In central Europe, do I have to list incomplete degrees on my CV when I have a complete degree from outside the EU?

[user366312]

I already have an MSc from outside the EU. But, I also have an incomplete CS degree from Poland which I dropped out of.

European Ph.D. schools often ask for a CV, not "all the transcript from all the attended programs" as they ask in North America.

Therefore, can I skip the information regarding my incomplete degree program(s)?

What is the regulation on this in Poland, and two German-speaking counties in its vicinity: Germany and Austria?

 

[Orodruin]

Regulation is a strong word that implies being mandated by law. It is up to you what you divulge in your CV, but if you have time gaps you can be pretty sure that recruiters are going to ask themselves "what did he do these three empty years in the middle and why is he not stating it on his CV?"

 

[user366312]

I will say that I was working as a freelancer at that time.

 

[Orodruin]

Do you have references to back that up?

 

[user366312]

In Poland, they will not ask for references. The admission is very straightforward. Only, a supervisor is needed.

I don't know about Germany/Austria.

But, no, I don't have references to back that up.

 

[Orodruin]

In general, I would strongly advice against lying on your CV. If this is discovered* you will certainly not be offered a position and if it is discovered after admission it may be grounds for dismissal. I say you would be much better off shaping your story around verifiable facts. You dropped out, so what? That is not necessarily disqualifying and you may have had very good motives to do so or be able to argue that you had.

* ... and it very well may be considering this very public thread.

 

[user366312]

Problem is, I dropped out twice.

 

[Orodruin]

That still does not make it a good idea to lie about it on your CV.

 

[CrysPhys]

European Ph.D. schools often ask for a CV, not "all the transcript from all the attended programs" as they ask in North America.

Just to clarify. Are you applying for a PhD program (to earn a PhD), or are you applying for some other position (job) at a university?

 

[user366312]

PhD program to earn a PhD.

 

[CrysPhys]

I agree with Orodruin: Don't leave any gaps in your CV. Those could (at best) be red flags for suspicious activity; or (at worst) evidence of deceptive intent ("sins of omission"). Just list the university, major, and dates attended. And leave it at that. If asked about it, have a good answer ready. After all, you did move on and complete an MSc elsewhere. It's not clear from your first post, but I assume you completed a bachelor's elsewhere as well?

ETA: On re-reading your first post, it's not clear what degree you were pursuing that you did not complete.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I'm with @Orodruin abd @CrysPhys. Don't leave gaps, or they will assume you were in prison or something. Further, I would not have someone in my lab who was hiding things. I wouldn't be able to trust them.

 

[symbolipoint]

ETA: On re-reading your first post, it's not clear what degree you were pursuing that you did not complete.

@use366312 said in his post #1, this:

I also have an incomplete CS degree from Poland which I dropped out of.

 

[user366312]

I agree with Orodruin: Don't leave any gaps in your CV. Those could (at best) be red flags for suspicious activity; or (at worse) evidence of deceptive intent ("sins of omission"). Just list the university, major, and dates attended. And leave it at that. If asked about it, have a good answer ready. After all, you did move on and complete an MSc elsewhere. It's not clear from your first post, but I assume you completed a bachelor's elsewhere as well?

I dropped out of my 2nd and 3rd MSc. Because of clinical depression issues.



> ETA: On re-reading your first post, it's not clear what degree you were pursuing that you did not complete.

In Poland. MSC in CS.

 

[CrysPhys]

@use366312 said in his post #1, this:

"I also have an incomplete CS degree from Poland which I dropped out of. "

Yes, but it wasn't clear at what level [(best case) BS, MS, or (worst case) a PhD program] that he dropped out of. The OP has now clarified it in Reply #14.

 

[CrysPhys]

I dropped out of my 2nd and 3rd MSc. Because of clinical depression issues.



> ETA: On re-reading your first post, it's not clear what degree you were pursuing that you did not complete.

In Poland. MSC in CS.

OK. So you did complete an MSc and are ready to pursue a PhD. So don't hide the MSc programs that you didn't complete.

 

[Orodruin]

I dropped out of my 2nd and 3rd MSc. Because of clinical depression issues.

I would suggest citing medical issues. You do not need to be specific.

If a prospective employer has a problem with this, I do not think this is an employer you would want in case you have a relapse, although I hope it is under control and properly medicated and followed by a psychiatrist. I have seen cases first hand where an employer has not understood or not cared about this type of issues in an employe and it is not pretty.

 

[CrysPhys]

Regulation is a strong word that implies being mandated by law. It is up to you what you divulge in your CV, but if you have time gaps you can be pretty sure that recruiters are going to ask themselves "what did he do these three empty years in the middle and why is he not stating it on his CV?"

I would suggest citing medical issues. You do not need to be specific.

If a prospective employer has a problem with this, I do not think this is an employer you would want in case you have a relapse, although I hope it is under control and properly medicated and followed by a psychiatrist. I have seen cases first hand where an employer has not understood or not cared about this type of issues in an employe and it is not pretty.

<<Emphasis added>> Hi Orodruin. For my edification, could you clarify European practice? When a student applies for a PhD program, is this the same as applying for a job?

 

[Orodruin]

<<Emphasis added>> Hi Orodruin. For my edification, could you clarify European practice? When a student applies for a PhD program, is this the same as applying for a job?

Europe is too broad to have a unified system. In Sweden, generally yes. You apply for an announced PhD position and get a four-five year employment as a PhD student as well as admission to the PhD program if you are successful. There are some very limited options of alternative funding of PhD students in the case of foreign nationals on exchange programs and for the first year on external funding.

 

[sysprog]

<<Emphasis added>> Hi Orodruin. For my edification, could you clarify European practice? When a student applies for a PhD program, is this the same as applying for a job?

I think that @Orodruin was being gentle and rightful in his advocacy of truthfulness. You're asking about different standards of forthrightness in different nations? Perplexing. You don't have to volunteer every unfavorable detail, but you can't rely on getting away with hiding big things $-$ they become conspicuous by their absence if omitted, and discoverable as falsehoods if disguised $-$ that's true everywhere, and true for schools as well as for jobs $-$ MIT, Oxford, or IBM.

 

[CrysPhys]

I think that @Orodruin was being gentle and rightful in his advocacy of truthfulness. You're asking about different standards of forthrightness in different nations? Perplexing. You don't have to volunteer every unfavorable detail, but you can't rely on getting away with hiding big things $-$ they become conspicuous by their absence if omitted, and discoverable as falsehoods if disguised $-$ that's true everywhere, and true for schools as well as for jobs $-$ MIT, Oxford, or IBM.

No, no, no. You've totally misunderstood my question. I was just confused by Orodruin talking about recruiters and employers in the context of the OP applying for a PhD program.

In the US, applying to a PhD program is considered applying to grad school. Even though a grad student may technically be an employee at some point (as a teaching assistant or research assistant, e.g.), we generally don't consider applying to grad school in the same light as applying for a job. And I've never heard of a recruiter being used to solicit candidates for a PhD program.

To be clear, I strongly encourage the OP not to hide his non-completed program, regardless of whether he is applying for a PhD program or a job, and regardless of which country is involved.

Refer back to my Reply #11:

"Don't leave any gaps in your CV. Those could (at best) be red flags for suspicious activity; or (at worst) evidence of deceptive intent ("sins of omission")."

 

[sysprog]

No, no, no. You've totally misunderstood my question. I was just confused by Orodruin talking about recruiters and employers in the context of the OP applying for a PhD program.

In the US, applying to a PhD program is considered applying to grad school. Even though a grad student may technically be an employee at some point (as a teaching assistant or research assistant, e.g.), we generally don't consider applying to grad school in the same light as applying for a job. And I've never heard of a recruiter being used to solicit candidates for a PhD program.

To be clear, I strongly encourage the OP not to hide his non-completed program, regardless of whether he is applying for a PhD program or a job, and regardless of which country is involved.

Refer back to my Reply #11:

"Don't leave any gaps in your CV. Those could (at best) be red flags for suspicious activity; or (at worst) evidence of deceptive intent ("sins of omission")."

Oops $-$ my mistake $-$ I faultily conflated your question with the OP's titular question $\dots$