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In Honor of Judas

  1. Apr 18, 2003 #1

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    It's Good Friday. The day Jesus died. (Assuming Christianity is correct, of course) Hurrah.

    But amidst the celebrations, the easter eggs, we forgot one other person who died that day. The forgotten hero of the Gospel.

    Judas Iscariot, the traitor.

    The fact is, Judas was not, could not be a sinner. His crime of betraying Christ was written, at least allegedly in prophecy, and hence not a sin. He did not do so freely. His reasons were not that of personal greed, but love, however misguided, of his nation. 6 Dinars was not enough to betray anyone for money.

    Now, ask yourself where Christianity would be without Judas. We would be without the ressurection. We would be without the potent symbol of self sacrifice. We would be without the symbol of the cross itself. Christianity would be at most a minor cult, a small off-shoot of Judaism. Other religions like Islam may be in a similar condition.

    And remember, where Jesus just sacrificed his life for ours, and is rewarded by an eternity of rule in Heaven, Judas sacrificed his eternal life so Jesus could be raised up, and us with him. It is he who will suffer unjustly because of the need for a tool for God's great plan. It is his blood, his guilt, his loss of choice that heaven rests upon.

    So, if you are a Christian in this Easter, remember to offer a little prayer for Judas. The man who did evil for the good of mankind.
     
  2. jcsd
  3. Apr 18, 2003 #2
    When you hang reason up on the cross what do you get? Treason ...
     
  4. Apr 18, 2003 #3
    the fact that someone was bound to do it does not make the one who did any less guilty.
     
  5. Apr 18, 2003 #4

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    Oh?

    From "is homosexuality a sin"....
    Is the bullet guilty of murder?

    And treason against whom? To rome, the nation that ruled the region, Jesus was a traitor, an enemy of the state.
     
  6. Apr 18, 2003 #5
    No, the "T"-Reason was committed by those who hung Him up on the cross ...
     
  7. Apr 18, 2003 #6
    that does nothing to prove Judas was predestined to betray Jesus, nor that the bullet was made to murder anyone.
     
  8. Apr 18, 2003 #7

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    Matthew 26:2 "As you know, the passover is two days away - and the son of man will be handed over to be crucified"

    Now, someone has to do it...

    Luke 22:3 Now Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the twelve.

    So was it his free will?

    John 13:26 Jesus answered, "It is the one to whom I will give this piece of bread when I have dipped it in the dish." Then, dipping the piece of bread, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, son of Simon. <snip> "What you are about to do, do quickly"

    So was he not clearly predestined from this point?

    I think the bible is pretty clear here.
     
  9. Apr 18, 2003 #8
    misinterpretation by the orthodox jews

    Judas was part of the Isrealite resistance like Jesus and the other generals of Jesus's "army of love"

    According to the book, Holy Blood, Holy Grail... Jesus used the secret "disciple" Simon to stand in for Jesus and Jesus's exicution by the Romans and the Orthodox Judean types... with big beards.

    Judas was used to concretely identify the "Jesus" that the old sorry butt orthodox hebrews of Jewish faith had only breifly seen during some appearances and lectures... from far away.

    So, Judas was their eyes and ears... leading them to believe that Simon was Jesus.

    Simon "took the bullet" for Jesus... because Judas pointed to Simon as being Jesus.

    This is a well exicuted (pun partially unintended) plan that was layed out during the days before the supposed "rat-fink", Judas, turned in the head of the Isrealite Resistance, Jesus of Nazareth... son of Joseph... a rich man who bribed the Romans to conduct the exicution on his lands. (This was a ploy to attempt to revive Simon after the famous display of cruelty that no doubt killed Simon, the martyr, the brave stand in for Jesus)

    Jesus made ready passage for his sons and his wife, Mary Magdelene, to Southern France (not the town of Remulak) and Jesus himself laid low for some time afterwards. With acception of a few appearances to his followers who decided that Jesus had "risen from the dead".

    As I mentioned, these interpretations of 2000 year old events are from the book the Holy Blood, Holy Grail. The events are reported to have been researched via Hebrew and Roman records and other existing documentation from the period.

    This is what led up to blowing out the contents of eggs, today. Perhaps there is a sub-conscious reason that we disguise eggs as beautiful works of fractal and other arrangements... in a kind of reflection of the diguise of Simon as Jesus.

    Not likely.
     
  10. Apr 18, 2003 #9
    were did they come up with that? Simon and peter are the same person you know?

    and FZ+, that is quite a stretch to go from people speculating that Judas was up to something to saying he was predestined to do it. not a whole lot of logic going on in the argument either.
     
  11. Apr 18, 2003 #10

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    The gospel of John.

    It wasn't people speculating. It was Jesus predicting before the actualy betrayal that Judas would betray him. Now, unless Jesus has a habit of lying...
     
  12. Apr 18, 2003 #11
    FZ, where did you dig that up popular view .Com? The magic of the story of christ is not the miracles or weather or not it was christ who said the words or his disciples or the scribe down the street. It was their correlation to reality and their unfolding of truth. The cross may or not be the symbol, maybe it would be a fish. Hey you have hope.
     
  13. Apr 18, 2003 #12

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    No, I made it up myself.

    Which ever way you look at it, the concept of Christ's sacrifice is central to Christianity. The sending of his son to die for our sins in crucial, as is the idea of being killed by man. The use of prophecy in correlation to earlier Isiaah scriptures seals Judas' fate. Much of magic of the story of christ lies in the crucification and the ressurection. Without the death, without a popular martyr, Christianity would be nothing like what it is today. Christianity should observe what it owes to Judas.

    And perhaps, Judas should one day be forgiven. After all, was he not doing what he thought was a good thing? How do you know that you today, doing what you feel is good, would not be punished as Judas was? Perhaps Bin Laden is Jesus, or maybe Saddam is. Is it just to punish his foolishness in this way?

    Why is there no hope for Judas, the tool of God and Satan?
     
  14. Apr 18, 2003 #13
    First of all, in order for Satan to enter Judas, as the Bible states, Judas would have to have not been one of Jesus' 'children'. Also, God, hence Jesus, is supposed to be able to know the future, and obviously know what we think. So, Jesus, by saying Judas would betray him, was not sealing his fate, only making an observation, although I do not know the significants of making this public.

    Don't take the Bible literally, its just a good book, I would like to see FICTION printed on the outside like all the other fictitious books:smile:

    EDIT: If I was sitting there with Jesus and he told me I was going to betray him then that would weigh pretty heavily on me. Would I sacrifice myself, even though I had no intent on betraying him, to provide truth to Biblical prophecy, or should I live and perhaps ruin everything? I think Judas' choice is clear.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2003
  15. Apr 18, 2003 #14
    Both binny boy and Saddamnfootstuck in the door have doubles to take the nails and thorns of the "oppressors"... but, I think they prefer CASH.

    Judas was as brave as the rest of the men and women fighting the oppression of the Romans and the Orthodox Judaens who quivered and bowed to the Romans in an attempt to maintain their gold and silver.

    Judas was one of the original Psyop Forces, diseminating mis-information about his leader, Jesus... the freedom fighter.

    The rest is all dabbling in the kleenex gossip of black robed grandmothers.

    The symbol of the cross with a mangled corpse on it is a reminder to the illiterate/slave masses of what happens to those who question "authority"... that's it.

    How dieing, nailed to a wooden structure, equates with "forgivness for mankind" I'll never figure out, from any book.

    How the very concept of eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Jesus is different from Vampiristic and Cannabalistic rituals beats me.

    (It is a considered opinion of some scholars that PASSOVER is representative of a time when a large spherical object "passed over" Egyptian skys, causing all sorts of "miracles" during the time of the exodus of the Hebrews out of Egypt and out of the tyranny of the Pharoh Ramses.)

    Have a good friday!
    Have some toast.
     
  16. Apr 18, 2003 #15
    I have no qualms with Judas, why do you have a complex. FZ, what did you do exactly? Just busting your chops I think. God does not judge, the creation has this cool little function that is intrinsic to creation itself.

    There is one death that must be faced before truth may become a reality to any individual. It is the confrontation of the the real question of lights out even if reiencarnation is a reality. There is a step when something must go, will you still be there? When you face this you will understand and not until.

    There is forgivness every step of the way for all that is done. The question is can we forgive ourselves.

    Life sometimes creates a vicious circle, the key is when you are high to know that the circle will repeat and muster the strength to step outside of the circle on to a new path a real path. "Ground hog day", good movie.
     
  17. Apr 18, 2003 #16
    Which version of which bible told you Simon and Peter are the same person.

    Is it the same one which brands Mary Magdelene a whore?

    Who are the editors? When did they edit? Why would they edit the words of Jesus's friends? What sort of gain did the church seek in editing these manuscripts? Did the church point blank decide Mary M. was a whore because someone told them Jesus was celebate?

    Who, in Gd's name, has butchered the history of Jesus and his peoples?

    Answer: Everyone since 34AD. That's what gossip is all about.
     
  18. Apr 18, 2003 #17
    The bible is as good as the desire of the reader to understand it. Much like physics. I was taught in school of the big bang and that created the entire universe etc..... I knew it was wrong and illogical that all matter in creation be located in one place. I did not know the answer, but I knew what was not the answer. That is the key to any understanding, not settling for answer.
     
  19. Apr 18, 2003 #18
    I know this is not a debate of how valid the big bang theory is, but I must say, high school sciences don't do this theory half the justice it deserves, this may be in part due to the debate of Creation vs Big Bang, so they simply teach you the scientific facts of the BB and leave it at that, as not to piss anybody off.

    But you are very correct, if you don't have any will to believe the Bible then you can easily find fault in it to not believe, as with science. You must accept the Bible on faith alone.
     
  20. Apr 18, 2003 #19
    I'm in the mood for a p?????g contest. I bet I win and it won't mean squat because you still won't understand.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    I know this is not a debate of how valid the big bang theory is, but I must say, high school sciences don't do this theory half the justice it deserves, this may be in part due to the debate of Creation vs Big Bang, so they simply teach you the scientific facts of the BB and leave it at that, as not to piss anybody off.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    I figured out what universal therory was in 1991 on my own steam. I would be willing to bet you have no clue. I would probably give odds on this but it would be stealing when you know the outcome before hand.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    But you are very correct, if you don't have any will to believe the Bible then you can easily find fault in it to not believe, as with science. You must accept the Bible on faith alone.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    I believe very little in life in general and belive nothing out of the bible or a physics book for that matter. I know for a fact you cannot say the same.
     
  21. Apr 18, 2003 #20
    wow carl that is quite a vulgar tongue you have there, i am sorry as i didn't mean to stir you by any means; i suppose i might have gone better if i quoted the source straight off. regardless, i don't think there is anything nearly so demeaning about Mary Magdalene in the standard translations though i can't say i have actually read it cover to cover. however, makes the fact that Simon is Peter rather clear in every version i have checked, Matthew 4:18 and 16:17-18 are probably the most obvious spots in kjv and such. what do you find so distasteful about this anyway?
     
  22. Apr 18, 2003 #21
    also, what in the world are you calling a possable lie FZ+? all you presented as quotes from Jesus is this:

    and doesn't rightly come out as a lie no matter what happened after the point. honestly, i know some religious nuts bring up some absurd arguments, but i don't rightly see that as a valid excuse to make up absurd arguments against religion.
     
  23. Apr 19, 2003 #22

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    I meant unless Jesus lies about being able to make prophecies, Judas is no longer free. Maybe I'll post the full quote, since that is indeed a little ambiguous....

    From King James' Version
    Er... I wasn't arguing against religion. I am assuming the bible is correct here. Can people get a grip and see what I am saying?

    And TENYEARS, let's not get into personal attacks. Why do you reject this idea? According to the majority of such dogma, Judas alone will NOT be forgiven. I am saying that this is wrong. Do you believe in the ideas of the bible, it's values, or do you want you interpretation to be made for you, directly in hate at a convenient target of Judas? I have made no comment as to the validity of the bible here. And forgiving other is a very important step in forgiving ourselves. Would the god you know and love forgo that step for Judas? What do you really think?

    1. Hmm... Weren't all man supposed to be Jesus' "children"? And if he was not, then isn't that more evidence of predestination?
    2. There was discussion some time ago on this. It was agreed that any observation in terms of prophecy must neccessarily end free will, in kinda the fashion of quantum mechanics. If Jesus said it, it must be true, for Jesus is prophecising it. And because this action is predicted, Judas is not free to avoid it. Even if he wanted to change his mind, to throw back the 30 silver coins, he could not do so. In the act, he was not free.
     
  24. Apr 19, 2003 #23

    pick one please, and do it well.

    also i should point out that i am not a Christian so i am not exactly the best authority on their dogma; but last i knew anyone who commits blasphemy is subject to the same rules as Judas. regardless, i still don't buy you argument that Judas was robed of free will by any means as the account of John you presented shows me nothing of the sort. if i see a man haphazardly skiing of towards and unmarked cliff and i prophesies that the guy is going to take a fall; that does not remove the fact that it is his own damn fault for letting it come to be. i don't see why it would be any different if Jesus said it either.
     
  25. Apr 19, 2003 #24
    If a drop of water comes down a mirror it falls a certain way. It's path was not predetermined and yet it had no choice and yet it made a choice at every point down the mirror. If you reran the sequence into infinity over and over it would happen the same exact way. The drop may have cause an affects along the way and and this is paid in full by the law of causality(Physics).
     
  26. Apr 19, 2003 #25

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    If man was as deterministic as a drop of water, then there would be no free will. Life is just a movie that we watch. We have no real control. So, do you believe in free will? With free will, there must be capacity to chose. This choice was denied Judas.

    Jesus is god. His word MUST be truth. Hence the rather large difference. And the Satan bit is significant too...

    Matthew 26:24
    The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.

    Recurrent references exist that Jesus would die after some form of betrayal. This meant that someone had to bite the spiritual bullet so to speak.
     
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