Imperialism and socialdarwinism

[Thallium]

I have to questions:

1) Can imperialism be justified?
2) Can socialdarwinism be justified?

 

[selfAdjoint]

Justified by whom? Both of them can be bitterly opposed, and social darwinism can be shown in its literal form to be false (success in the marketplace does not guarantee more surviving descendents; rather fewer). But justify? That's what their proponents do.

 

[russ_watters]

My understanding of Social Darwinism was that it is about social interaction only - ie, it has nothing to do with procreation. Applied to economics, it says that the strongest company survives and grows while weaker companies die off.

As for justification, I'm also unsure of the point or relationship between the two. Jusficiation implies morally right or wrong - social darwinism is a theory that accurately describes a lot of social interaction. It isn't in and of itself moral or immoral.

Imperialism is generally regarded to be immoral.

 

[Math Is Hard]

Social Darwinism is thought to be just plain inaccurate by modern cultural anthropologists. Social Darwinism was popular with 19th century anthropologists who supported the Unilineal Cultural Evolutional model. The UCE model proposed that all societies progressed through a series of stages from Savagery to Barbarism to Civilization. The pinnacle of Civilization, of course, was thought to be Victorian Society. This viewpoint is what we now call ethnocentric - that is, you had a small group of people saying that their own society was the best or most appropriate way for humans to live.
Franz Boas (sometimes called the father of modern anthroplogy) was one of the first anthropologists to reject the Social Darwinism and the UCE model. He introduced the concept of Historical Particularism, which means that each society has its own unique history which shapes its culture, and that every society should be studied on the terms of its own uniqueness and complexity, not just classified by where it fell in rank next to Victorian Society. This went completely against the old-school beliefs. If I remember correctly Boas was a physicist before he got into the field of anthropology.

 

[BoulderHead]

The pinnacle of Civilization, of course, was thought to be Victorian Society. This viewpoint is what we now call ethnocentric - that is, you had a small group of people saying that their own society was the best or most appropriate way for humans to live.

In our time such jactitation can be found still very much alive and well in these forums…

 

[Math Is Hard]

In our time such jactitation can be found still very much alive and well in these forums…

Hey, Boulderhead, watch your language. There ARE kids on this forum, you know!

 

[Thallium]

Well how do the proponents of socialdarwinism justify it? And does imperialism necessarily have to be viewed a negative? Does anyone think that the EU expansion boarders on imperialism? I do. The only difference is that now the countries have to apply for membership. All other non-member countries have to abide by a range of EU-laws. It's dispicable!

 

[russ_watters]

Math is Hard - thanks for the anthropology lesson. I was under the impression that people still applied the concept (perhaps under a different name?) to other things. Capitalism, for example, certainly seems to me like a Darwinian process.

Well how do the proponents of socialdarwinism justify it?

Again, I don't really see the relevance of "justification" - it either accurately describes what we see going on or it doesn't. It sounds like you are asking if imperialism is a Darwinian process and if that makes it ok. Well, imperialsim does seem like a Darwinian process to me, but that doesn't make it ok.

And does imperialism necessarily have to be viewed a negative?

Imperialist countries typically view it as a good thing - everyone else tends to view it as a bad thing. That is its basic flaw.

Does anyone think that the EU expansion boarders on imperialism? I do. The only difference is that now the countries have to apply for membership.

I don't see how that follows - imperialism is conflict: one country taking over another. If EU members voluntarily sign up, it can't be imperialism.

All other non-member countries have to abide by a range of EU-laws. It's dispicable!

Why? The purpose of the EU is that through working together, its member countries can be a more powerful economic force than they can be individually. Its like a labor union, but with one difference - eventually, maybe everyone will be a member. I don't see how that's a bad thing.

The US is big and powerful, and as such, gets to dictate the terms of its contracts a lot of times. The EU is trying to get big and powerful to counter that.

 

[Thallium]

Again, I don't really see the relevance of "justification" - it either accurately describes what we see going on or it doesn't. It sounds like you are asking if imperialism is a Darwinian process and if that makes it ok.

The imperialists used Darwin's theory of evolution and the socialdarwinism that derived from his theories of the weak and strong in nature, to justify the imperialists' cause.

Well, imperialsim does seem like a Darwinian process to me, but that doesn't make it ok. Imperialist countries typically view it as a good thing - everyone else tends to view it as a bad thing. That is its basic flaw. I don't see how that follows - imperialism is conflict: one country taking over another. If EU members voluntarily sign up, it can't be imperialism.

So how do you define imperialism? I am thinking of the EU as a new form of imperialism. A seemingly "good" one.

 

[Math Is Hard]

The imperialists used Darwin's theory of evolution and the socialdarwinism that derived from his theories of the weak and strong in nature, to justify the imperialists' cause.

OK, I think I understand you now. I believe you were actually asking how people used their belief in social darwinism to rationalize to themselves that imperialism was acceptable.

So how do you define imperialism? I am thinking of the EU as a new form of imperialism. A seemingly "good" one.

Note that Russ highlighted the word voluntarily in his last post. As far as I know, no one is being forced to join the EU.
However, you did mention previously that "All other non-member countries have to abide by a range of EU-laws". Is your argument that these laws are so restrictive and penalizing that this a method of forcing countries to join the EU? What are these laws?

 

[Thallium]

Is your argument that these laws are so restrictive and penalizing that this a method of forcing countries to join the EU? What are these laws?

Yes. I can see that very clearly in my own country. Norway is not a member of the EU, but it still has to adapt to many of the EU's rules and regulations. I do not know too much about these restrictions, but the EU does have a negative influence on Norwegian trade and even Norwegian law. It is unfortunately inevitable.

Many of these rules are being forced into my country and the Norwegian parliament can not protest. They have no other choice but to accept it. This to me is imperialism and quite a sneaky form of imperialism too.

 

[arildno]

However, you did mention previously that "All other non-member countries have to abide by a range of EU-laws". Is your argument that these laws are so restrictive and penalizing that this a method of forcing countries to join the EU? What are these laws?

Along with Liechtenstein and Iceland, Norway is the proud participant in "The European Economic Cooperation" which is a "bilateral" organization with these 3 countries on one side of the table, and EU on the other.

The treaty can be summarized as follows:
As long as these 3 countries implement in their respective countries whatever (or close enough, anyways) laws EU decides upon to be valid in the EU-area,
EU has generously promised not to actively squeeze out these countries' products from the EU-market.
Since about 3/4 of Norway's exports end up in the EU-region, there isn't a realistic alternative for Norway to withdraw from this treaty.

 

[Thallium]

My whole country is not proud to be participating. Any interaction with the EU, many Norwegians dislike and regard as a threat to our nation.

Thanks for adding the treaty!

 

[Math Is Hard]

The treaty can be summarized as follows:
As long as these 3 countries implement in their respective countries whatever (or close enough, anyways) laws EU decides upon to be valid in the EU-area,
EU has generously promised not to actively squeeze out these countries' products from the EU-market.
Since about 3/4 of Norway's exports end up in the EU-region, there isn't a realistic alternative for Norway to withdraw from this treaty.

Wow - certainly sounds like one of those "offer you can't refuse" type of situations.

 

[russ_watters]

Many of these rules are being forced into my country and the Norwegian parliament can not protest. They have no other choice but to accept it. This to me is imperialism and quite a sneaky form of imperialism too.

That isn't imperialism, that's just competition. Otherwise, every trade negotiation is imperialism for both sides and Norway is being imperialistic by trying to apply its own rules to the EU.

 

[Thallium]

Wow - certainly sounds like one of those "offer you can't refuse" type of situations.

That is exactly what it is. Norwegian economy and trade depends ons such treaties and the more connections between Norway and the EU the boundaries.

 

[arildno]

That isn't imperialism, that's just competition. Otherwise, every trade negotiation is imperialism for both sides and Norway is being imperialistic by trying to apply its own rules to the EU.

I quite agree with you that the term "imperialism" is not entirely appropriate here, russ.
Doesn't mean that I have to like the situation, though..

 

[Thallium]

Well, I stick to my opinion that it is a imperialism. Not like what it was in the Age of Imperialism/the Victorian period. Rather a modern, "diplomatic" and sneaky strategy.

 

[arildno]

I fully agree with you, Thallium, in that it is a SNEAKY strategy.
I don't like it.

 

[Thallium]

Yep, yep. I'll have to find updated information on the connections between Norway and the EU, and all the other countries that have signed such treaties with the EU, before I can say more.

 

[russ_watters]

I quite agree with you that the term "imperialism" is not entirely appropriate here, russ.
Doesn't mean that I have to like the situation, though..

Fair enough: I think the word you are looking for is EXTORTION .

Illegal use of one's official position or powers to obtain property, funds, or patronage.

 

[arildno]

Well, since it is quite legal for any countries to put as high customs barriers (&other stuff) on products imported to their country as they like, extortion doesn't quite fit the bill.
Ruthless (and I have to admit, understandable) egotism is more like it.

Just for the record:
I'm under no illusion that Norwegians would have behaved more nobly if they had had the same kind of leverage in the negotiations.

 

[SabbiS]

well nice turn of the table there russ_watters :)
This Norway vs EU discussion might seem to get a bit off-topic from the original thread, but what the heck, no ones crying right?

Well just a question for Thallium,
Why where people in Norway so against joining EU from the beggining?
was it maybe because of your pretty high BNP and economics that could get a little push downwards?
You already have it good and stable, why try to fix somethin' that ain't broken.

Im not saying that I am right but its just a general fealing i have.

 

[russ_watters]

well nice turn of the table there russ_watters :)
This Norway vs EU discussion might seem to get a bit off-topic from the original thread, but what the heck, no ones crying right?

Well, we could alway do the US vs EU thing: that's pretty much the reason the EU was created. Someone else brough Norway up though.

 

[Thallium]

Well just a question for Thallium,
Why where people in Norway so against joining EU from the beggining?
was it maybe because of your pretty high BNP and economics that could get a little push downwards?
You already have it good and stable, why try to fix somethin' that ain't broken.

Norway has always been hostile towards a membership in the EU. The reason why is because we know how much control will be taken from the Norwegian parliament. Teeny tiny Norway will not have a prick to say if it submits to the superpower. Norway is very fine economically. In fact, one of the few with a fine economy at the moment. We have had a few budget problems this year, but nothing that would cause any great harm or corruption. We also know that if we join, all the oil will be literally absorbed by the EU. Norway's good natural resources is great commercial and will serve the EU to their own satisfaction. And what about us? We will be ordered to sit down and shut up.

 

[3mpathy]

I have a quick questoin what is the EU? I am guessing something like "European Union" or the likes of that,but I really don't know much about Europe's Economy,so help would be appreciated.