I'm sorry Sudanese citizens - the world is too whimpy to help you

[member 5645]

I'm sorry Sudanese citizens - the world is too whimpy to help you...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3790559.stm

Sudanese children dying of hunger
Aid workers fear there could be thousands of burials in Darfur
Hundreds of children have started to starve to death in Sudan's war-torn western province of Darfur.

I wonder what it feels like to have to figure out numbers like this, and then have the information fall on many deaf ears:

"If we get relief in, we could lose a third of a million. If we do not, it could be a million," Andrew Natsios, head of the US Agency for International Development told a UN donor conference last week.

 

[kat]

Phat-com'on, you should know by now...it's only majorly newsworthy and important enough for the peace activist to be virulantly vocal on if it involves the U.S., it's corporations or the Joooooos. If you don't believe me take a look at what's newsworthy http://www.marumushi.com/apps/newsmap/newsmap.cfm

 

[russ_watters]

The tumble-weed in this thread speaks volumes...

 

[Nommos Prime (Dogon)]

Umm, there's a DIFFERENCE...

Sudan is a Civil War.
Iraq is an Invasion.

Can you not distinguish between?

Do you know where Sudan is?
Can you point it out on a map?

 

[studentx]

We're not talking about Iraq here Nommos...
This thread is about Sudan! The land where hundreds of thousands will die because people like you only want to look at Iraq, or more specifically, the places in Iraq where American soldiers are.
I am apalled by your lack of insight in this tragedy on a biblical scale. Calling it civil war is a poor excuse for doing nothing.

 

[member 5645]

Sudan is a Civil War.
Iraq is an Invasion.

Can you not distinguish between?

Do you know where Sudan is?
Can you point it out on a map?

Sudan is as much a civil war as Rwanda was Government supported Arab militias are ethnically cleansing black Africans. Despite a ceasefire, it still is happening. Despite the UN, the US is the only country actively pushing for aide and an intervention to this conflict. There is no excuse for not helping.
IT IS GENOCIDE.
What the hell does Iraq have to do with this thread??NOTHING! Quit trying to change the subject, again.

Yes.
Yes.

 

[amp]

I bet if he shows american corporate interests are responsible for the turmoil in the first place... well you know.

 

[member 5645]

I bet if he shows american corporate interests are responsible for the turmoil in the first place... well you know.

What does this mean? I guess I DON'T know.

The fact is, that apart from the altruistic want to stop another Rwanda, peace in Sudan, and much of northern Africa, BENEFITS US companies because they can then conduct business - in many cases oil business, the very companies there somehow many would LOVE to try to pin this genocide on.

 

[amp]

I don't either. Was there US policies in place to overthrow elected leaders in Sudan? That has been a pattern with the US.

 

[member 5645]

I don't either. Was there US policies in place to overthrow elected leaders in Sudan? That has been a pattern with the US.

I fully fail to see what you are going at - do you have a point? some information? Or are we just turning this thread into a mental masturbation convention.

Perhaps our disgust at Sudan being elected to the UN human rights body is proof!

 

[amp]

Phatmonkey, I don't know the full story with respect to the US and Sudan but this links info does indicate that the US has been hardly altruistic towards Sudan.

Go to: http://www.mediamonitors.net/mosaddeq16.html#4

Some info on recent policy here: http://www.twf.org/News/Y2001/0614-BushSudan.html

US policy in recent years has focused on isolation and containment of the Sudanese government. This policy is motivated more by US perceptions that the Sudanese government supports international terrorism than by concern about the civil war. However, the US relationship to Sudan is complicated by economic factors. US corporate and financial interests, for example those which use gum arabic in their products (soft drinks, candy and pharmaceuticals) and US investors in Talisman, the oil company, want the United States to maintain good relations with the Government of Sudan to secure their interests.

 

[member 5645]

Phatmonkey, I don't know the full story with respect to the US and Sudan but this links info does indicate that the US has been hardly altruistic towards Sudan.

Go to: http://www.mediamonitors.net/mosaddeq16.html#4

Some info on recent policy here: http://www.twf.org/News/Y2001/0614-BushSudan.html

Most of that article refers to another president, and his order of a single wrongful bombing (not to mention the constant and repeated speculation of WHY said president did said bombing). As we all know, many policies change, especially with political lines. I am talking about stopping genocide, and the lack of action by anyone else in the world.
Luckily, it looks as if the G8 has been pushed to acknowledge the problem today, and are calling for an immediate stop of it.

Also, as I have stated "The fact is, that apart from the altruistic want to stop another Rwanda, peace in Sudan, and much of northern Africa, BENEFITS US companies because they can then conduct business - in many cases oil business, the very companies there somehow many would LOVE to try to pin this genocide on."

 

[amp]

Ok, I get it. Too bad for the Sudanese though.

 

[member 5645]

Ok, I get it. Too bad for the Sudanese though.

It is too bad. The first post I made puts the 'good' number at 1/3 million.

 

[member 5645]

Speaking of the recent G8 development, the EU is finally stepping in as well! Better late than never!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3794041.stm

 

[selfAdjoint]

Gee, sounds just like Bosnia. Wait till the ethnic cleansing is over, then step into look shocked.

 

[Dissident Dan]

Western militaries should be stepping into stop the fighting and escort humanitarian aid.

I'm kinda disgusted by the attempts to turn this thread into ideological bickering, meanwhile these people are suffering and dying.

The G8 stuff seems rather weak. Urging probably won't help much. At least the EU is giving money to fund observers, but that is not nearly enough. I think that a Western military presence is required.

 

[Loren Booda]

For those who wish to donate, can someone post a contact list to legitimate charities (like the Red Cross International Response Fund) operating in southern Sudan? Also, do any of you remember the Biblical-proportion wanderings of the Sudanese "Lost Boys" featured on 60 minutes?

 

[Nommos Prime (Dogon)]

Donations?

Posted by phatmonkey;
“Most of that article refers to another president, and his order of a single wrongful bombing (not to mention the constant and repeated speculation of WHY said president did said bombing). As we all know, many policies change, especially with political lines. I am talking about stopping genocide, and the lack of action by anyone else in the world.”

A single wrongful bombing?
You mean, like the World Trade Towers?
Anyway, its well established that the Sudanese DID NOT bomb the USA Embassies. Well-established.

http://www.cnn.com/US/9808/20/us.strikes.01/

Yeh, got a pharmaceutical plant (Nice…)

http://grassley.senate.gov/releases/1998/p8r08-20.htm

Osama, mentioned once more…(circa 1998)
http://www.marxist.com/Africa/usterrorism.html

Yeh, the USA is a real hero in the Sudan…

http://www.sudantribune.com/article.php3?id_article=2982

“In a separate development, on Tuesday the US took Sudan off its list of countries deemed uncooperative in the war against terrorism, but kept it on a list of "state sponsors of terrorism". Boucher said Sudan had taken a number of positive steps on cooperation against terrorism over the past few years, but remained on the state terrorism list because of the presence of Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad in Sudan, "and some other concerns".
He cautioned that even if ongoing peace talks between the government and the Sudan People's Liberation Movement/Army succeeded, Sudan should not expect "a significant flow" of aid or assistance until "their [government's] behaviour in Darfur has changed".”

That is called blackmailing a Nation with “aid” tied to military expenditure…

 

[Nommos Prime (Dogon)]

If You Americans REALLY CARE...

If you really care (which I know - you DON'T!);
Then donate here;
http://gbgm-umc.org/umcor/emergency/sudan.stm

I donated a lousy twenty bucks last year...

Can anybody else on this Forum make this claim?
Geez, I'm an uncaring Nazi...

 

[member 5645]

Nommos - I'm biting my tongue here, but do not being derailing my thread. Most of what you just posted is straw man garbage. No one in this thread has made the claims you are attempting to argue against.
And to add to that, you are in NO position to tell me if I really care about this matter or not.

 

[Nommos Prime (Dogon)]

So you've donated?

Oh yeh, a reference to a Sudanese newspaper is uncalled for.
The horses mouth hurts...

 

[Loren Booda]

I'm donating $50, earmarked for Sudan, to the Red Cross International Response Fund. Can anyone beat that?

 

[member 5645]

So you've donated?

Oh yeh, a reference to a Sudanese newspaper is uncalled for.
The horses mouth hurts...

Start using the quotes button so that dialogue may continue...


You responded to a supposed accusation that the Sudanese bombed the USA embassy. I have not, and cannot find anyone else, in this thread that has said otherwise. PLease stop trying to change the subject.

I have no idea what else you are talking about.

Yes I have donated.
Loren, I'm going to do something uncharacteristic of me and not tell you my amount, as to not compete on this (although I do see the good spirit in your 'dare' to beat you).
I'm happy if anyone assists at all. Glad you could help nommos.

 

[member 5645]

“In a separate development, on Tuesday the US took Sudan off its list of countries deemed uncooperative in the war against terrorism, but kept it on a list of "state sponsors of terrorism". Boucher said Sudan had taken a number of positive steps on cooperation against terrorism over the past few years, but remained on the state terrorism list because of the presence of Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad in Sudan, "and some other concerns".
He cautioned that even if ongoing peace talks between the government and the Sudan People's Liberation Movement/Army succeeded, Sudan should not expect "a significant flow" of aid or assistance until "their [government's] behaviour in Darfur has changed".”

That is called blackmailing a Nation with “aid” tied to military expenditure…

Good for the US government! It'd be a shame to let the SUdanese Government use Aid to fund and support other militias that are performing genocide against the populous.
Reward those governments that act inline, not those that act contrary to your values - ie genocide.

 

[Dissident Dan]

I've got to agree with phatmonky.

 

[Adam]

I never give money to religious organisations. They should be taxed.

However, since I sometimes apply for jobs overseas (I enjoy travel), I am applying for some Red Cross jobs.

 

[revelator]

I've been reading Chomsky's Hegemony or Survival, America's Quest for Global Dominance, and he points out that in most cases of "American humanitarian intervention" atrocities tend to escalate after and during any American interventions. He cites Nicaragua as one example, and a few others which I don't recognize off the top of my head. I don't have the book handy at the moment, or I would reference it. If anyone is interested I could post the relevant passages once I get home.

To get to the point of my post, does anyone have comments on Chomsky's statements?

 

[russ_watters]

To get to the point of my post, does anyone have comments on Chomsky's statements?

His statements are self-evident: adding more violence in an effort to speed the end of a crisis is still adding more violence.

Hypothetically, if 1,000 people a day are dying in a genocide and outsiders kill 2,000 people per day for 2 weeks in stopping the genocide, how long does it take before the net result is saved lives?

Is return-on-investment calculus moral in these situations? IMO, it is.

 

[Dissident Dan]

http://www.economist.com/world/africa/displayStory.cfm?story_id=2668200

 

[kyleb]

Is return-on-investment calculus moral in these situations? IMO, it is.

if you are a moral relativist it is. otherwise, killing inocent people is always immoral.

 

[Njorl]

if you are a moral relativist it is. otherwise, killing inocent people is always immoral.

If you take in more calories than you need, or calories in an inefficient fomat, you raise the price of food and starve someone to death.

If you use more energy than you need, you raise the price of feul and freeze someone to death.

If you buy more clothing than you need, you raise the profitability of textile manufacture, and make slave laborers in China, who have a high death rate, more possible.

If you own possessions, and expect them to be protected by police, you make necessary police who will inevitably kill innocent people by mistake.

If you are not a self-sufficient hermit living on land nobody else wants, you are killing innocent people. The question is not should we refrain from killing. It is, what do we do to make our killing acceptable. Welcome to the real world. If you've read this, you've contributed to someone's death somewhere. Have you contributed enough to life to make it worthwhile?

Njorl

 

[kyleb]

thank you Njorl, for your very absurd example of moral relativism.

 

[selfAdjoint]

If you take in more calories than you need, or calories in an inefficient fomat, you raise the price of food and starve someone to death.

If you use more energy than you need, you raise the price of feul and freeze someone to death.

If you buy more clothing than you need, you raise the profitability of textile manufacture, and make slave laborers in China, who have a high death rate, more possible.

If you own possessions, and expect them to be protected by police, you make necessary police who will inevitably kill innocent people by mistake.

If you are not a self-sufficient hermit living on land nobody else wants, you are killing innocent people. The question is not should we refrain from killing. It is, what do we do to make our killing acceptable. Welcome to the real world. If you've read this, you've contributed to someone's death somewhere. Have you contributed enough to life to make it worthwhile?

Njorl

Nonsense. This is bad economics. The idea that every time I turn around or consume any food or energy, some person dies as a result just won't fly. There are huge slops in the international balance of payments, and things in the fifth or sixth decimal place cannot be counted up. And most people do not starve to death - where they do it's more due to local distribution than supply. Likewise nobody is freezing to death because I drive to the store. You are just waving your hands and making horrors up.

 

[Loren Booda]

If you do nothing, what happens?