illusion that they are legitimate when they buy a fake drivers license. We need to give them some REAL legal hoops to jump through to earn that ligitimacy.

 

[SOS2008]

I got your point and I think your use of the term "make them legitimate" is an excellent idea.

At this point many of the illegals currently have the illusion that they are legitimate when they buy a fake drivers license. We need to give them some REAL legal hoops to jump through to earn that ligitimacy.

That's the key issue - what will be required to earn citizenship legitimately.

Let's begin with existing quotas. Should Mexican nationals be given more opportunity than other nationalities? And if so, within that category of Mexican immigrants, should those who are already here (illegals) be given precedence over those who are still in Mexico who want to immigrate? In other words, should illegals be placed at the front of the line?

Then let's consider citizenship requirements. IMO the PROCESS for becoming a citizen needs to be improved from a bureaucratic perspective. There are not enough resources, and plenty of frustrating incompetence.

But if we relax the CRITERIA for citizenship in any way, I feel it should based on solid data of what OUR country needs. And before we determine what our country needs, we should make sure legal citizens are being given opportunities first. For example, it is becoming apparent that we are not preparing new generations for trade work, such as electricians, mechanics, etc. Part of it is the stigma that has been placed on these kinds of jobs (and in large part the stigma is that of low pay, which is due to employment of illegals). However studies are showing that increasing percentages of upcoming generations will not continue education beyond high school, so they will need these kind of jobs. We are already seeing this as parents support their kids later and later in life (currently the average age of 28). And these kinds of jobs cannot be exported except by giving them to foreigners inside the country.

My guess is we will need more immigrant labor in the medical field (huge shortage of nurses will increase), and possibly other high-end fields such as science, technology, and engineering. The unfortunate reality is illegals from Mexico are not going to fill these niches unless filled by future generations after being educated in our schools and universities with tax payer subsidies. In which case, I must ask why we aren't reserving these resources to prepare our own children?

When these idiotic politicians talk about a comprehensive solution, they say nothing about these issues I'm addressing. We need a multi-pronged approach that deals with the root of these problems, not only in our nation but in Mexico as well.

In the meantime, we need to secure our border by sealing it off as best as we can as soon as we can. And then, IMO, forget about finagling a way to accommodate the illegals already here. Sorry, but there simply is no solution that will be acceptable to both them or legal citizens.

Instead let's focus on our laws. First amend the constitution so that birth is automatic citizenship only to parents who are legal citizens. Then in addition to existing hiring laws, require employers to check documents. It is easy--there is already a database online by which they can do this at no cost other than a few minutes of their time. Very simply, it isn't a law, so they don't do it. Then if they find documents are fraudulent (though use of fake ID would end immediately if this is known), they also should be required to report it. The current laws regarding fake ID are as follows:

Fake ID Facts

False identification is used for many types of fraudulent activities, including illegal purchase of alcohol and cigarettes, check fraud, bank fraud, social security fraud and immigration fraud. Advanced computer graphics technology and color copiers have made it easier to produce fake IDs and harder for law enforcers or retailers to detect them.

The following summaries explain the law regarding the use, possession and production of falsified identification documents and the penalties for such actions.

COV 18.2-204.1. Fraudulent use of birth certificates, driver's licenses, etc.

* It is illegal to use another's identification as one's own.
* It is illegal to possesses or sell an ID for the purpose of establishing a false identification.
* Persons who possess, use or distribute fake IDs are charged with a Class 1 misdemeanor. If the document is used to purchase a firearm, the charges increase to a Class 6 felony.

COV 18.2-204.2. Facsimile or manufacture, sale, etc., or possession of fictitious, simulated official license or identification.

* It is illegal to possess, produce or distribute a falsified document that can be mistaken as an official government document.
* Violators face Class 1 misdemeanor charges for the sale or production of such ID and Class 2 misdemeanor charges for possession of such ID.

http://www.abc.state.va.us/facts/fakeid.html

These laws need to be tougher--it should be a felony, especially for those who manufacture and distribute fraudulent documents. As for illegal entry, those who enter more than once should not only be charged a fine to help pay for the cost to deport them repeatedly, but it should be at least a misdemeanor on the second try. Then law enforcement can assist if they enter again.

I guarantee you these measures would stop the flood immediately. And as cruel as some would like to make is sound, the illegals already here would return home on their own (natural attrition). No, they will not starve. During the time it will take to get these laws on the books (with a date of enforcement announced in advance), many illegals would sell their homes and/or businesses, and invest in their own county with the money they otherwise would not have. Those who have been educated in our schools can take their knowledge to their own country to be put to use there, that they otherwise would not have. Soon Mexico would be a better place, and so will the future of our own citizens in the U.S.

 

[edward]

A lot of the drivers licenses were sold to illegals by employees of the DMV, and not just here in AZ.

 

[SOS2008]

A lot of the drivers licenses were sold to illegals by employees of the DMV, and not just here in AZ.

The database I mentioned is to check Social Security numbers, and no one can be hired legally without a Social Security number. However, if so inclined (or should I say brave) an illegal could register to vote with a driver's license, so that's not a good thing either.

edward, did you see this on the news?

Every day around the clock illegal immigrants make a run for the border. Most who are caught will be deported and will likely try again of course. But those who are caught in Arizona may not be so lucky. They have to deal with a rebel sheriff and his posse of thousands. CNN's Peter Viles has more on that controversial policy and patrols in a story that first aired on CNN'S "Lou Dobbs Tonight."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: A perk walk you won't see anywhere else, illegal aliens arrested for allegedly agreeing to be smuggled into America and making the mistake of passing through Maricopa County, Arizona.

SHERIFF JOE ARPAIO, MARICOPA COUNTY, ARIZONA: I'm trying get a message out to all the illegals from Mexico to stay out of this county.

VILES: Maverick sheriff Joe Arpaio believes Arizona's new anti- smuggling law applies not just to coyotes, but to the illegal aliens they transport.

ARPAIO: It's interpreted by the county attorney that those that are in conspiracy with the smuggler can also be locked up. I'm the only law enforcement agency doing it.

VILES: And doing it his way using some of his vast posse of 3,000 volunteers to patrol the desert. This volunteer helped round up nine illegals and two alleged smugglers Tuesday morning.

ANDREW RAMSAMMY, VOLUNTEER DEPUTY: When you get a phone call at 4:00 in the morning from the sheriff, you respond.

VILES: Arpaio's deputies have jailed 120 illegals this year and this sheriff does not believe in catch and release.

ARPAIO: It's a felony, 1 1/2 years to 3 years in prison if convicted. So it's not a misdemeanor. I could very easily turn these people over to immigration, they get a free ride back to Mexico. Right now they're getting a free ride to the jail.

VILES: Jail space is not a problem. Arpaio is the sheriff who built a tent city of jail cells.

RUSSELL PEARCE, (R) ARIZONA STATE HOUSE: The message has to be loud and clear. We're not taking it any more. You enter this country illegally, you're going to be arrested, you're going to be deported.

VILES: It's likely though the county will face a legal challenge in its use of the new law. At the state level, it is being used only to target the smuggler. The sheriff bristled at the suggestion his posse is somehow similar to "The Minutemen" saying his volunteer posse undergoes extensive professional training and is sworn in under the Arizona state constitution. Peter Viles for CNN, Los Angeles.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0605/04/acd.01.html

I say good for Arpaio. And I feel he has a solid legal case. True, the illegals are the "contraband" but unlike drugs, they are "consenting adults" so unless they are kidnapped, they are accomplices to the smugglers (coyotes). In the past, I have also had email correspondence with Representative Pearce, who has been advocating English as the national language for a long time now. (Just as a side note, his son was a Deputy who was shot by an illegal alien.)

And then this:

A Los Angeles attorney brought into the case last week by the Mexican Consul General's Office in Phoenix plans to file another motion claiming Maricopa County Attorney officials are violating state and federal law because it's the federal government's job to control illegal immigration.

Both motions are to be argued in county court on May 23.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/nation/3841709.html

The Mexican Consul General's Office? And of course they would like the federal government to be responsible because the federal government does nothing but look the other way.

In the meantime, I keep seeing bleeding-heart BS from the likes of Patti Davis (Reagan's daughter). In her article "Rude America" by Patti Davis wrote:

"Yet on May 1, thousands of immigrants across the country marched and waved flags and professed their love for America. Doesn’t anyone see the irony in this? These are people who not only put up with the same climate of rudeness the rest of us do, but they’re paid poorly, they will never get their Social Security benefits (if they’re here illegally) and now there is a move to send them all away. Yet they sincerely love this country. They’re willing to see past our obvious shortcomings and work hard to live here."

With all the Mexican flags being waved, and chants of "Mexico!" in Spanish, how does Patti come to the conclusion that these law-breaking illegals have loyalty to America? And I guess she didn't see footage of them throwing rocks and bottles at police officers as it began to get dark. If Americans are rude, it's probably because they are paid poorly, thanks to depressed wages due to illegals in our country. As for Social Security benefits, can any of us count on receiving these benefits, especially since far more of our tax dollars must be spent on other benefits illegals enjoy in increasing numbers? First, Patti and many other pro-amnesty people need to understand that these illegals are here because of corporate greed, and not by invitation of tax-paying citizens. The American people therefore don't owe illegals anything.

A recent study comparing immigration/illegal entry laws of six nations (Sweden, Egypt, etc., and including Mexico) concluded that all have stiffer laws than the U.S. has. The more I learn, the more my position hardens. I say:

1) Secure our border by sealing it off as best as we can as soon as we can. I feel this must include building a wall.

In the meantime, and going forward, those who cross the border illegally once should be charged a fine and deported immediately. A warrant for their arrest should be issued for failure to pay the fine. On a second attempt to cross the border they should be charged with a misdemeanor. In these ways local law enforcement can assist in apprehending them if they continue to enter illegally. Right now it is only a "civil offense."

2) Amend the constitution so that birth is automatic citizenship only to children of legal parents. This also is the norm in other countries.

3) Require employers to check Social Security numbers. There is already a database online by which they can do this. Then if they find documents are fraudulent, they also should be required to report it to the INS.

4) It should be a felony to use fake ID, and especially to manufacture and distribute fraudulent documents.

5) English needs to be made our national language, and anything provided by our government in any other language must be ended. Making government services available in Spanish is discriminatory to other nationalities, contrary to assimilation and advancement, and contributes to delusions of entitlement by illegals.

I know some feel it is best to focus on one thing at a time, beginning with securing the border. But I feel all these things should be in the debate now, or we may never progress to the rest of these items later.

In the meantime, believe it or not, environmentalists are against amnesty for illegals. They say the resulting population explosion in the U.S. would be very detrimental. That's right, the tree huggers want to measure and control immigration -- they are against a free-for-all.

Keep up the phone calls, letters, and emails to your congressional representatives! It makes a difference.

 

[edward]

SOS2008

Yes I saw the news about Sheriff "Joe" in Maricopa county. Actually he doesn't have enough room, even in his tent city, to house all of those who may be caught.

From another aspect, the Border Patrol has reported that the number of apprehensions that they announce may be quite misleading. This is because those who are caught are returned to border towns and the illegals simply try agian the next day, and the next. Eventually they make it. Getting caught is no big deal to them. They get free meals, medical care, a safe place to sleep and the next day a free ride back down to the border.

The border has been a revolving door that has cost us millions of dollars. And at the same time our nation has supposedly been under a high state of security, millions of people have crossed into this country and simply disappeared into an underground economy.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

These are people who not only put up with the same climate of rudeness the rest of us do, but they’re paid poorly, they will never get their Social Security benefits (if they’re here illegally) and now there is a move to send them all away. Yet they sincerely love this country. They’re willing to see past our obvious shortcomings and work hard to live here."

Oh please, get a grip Patti. They are here because Mexico and Cen Am are dirt poor and riddled with corruption.

 

[Art]

Oh please, get a grip Patti. They are here because Mexico and Cen Am are dirt poor and riddled with corruption.

And the other 280 million american immigrants and their descendants are there because?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

People came here for about as many reasons as you care to name. In my case, some ancestors were native Americans. :tongue:

Many were turned away at Ellis Island. We have never let everybody in, and never without controls.

 

[SOS2008]

Most Americans are descendants of immigrants, and many came to seek a better life--except black Americans--talk about paying one's dues. Two things -- First of all, times have changed. The Americas are no longer a vast frontier, including countries to our south such as Mexico. Second, the original immigrants came according to the laws of the time, and many died because they were not able to prepare in time for the harsh winters. The waves of immigrants that came later were processed at Ellis Island for disease, etc., and some were turned back, as Ivan pointed out. If you want to talk about hardship, I'll be glad to send you some history about my ancestors. Now that we've built this city and have prospered, of course people want to come to El Norte. But that doesn't make it right to flood over the borders with total disregard for a country's sovereignty. And those of you living elsewhere who are so upset, I don't see you opening your borders to these people.

Here are some photos of the protest that you didn't see on the news:

http://img363.imageshack.us/img363/7452/mexicancheguevara9bc.jpg - The Mexican flag and Che Guevara Flag being flown

http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/8324/sittingonflag8bv.jpg - The Mexican flag being waved while sitting on the American flag (makes a nice cushion)

http://img363.imageshack.us/img363/1944/threeamigos0uo.jpg - "MEXICO" written on sombreros

http://img363.imageshack.us/img363/8013/panchovilla2ww.jpg - A banner reading "Division of the North - Poncho Villa"

http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/3003/cheguevara8sk.jpg - A protestor wearing a Che Guevara t-shirt

Here is a quote from one of the million other hopefuls: "We saw the protests on TV and heard about an amnesty, and that's why we're here," said Honduran mechanic Jose Alberto Rosales, as he rested at a Catholic church shelter in the Mexican border city of Reynosa.

So far this fiscal year (since October 1st, 2005) 724,613 illegal aliens have been apprehended coming across the southern border. When you take into account that even the BP bureaucrats admit they only catch one in four (the front lines guys will tell you it's more like one in ten), millions of people have flooded across the border due to the irresponsible "amnesty" rhetoric of our President and our United States Senate.

Not only is this a foreign invasion, but it is an industry. Between the coyotes, the various governments, safe house operators, transporters, lobby groups and many many more…..it is a wonder they don’t open a lobby office on K street (er, um, maybe they have). This is hardly immigration as it once was, nor is it a civil rights movement or any other such just cause, though some in the media would like to make it seem so. Aside from Patti Davis, here's some more propaganda from Anna Quindlen:

Thousands of people were marching down the thoroughfare, from the Embarcadero to city hall, holding signs. NO HUMAN BEING IS ILLEGAL. I AM A WORKER, NOT A CRIMINAL. TODAY I MARCH, TOMORROW I VOTE. I PAY TAXES.

...Some of them remember the Vietnam War marches, the feminist rallies. The May Day demonstration bore some resemblance to both, which was not surprising. Immigration is the leading edge of a deep and wide sea change in the United States today, just as those issues were in their own time.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12666382/site/newsweek/

First I must make note of this: Being a human being means you're not illegal, and being a worker means you're not a criminal. Interesting logic, or rather lack of it. Someone better tell all the criminals in our prison system they are a different species, and all workers they can do as the please.

Aside from these supposed profound statements, the main point of her article is that many illegals pay taxes. There are some who do, but far more do not. And of course she points out that they pay into Social Security. Um, that's because they are committing fraud. Perhaps they should be grateful they aren't in jail! What is paid hardly covers what is spent on public education and healthcare (county hospitals, Medicaid), etc. She makes it sound like they pay their fair share, but that simply is not true. I've already provided unbiased stats that show there is a deficit, and I can't tell you how many times this claim is debunked during news interviews. Yet journalists like Quindlen continue to spew this garbage that only further fuels the attitude of entitlement and resulting divide.

In the meantime, the country braces itself for another Illegal Love-in on May 19th.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

This is interesting. From the "Minutemen" who patrol the border and who took it on themselves to start building a fence where there was none [photo sent to Congress], to San Bernadino, where locals seek to pass laws against renting houses to illegals, a genuine grass-roots movements is taking hold, in spite of Congress.

...As Congress debates the polarizing issue of immigration, the founder of an anti-illegal immigrant group is pushing for San Bernardino to outlaw day labor sites and bar the undocumented from renting property.

Joseph Turner, executive director of the group Save Our State, submitted voter petition signatures this week that would force a City Council vote or a citywide election on the measure, which would also deny city permits, contracts and grants to businesses that employ illegal immigrants, and require that city business be done in English. [continued]

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-immig27apr27,1,4951961.story?coll=la-headlines-california&ctrack=1&cset=true

It was reported today that since the demonstrations, sympathy for the illegals has wained significantly. One poll had support for their position down by as much as twenty percent since the protests.

On Lou Dobbs, one viewer suggested that we might have better luck if we outsourced border security to a foreign nation. :rofl:

Didn't we just try that with the ports deal?

Did you all read about the city council that was recalled when they used public funds to build a day labor pick-up site for illegals?

 

[edward]

LOS ANGELES: Activists in Los Angeles, where massive rallies have galvanised the pro-immigrant rights movement, said today they were mobilising for a new political blitz on Washington.

The campaign seeks to lobby members of Congress and flood their offices with telephone calls and post cards demanding legalisation for the estimated 12 million illegal immigrants in the United States. It also plans summer-long citizenship and voter registration drives and possibly more protests.

"We have leverage (from) the millions of people who have been out there demonstrating in the streets," said Antonio Rodriguez, a leader of the pro-immigrant March 25 Coalition.

"They want a seat at the dinner table and they want to partake of the benefits."

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3663589a12,00.html

According to this recent article from down under the illegal immigration problem is far from over. This kind of makes me wonder if the NSA is keeping an eye on these people with their domestic spying operation.

One thing is for sure, the NSA has ignored the border.

 

[SOS2008]

A 21st Century Problem

Earlier I asked what other countries are opening their borders to people fleeing poorer regions of the world such as Latin America. Spain, a socialist country did have open borders for African immigrants -- for awhile. But then the flood of migrants grew to such a point that Spain changed the "open door" policy, and Morocco has become the "border state." Here are some articles on the topic:

May 11, 2006, 1:29PM
Europe, Africa Address Immigration Issue
By JAMEY KEATEN Associated Press Writer
© 2006 The Associated Press

NICE, France — For immigrants from Africa and elsewhere, Italy and Spain have largely opened doors. France, however, is sending the message: Give us your doctors, high-tech whizzes and sports stars - but not your poor, unskilled masses.

Differing approaches on immigration belie the idea that the 25-nation European Union functions as one, and raise questions about how European and African interior ministers meeting here Thursday and Friday can find common ground.

For years, hundreds of thousands of illegal African immigrants have sought to reach Europe to flee poverty or conflict. Some cram onto rickety boats to cross the Mediterranean Sea to Italy; others jump fences around Spanish enclaves bordering Morocco _ sometimes with deadly results.

Illegal immigration, terrorism and drug trafficking topped the agenda for high-level Interior Ministry officials from five European countries _ France, Italy, Malta, Portugal and Spain _ and Algeria, Libya, Mauritania, Morocco and Tunisia.

Lingering tensions between Algeria and Morocco over the disputed Western Sahara, and the Europeans' lack of a common approach, were likely to dampen any prospect for a solid accord at the conference.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/world/3856886.html

http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=31638 -

POPULATION:
Morocco, Spain Get Tough on Illegal Immigrants

CASABLANCA, Jan 2 (IPS) - Illegal immigrants seeking to start a new life in Europe will now find it impossible to jump the border after Moroccan and Spanish armies have erected a barbed wire between their common frontier.

http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/051008/2005100818.html - "Morocco - Spain illegal immigration issue heats up" Politics, 10/8/2005

http://www.spainherald.com/2005-10-27news.html - "Amnesty International charges Spain, Morocco with human rights violations"
Thursday, October 27, 2005

So many similarities, such as Catholic priests advocating on behalf of these people who are entering EU countries illegally, woman and children traded for sexual exploitation in exchange for passage, etc. Except when these people get to Spain, they do not protest in the streets waving the flag of their homeland, and they can't get jobs, because hiring laws are enforced.

An infinite exportation of poverty is not viable. These countries that are poorly governed, rampant with corruption and graft, or in the case of Africa, often subjected to the violence of military conflict and/or famine, is what needs to be addressed throughout the world.

 

[Art]

This is interesting. From the "Minutemen" who patrol the border and who took it on themselves to start building a fence where there was none [photo sent to Congress], to San Bernadino, where locals seek to pass laws against renting houses to illegals, a genuine grass-roots movements is taking hold, in spite of Congress.

Did they obtain the necessary planning permission / building permits for this? Or are they breaking the law? :tongue:

 

[Astronuc]

Good fences make good neighbors . . . eh?

TIM BEDORE: Ever hear the phrase "Good fences make good neighbors"? The person who first said that lived next door to a young Adolf Hitler.

All right, I made that up. But I'm not making this up: Politicians like James Sennsenbrenner of Wisconsin, a state normally known for providing America with sensible people, want us to build a fence along our entire border with Mexico at a cost of $2 billion.

. . . . .

The politicians behind this fence idea think, if the Mexicans can't get into our country, our college kids are going to be taking these agricultural summer jobs that illegal aliens do now. And that's a completely plausible scenario — thousands of Mazda Miatas and street-rod Hondas parked out in the fields while their owners, wearing Juicy butt-pants and baggy shorts down below their butts get stabbed by artichoke prickers for 12 hours.

I wonder if the politicians proposing these ideas have ever talked to the young people of America. Because I have. They don't seem like hard workers to me. They don't even seem like the kind of kids who would climb over a fence to see a college football game. They seem like the kind of kids who would camp out on the couch and play an illegally downloaded video game they stole off the Internet -- all summer. They seem that way because . . . they are that way.

But if politicians are willing to roll the dice, fine. Build the fence. And afterwards, when a trip to the salad bar costs $49.99, please make sure you remember which political party had the faulty intelligence on this one.

:rofl: http://marketplace.publicradio.org/shows/2006/05/12/PM200605127.html

Time Bedore's Website - Vague but True - http://www.vaguebuttrue.com/

 

[SOS2008]

Good fences make good neighbors . . . eh?

:rofl: http://marketplace.publicradio.org/shows/2006/05/12/PM200605127.html

Time Bedore's Website - Vague but True - http://www.vaguebuttrue.com/

The part about today's kids is so true. Still there is the working poor, including other minorities such as blacks, and still there are some young Americans who want work. For example, I have a friend who has a house cleaning service, her ex-husband is a drywaller, and her daughter is a waitress -- All the kind of jobs the illegals are taking.

But here's an idea -- Let's put our growing prison population to work in the fields. They still do community work in many areas, for example where I live they help clean trash along the highway. If farmers paid for prison labor what they pay illegals, we would generate revenue for prisons as well.

I'm sick of the never-ending list of lame excuses for why we should grant amnesty (on some level or another) to law-breaking illegals.

 

[edward]

While the Senate and Congress have spent the last two years skating around the periphery of a decision on what to do with the illegals who are already here, the border is still wide open.

While both parties have avoided taking any actions, which in itself appears to be an attemt to avoid losing any of the Hispanic vote, the border crossing problem has only worsened.

If I had a leaking water line, the first thing I would do would be to shut off the flow. If I had dug myself into a hole the first thing I would do would be to stop digging. What are the politicians thinking? They have done nothing meaningful.

If Washington can't even deal with an obvious and clear cut domestic problem such as stopping the flow of illegal immigrants, perhaps we should not be involved in global nation building and making threats against other countries. We need to put our own house in order.

 

[sanchecl]

If I had a leaking water line, the first thing I would do would be to shut off the flow. If I had dug myself into a hole the first thing I would do would be to stop digging. What are the politicians thinking? They have done nothing meaningful.

If Washington can't even deal with an obvious and clear cut domestic problem such as stopping the flow of illegal immigrants, perhaps we should not be involved in global nation building and making threats against other countries. We need to put our own house in order.

You seem surprised that the politicians have done nothing meaningful. If so, you will probably continue to be surprised by the continued inaction during this election year. It seems to me like the focus is always on the next election cycle rather than taking care of the people's business. Our politicians can't figure out how to balance the nation's check book, what makes anyone think they can (or will) address the illegal immigration problem our country now faces.

In recent years, it doesn't seem to matter much if you are talking about Republicans or Democrats. If we want to address these and other problems our country faces, I believe the first step is to reclaim our government. The way to do so, in my opinion, is first to put in place term limits and put an end to the so-called career politician. Only then will we have people in Washington DC who have a chance of remembering why they are there in the first place.

 

[SOS2008]

The constituency ranges in opinion about how to deal with the illegals already in the U.S. Making it a felony seems too harsh to most, but amnesty is out of the question to all (except illegals and Mexico). What constitutes amnesty IMO would be a path to citizenship based on arbitrary criteria such as time spent in the U.S. and/or good behavior -- this merely rewards those who have broken laws rather than requiring them to earn their citizenship. The process for citizenship should be improved, but the criteria must be fair to all who wish to immigrate, and granted based on proven needs of our country (including any type of guest worker program).

But any representative of either party who does not show support for securing the border ASAP will be hurt in 2006. Everyone agrees this must be done if only for security reasons. Hopefully Arizona will soon have assistance from the National Guard to stop the flood coming across the border. This is important, because this would be per federal funds. Otherwise, if Gov. Napolitano uses the state guard, the cost must be paid by Arizona citizens. Already in some places, such as in areas of California, they are raising taxes to pay for county hospitals. If state taxes become too high and/or services too poor, no one will want to live here--including illegals! We'll all be coming soon to a state near you.

So I am hopeful that there will be at least measures taken to secure the border regardless (or because?) of the upcoming election.

 

[Astronuc]

You seem surprised that the politicians have done nothing meaningful. If so, you will probably continue to be surprised by the continued inaction during this election year. It seems to me like the focus is always on the next election cycle rather than taking care of the people's business. Our politicians can't figure out how to balance the nation's check book, what makes anyone think they can (or will) address the illegal immigration problem our country now faces.

Not trying to derail the thread, but I heard a comment regarding the new tax bill - meaningless 'reform' - in which congress 'fixes' the tax code, when they are really leaving other deficiencies to 'fix' next time.

Meanwhile, Bush is considering using the military for border security. I guess they will need to do something when they return from Iraq. On the other hand, I wouldn't be surprised if Halliburton, Titan, CACI and others pick up DHS contracts for border security at premium prices.

 

[SOS2008]

Not trying to derail the thread, but I heard a comment regarding the new tax bill - meaningless 'reform' - in which congress 'fixes' the tax code, when they are really leaving other deficiencies to 'fix' next time.

Meanwhile, Bush is considering using the military for border security. I guess they will need to do something when they return from Iraq. On the other hand, I wouldn't be surprised if Halliburton, Titan, CACI and others pick up DHS contracts for border security at premium prices.

In regard to use of military, I feel it is necessary for this problem. But let's just hope everyone knows the difference between a state emergency to prevent foreign entry versus Katrina, which was a domestic crisis involving U.S. citizens. Otherwise use of the military could become a slippery slope.

If Halliburton, Titan, CACI and others pick up contracts, say to supply the military or build a wall, I wonder if they will use illegal labor.

 

[edward]

I have heard that in Bush's upcoming speach about the immigration problem (Monday), he is going to offer money to help the individual states pay for using their own National Guard units on the border. With 40% of the forces in Iraq being from the National Guard, this might be a stretch.

It is legal to use them in their home states to perform law enforcement duties so long as they are not officially mobilized by the president or DOD. Arizona has had a token National Guard presence on the border since 1988.

So far it has been suggested that the National Guard troops will only be used in a support role for the Border Patrol. They will be doing surveillance ect. That will not provide enough feet on the ground doing searches and apprehensions to be effective. To make things worse the Arizona natioanl Guard helicopter unit was recently activated for duty in the middle east.

 

[SOS2008]

Minutemen travel to D.C. to assail amnesty
Civilian border patrol culminates tour as Congress mulls immigration bill

Gathered in the park by the Russell Senate Office Building, the protesters said that the Senate and Bush have betrayed the nation to curry favor with Hispanics and other immigrants. They spoke particularly harshly of Bush, who has criticized those on the group's border patrols as "vigilantes."

"History will record this act of treachery, and we as citizens must never forget it," said Barbara Coe, co-author of California's Proposition 187 to deny public benefits to illegal immigrants.

Over and over, the protesters said that they supported legal immigration and were opposed only to the open flouting of the nation's laws by millions of illegal residents. They carried signs reading "Sovereignty Is Not Racism" and "Invasion Is Not Immigration."

Heated confrontations
Loudly challenging them were a few dozen people gathered nearby, a mix of immigration advocates and other activists who tried to drown out the Minutemen with drums and bullhorns. "Bigots in your suits and ties, we don't want your racist lies!" they chanted. Police tape separated the groups, and when it was removed after the rally, the counter-protesters advanced on the Minutemen before officers on motorcycles intervened.

The counter-protesters mocked the size of the Minuteman rally, noting that it was dwarfed by the pro-immigrant marches. "They claim to have a million members, but this is their big national rally," said David Benzaquen, 22, an American University student.

Gilchrist said the turnout was modest because most critics of illegal immigration are "average Janes and Joes" too busy working to attend rallies. He said their voice would be heard in the 2006 and 2008 elections, predicting that anyone with an anti-amnesty platform could win 40 percent of the vote.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/12763032/

Interesting how the pro-amnesty folks are able to be out in force as much as they are, spewing their propagandistic claims of racism. And when the police tape was removed, they were the one's who became aggressive, causing officers to intervene. Such lovely people.

I've signed a petition on the Minutemen website, so receive email updates from them now. I know a lot of other people signed the petition too, and if we are all counted as members, I'd say there are a million members. The polls show the true sentiment in the country, so I agree that legal citizens will speak their minds on such issues with their votes.

Unfortunately I hear that the pro-amnesty organizers are also trying to flood congress with calls, letters, and email. So all I can say is don't stop contacting your representatives if you want your views to be heard over all their screaming.

 

[SOS2008]

I have heard that in Bush's upcoming speach about the immigration problem (Monday), he is going to offer money to help the individual states pay for using their own National Guard units on the border. With 40% of the forces in Iraq being from the National Guard, this might be a stretch.

It is legal to use them in their home states to perform law enforcement duties so long as they are not officially mobilized by the president or DOD. Arizona has had a token National Guard presence on the border since 1988.

So far it has been suggested that the National Guard troops will only be used in a support role for the Border Patrol. They will be doing surveillance ect. That will not provide enough feet on the ground doing searches and apprehensions to be effective. To make things worse the Arizona natioanl Guard helicopter unit was recently activated for duty in the middle east.

Another way the invasion has hurt us...

I agree that Americans should be very wary of politicking before elections. Current measures to secure the border will take years to implement. That's way too much time, especially in view of another announcement of amnesty by our president and senate. So I feel a combination of the Guard and military (what ever can be spared) is necessary to help secure the border NOW. However, I will look for the following in Bush's speech today:

1) The Number - Initially we will need 36,000 troops, increased to 48,000 troops for necessary relief of duty -- at an estimated cost of around $2.5 billion per year (the same as a one-time cost to build a wall). Any numbers less than these will be tokenism.
2) The Amount of Time - These troops will need to remain as long as it takes to install other security measures (fencing, lighting, sensors, roads, cameras, ultra-light aerial observation vehicles). NOT just until the 2006 election is over.
3) Area of Assistance - Currently Arizona Guardsmen are only helping to inspect cargo shipments coming through legal entry points, which does nothing to stem the tide of illegal immigration (thanks to Janet Napolitano).

Let's see what Bush has to say about these things in regard to securing our borders. And then let's keep an eye on our senators, and governors such as Bill Richardson (who advocates citizenship based on "good behavior" i.e., amnesty) as well as Janet Napolitano, who has only recently shown concern about the border because of pressure from her constituency.

Let's hope the American people aren't hoodwinked on this one.

 

[Tsu]

To help with the gas problem, I've decided to hire illegal aliens to push my car for me. Then I'm going to pay them in pesos so they have to go home to spend their money. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

 

[bartman fartman]

As long as they behave themselfs and assimilate and work and pay taxes let them escape poverty stricken mexico and come to the us,but when they get here don't join gangs i know there's a lot of mexican gangs in the us that comit violance and deal drugs.

 

[ptabor]

I agree with the OP... the hordes of illegals pouring into our nation represents an invasion of an unprecedented scale.

It is the duty of our government to secure our border firstly... seems like a no brainer to me - if you can't secure your border, how are you going to effectively fight a war on terror?

Although, why aren't we pressuring the Mexican government to do something about the problem? after all, it's THEIR citizens that are invading our country... i'd say the responsibility rests on the head of the mexican gov't.

I say start by enforcing the laws that are already on the books, without going through the chirade of crafting new ones. Following this, build a wall and post soldiers with automatic weapons w/ non-lethal rounds to gun down anyone who tries to scale the wall. As far as I'm concerned, this is an invasion and as such is a military matter. Anyone attempting to invade our country is an enemy combatant and should be treated as such.

Won't happen, though. The republicans see $$$$ in the cheap labor, and democrats see a large pool of potential voters.

 

[SOS2008]

As long as they behave themselfs and assimilate and work and pay taxes let them escape poverty stricken mexico and come to the us,but when they get here don't join gangs i know there's a lot of mexican gangs in the us that comit violance and deal drugs.

Behaving oneself would include abiding by laws. First they enter illegally, then they use forged documents (fraud) to gain employment. I'm not okay with that regardless of circumstances -- If you want to talk about poverty, there are other areas of the world much worse off, and why not work with the Mexican government to improve the situation there instead?

But you are overlooking the bigger issues. Aside from suppressing wages, straining government services, etc., the massive numbers entering the country (in combination with high birth rates) has resulted in Hispanics outnumbering all other minorities (Asian, Blacks, etc.) and will soon outnumber all other races. America has been a successful melting pot due to acceptance of people from all over the world--not just one place. I know many Europeans, for example, who would love to immigrate. Why shouldn't they, or anyone else have a chance?

Forcing ones way into another country without permission IS an invasion, and can never be justified.

 

[edward]

This article refers to a man who came to the USA, then returned to Mexico to get an American job at a Maytag appliance factory. He can leave his children here, which apparently he did, and the American taxpayers will have to pick up the tab for their education and healthcare.

On the other hand look at the wages Maytag is paying in Mexico $22 per day. Most Mexican will not stay and work for that pay when they can make $80 per day here. $10 per hour is the starting wage for illegals working in contruction trades here. Americans can not afford to live on that pay.

Reyes now works as a spot-welder on the assembly line of a Maytag large-appliance plant and earns $22 a day, most of which he sends back to his family in the U.S., who in turn send a portion of that back to the original family they left in Mexico. Like many former Mexican-Americans forced by circumstance to become American-Mexicans, Reyes dreams of one day bringing his relatives to Mexico so that they, too, may secure American employment in Mexico

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/47978

 

[Evo]

This article refers to a man who came to the USA, then returned to Mexico to get an American job at a Maytag appliance factory. He can leave his children here, which apparently he did, and the American taxpayers will have to pick up the tab for their education and healthcare.

On the other hand look at the wages Maytag is paying in Mexico $22 per day. Most Mexican will not stay and work for that pay when they can make $80 per day here. $10 per hour is the starting wage for illegals working in contruction trades here. Americans can not afford to live on that pay.


http://www.theonion.com/content/node/47978

Uhm, you do know that The Onion is a joke site, right? You *do* know it's a joke? :uhh:

If you really didn't know that, read the next story after the one you posted.

NASA Announces Plan To Launch $700 Million Into Space
May 3, 2006 | Issue 42•18

CAPE CANAVERAL, FL—Officials at the Kennedy Space Center announced Tuesday that they have set Aug. 6 as the date for launching $700 million from the Denarius IV spacecraft , the largest and most expensive mission to date in NASA's unmanned monetary-ejection program.

"This is an exciting opportunity to study the effect of a hard-vacuum, zero-gravity environment on $50 and $100 bills," said NASA Administrator Michael Griffin, who noted that prior Project Denarius missions only studied space's effect on fives and singles. "Whether the money is immediately incinerated because of hard radiation, or freezes in the near-absolute-zero temperature and shatters into infinitesimal pieces, or drifts aimlessly through the cosmos before being sucked through a black hole into another dimension, it will provide crucial information for our next series of launches, which will consist of even greater sums of money, in larger denominations."

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/47977

 

[edward]

OOPS:rofl:

On the other hand that is one joke that could come true.. Maytag has moved to Mexico. Ford is building more factories in Mexico.
Most Dogde and some Ford trucks are built in Mexico. Privately owned pickup trucks and SUV's are being stolen in AZ and moved to Mexico. They should have a great economy.