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In vacuo oscillation

  1. Apr 10, 2005 #1
    Hi, I'm Steve, the new guy. After a long literature search, I have been unable to find any reference to experimental confirmation of neutrinos of any type oscillating in a vacuum. All of the many models under discussion seem to assume that they oscillate, but nowhere have I been able to find a measurement of the mixing angle. There are many, many articles which show measurement of oscillation while passing thru condensed matter-- and none which demonstrate this in vacuo. Can anybody point me at a reference which doesn't simply assume this, or one which measures it? Thanks.
  2. jcsd
  3. Apr 10, 2005 #2
    The closest one can get to a 'pure vacuum' experiment is the measurements done on solar neutrinos - although of course such neutrinos have to pass through the Sun in order to reach us. You can look up the papers by the SNO or SuperKamiokande collaborations for that purpose.
  4. Apr 10, 2005 #3
    I have sampled those, not exhaustively searched them. One would think, assuming solar emission constant, that the difference between perihelion and aphelion would show the effect, if it exists. One would also have to correct for distance-squared dropoff. Can it be that the statistical universe is still too small?
  5. Apr 11, 2005 #4

    Meir Achuz

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    Some of these references should help.

    References for hep-ph/0503079
    This information is courtesy of SLAC's SPIRES-HEP preprint index.
    Result of SLAC-SPIRES search:
    1. hep-ph/0411274 [abs, ps, pdf, other] :
    Title: 2004 TASI Lectures on Neutrino Physics
    Authors: Andre de Gouvea (Northwestern U.)
    Comments: 62 pages, 17 figures

    2. hep-ex/0104049 [abs, ps, pdf, other] :
    Title: Evidence for Neutrino Oscillations from the Observation of Electron Anti-neutrinos in a Muon Anti-Neutrino Beam
    Authors: A. Aguilar, L.B. Auerbach, R.L. Burman, D.O. Caldwell, E.D. Church, A.K. Cochran, J.B. Donahue, A. Fazely, G.T. Garvey, R.M. Gunasingha, R. Imlay, W.C. Louis, R. Majkic, A. Malik, W. Metcalf, G.B. Mills, V. Sandberg, D. Smith, I. Stancu, M. Sung, R. Tayloe, G.J. VanDalen, W. Vernon, N. Wadia, D.H. White, S. Yellin
    Comments: 71 pages,28 figures, 17 tables
    Journal-ref: Phys.Rev. D64 (2001) 112007

    3. SLAC database (no arXiv entry):
    Title: Review Of Particle Physics. Particle Data Group
    First-Author: Eidelman
    Journal-ref: Phys.Lett. B592 (2004) 1
    4. hep-ph/0412099 [abs, ps, pdf, other] :
    Title: Theory of Neutrinos
    Authors: R.N. Mohapatra (discussion leader), S. Antusch, K.S. Babu, G. Barenboim, Mu-Chun Chen, S. Davidson, A. de Gouvea, P. de Holanda, B. Dutta, Y. Grossman, A. Joshipura, J. Kersten, Y.Y. Keum, S.F. King, P. Langacker, M. Lindner, W. Loinaz, I. Masina, I. Mocioiu, S. Mohanty, H. Murayama, S. Pascoli, S. Petcov, A. Pilaftsis, P. Ramond, M. Ratz, W. Rodejohann, R. Shrock, T. Takeuchi, T. Underwood, F. Vissani, L. Wolfenstein
    Comments: 50 Pages, 10 figures, theory discussion group report to the APS neutrino study. v2 - very minor corrections, references added

    5. hep-ph/0503086 [abs, ps, pdf, other] :
    Title: Neutrinos Have Mass - So What?
    Authors: Andre de Gouvea
    Comments: invited brief review, 15 pages, 1 eps figure, typo corrected, reference added
    Journal-ref: Mod.Phys.Lett. A19 (2004) 2799-2813

    6. hep-ph/0407155 [abs, ps, pdf, other] :
    Title: Normal vs. Inverted Hierarchy in Type I Seesaw Models
    Authors: Carl H. Albright (Northern Illinois U. and Fermilab)
    Comments: 10 pages including 1 figure; improved version with additional illustration of results for whole class of models with charged lepton mass matrices diagonal in flavor space; accepted for publication in Physics Letters B
    Journal-ref: Phys.Lett. B599 (2004) 285-293

    7. hep-ph/0405172 [abs, ps, pdf, other] :
    Title: Status of global fits to neutrino oscillations
    Authors: M. Maltoni, T. Schwetz, M.A. Tortola, J.W.F. Valle
    Comments: 41 pages, 22 figures, 2 tables. Updated version of two, three and four-neutrino oscillation analyses including new K2K and solar neutrino data as well as detailed analysis of the KamLAND results and their impact on constraining theta_13. Accepted review for publication in the Focus Issue on Neutrino Physics of New Journal of Physics" edited by F. Halzen, M. Lindner, and A. Suzuki; v4: short appendix added providing updated results which take into account a new background source in Kamland data
    Journal-ref: New J.Phys. 6 (2004) 122

    8. hep-ph/0411252 [abs, ps, pdf, other] :
    Title: Earth Matter Effects at Very Long Baselines and the Neutrino Mass Hierarchy
    Authors: Raj Gandhi, Pomita Ghoshal, Srubabati Goswami, Poonam Mehta, S Uma Sankar
    Comments: 38 pages, 26 figures

    9. hep-ph/0408070 [abs, ps, pdf, other] :
    Title: Untangling CP Violation and the Mass Hierarchy in Long Baseline Experiments
    Authors: Olga Mena, Stephen Parke (Fermilab)
    Comments: 15 pages, Latex, 4 postscript figures. Submitted to New Journal of Physics, ``Focus on Neutrino Physics'' issue
    Journal-ref: Phys.Rev. D70 (2004) 093011

    10. hep-ph/0403068 [abs, ps, pdf, other] :
    Title: Prospects of accelerator and reactor neutrino oscillation experiments for the coming ten years
    Authors: P. Huber, M. Lindner, M. Rolinec, T. Schwetz, W. Winter
    Comments: 38 pages, 13 figures, Eqs. (1) and (5) corrected, small corrections in Figs. 8, 9, and Tab. 4, discussion improved, ref. added, version to appear in PRD, high resolution figures are available at this http URL
    Journal-ref: Phys.Rev. D70 (2004) 073014

    11. hep-ph/0301210 [abs, ps, pdf, other] :
    Title: The Complementarity of Eastern and Western Hemisphere Long-Baseline Neutrino Oscillation Experiments
    Authors: Hisakazu Minakata (Tokyo Metropolitan), Hiroshi Nunokawa (Estadual Paulista), Stephen Parke (Fermilab)
    Comments: 21 pages, Latex, 3 postscript figures
    Journal-ref: Phys.Rev. D68 (2003) 013010

    12. hep-ph/0210192 [abs, ps, pdf, other] :
    Title: Oscillation Physics with a Neutrino Factory
    Authors: M.Apollonio et al. (CERN working group on oscillation physics at the Neutrino Factory)
    Comments: 105 pages, to appear on the CERN Yellow Report on the Neutrino Factory Warning: to accomplish arXiv submission rules on file sizes (650M against the original compressed version of 2.5G), figures in this paper have been converted to bitmap, thus resulting in a worse quality. A better-quality version of this paper can be found in www.cern.ch/campanel/main.ps[/URL] for comments: [email]Mario.Campanelli@cern.ch[/email] (editor)

    13. hep-ph/0501037 [abs, ps, pdf, other] :
    Title: Resolving parameter degeneracies in long-baseline experiments by atmospheric neutrino data
    Authors: P. Huber, M. Maltoni, T. Schwetz
    Comments: 25 pages, 10 figures

    14. hep-ph/0407336 [abs, ps, pdf, other] :
    Title: A question of hierarchy: matter effects with atmospheric neutrinos and anti-neutrinos
    Authors: D. Indumathi, M.V.N. Murthy
    Comments: 36 pages revtex with 14 eps figures; new section on statistical significance when detector resolution is included
    Journal-ref: Phys.Rev. D71 (2005) 013001

    15. hep-ph/0305152 [abs, ps, pdf, other] :
    Title: Atmospheric Neutrino Oscillations, theta(13) and Neutrino Mass Hierarchy
    Authors: J. Bernabeu, Sergio Palomares-Ruiz (Valencia U.), S. T. Petcov (SISSA, Trieste & INFN, Trieste)
    Comments: 22 pp
    Journal-ref: Nucl.Phys. B669 (2003) 255-276

    16. hep-ph/0501184 [abs, ps, pdf, other] :
    Title: Supernova neutrinos can tell us the neutrino mass hierarchy independently of flux models
    Authors: V. Barger, Patrick Huber, Danny Marfatia
    Comments: 15 pages, 3 figures

    17. hep-ph/0412100 [abs, ps, pdf, other] :
    Title: Identifying the neutrino mass hierarchy with supernova neutrinos
    Authors: M. Kachelriess, R. Tomas
    Comments: 10 pages, 11 figures. Based on talks given at Quarks04 and 5th Rencontres du Vietnam

    18. hep-ph/0303210 [abs, ps, pdf, other] :
    Title: Detecting the Neutrino Mass Hierarchy with a Supernova at IceCube
    Authors: A.S.Dighe, M.T.Keil, G.G.Raffelt (MPP, Munich)
    Comments: 19 pages, 6 Figs, final version accepted by JCAP, some references added
    Journal-ref: JCAP 0306 (2003) 005

    19. hep-ph/0302033 [abs, ps, pdf, other] :
    Title: Probing the neutrino mass hierarchy and the 13-mixing with supernovae
    Authors: C.Lunardini, A.Yu.Smirnov
    Comments: LaTeX, 56 pages, 12 figures; a few clarifications added; typos corrected. Version to appear in JCAP
    Journal-ref: JCAP 0306 (2003) 009

    20. hep-ph/0209117 [abs, ps, pdf, other] :
    Title: Long Baseline Neutrino Experiments and the LOW solution -- What is Left to Do and How Well Can It Be Done
    Authors: Gabriela Barenboim, Andre de Gouvea (Fermilab)
    Comments: 14 pages

    21. hep-ph/0002064 [abs, ps, pdf, other] :
    Title: The Dark Side of the Solar Neutrino Parameter Space
    Authors: Andre de Gouvea (CERN), Alexander Friedland, Hitoshi Murayama (UC Berkeley, LBNL)
    Comments: 4 pages, 3 figures, uses psfig. Fixed typos in Eq. (3). An imprecise comment in the footnote removed
    Journal-ref: Phys.Lett. B490 (2000) 125-130

    22. hep-ex/0503053 [abs, pdf] :
    Title: NOvA Proposal to Build a 30 Kiloton Off-Axis Detector to Study Neutrino Oscillations in the Fermilab NuMI Beamline
    Authors: The NOvA Collaboration, D. Ayres, et al
    Comments: 112 pages

    23. hep-ex/0210005 [abs, ps, pdf, other] :
    Title: Letter of Intent to build an Off-axis Detector to study numu to nue oscillations with the NuMI Neutrino Beam
    Authors: D. Ayres et.al
    Comments: 111 pages

    24. hep-ph/0303081 [abs, ps, pdf, other] :
    Title: Very Long Baseline Neutrino Oscillation Experiment for Precise Measurements of Mixing Parameters and CP Violating Effects
    Authors: M.V. Diwan, D. Beavis, Mu-Chun Chen, J. Gallardo, R.L. Hahn, S. Kahn, H. Kirk, W. Marciano, W. Morse, Z. Parsa, N. Samios, Y. Semertzidis, B. Viren, W. Weng, P. Yamin, M. Yeh, W. Frati, K. Lande, A.K. Mann, R.Van Berg, P. Wildenhain, J.R. Klein, I. Mocioiu, R. Shrock, K.T. McDonald
    Comments: 12 pages, 10 figures
    Journal-ref: Phys.Rev. D68 (2003) 012002

    25. hep-ex/0106019 [abs, ps, pdf, other] :
    Title: The JHF-Kamioka neutrino project
    Authors: Y.Itow, T.Kajita, K.Kaneyuki, M.Shiozawa, Y.Totsuka, Y.Hayato, T.Ishida, T.Ishii, T.Kobayashi, T.Maruyama, K.Nakamura, Y.Obayashi, Y.Oyama, M.Sakuda, M.Yoshida, S.Aoki, T.Hara, A.Suzuki, A.Ichikawa, T.Nakaya, K.Nishikawa, T.Hasegawa, K.Ishihara, A.Suzuki, A.Konaka
    Comments: 29 pages, 23 figures

    26. hep-ex/0402041 [abs, ps, pdf, other] :
    Title: A New Nuclear Reactor Neutrino Experiment to Measure theta 13
    Authors: K. Anderson, et al
    Comments: 167 pages, 57 figures, 125 authors, 40 Institutions White Paper Report on Using Nuclear Reactors to search for a value of theta 13

    27. hep-ph/0112074 [abs, ps, pdf, other] :
    Title: The LMA MSW Solution of the Solar Neutrino Problem, Inverted Neutrino Mass Hierarchy and Reactor Neutrino Experiments
    Authors: S.T. Petcov, M. Piai
    Comments: Results and conclusions unchanged. Few clarifying remarks, footnotes and few references added. Version to be published in Phys. Lett. B
    Journal-ref: Phys.Lett. B533 (2002) 94-106

    28. hep-ph/0306017 [abs, ps, pdf, other] :
    Title: Precision Neutrino Oscillation Physics with an Intermediate Baseline Reactor Neutrino Experiment
    Authors: Sandhya Choubey, S.T. Petcov, M. Piai
    Comments: 25 pages
    Journal-ref: Phys.Rev. D68 (2003) 113006

    29. SLAC database (no arXiv entry):
    Title: A Novel Concept For A Anti-Nu/E / Nu/E Neutrino Factory: The Beta Beam
    First-Author: Zucchelli
    Journal-ref: Phys.Lett. B532 (2002) 166
    30. hep-ex/0302007 [abs, ps, pdf, other] :
    Title: Physics Reach of the Beta Beam
    Authors: Mauro Mezzetto
    Comments: Invited talk at the Nufact02 Workshop, Imperial College of Science, Technology and Medicine, London, July 2002
    Journal-ref: J.Phys. G29 (2003) 1771-1776

    31. hep-ph/0312068 [abs, ps, pdf, other] :
    Title: Neutrino oscillation physics with a higher $\gamma$ $\beta$-beam
    Authors: J. Burguet-Castell, D. Casper, J.J. Gomez-Cadenas, P.Hernandez, F.Sanchez
    Comments: An error corrected, conclusions unchanged. Revised version to appear in Nuclear Physics B
    Journal-ref: Nucl.Phys. B695 (2004) 217-240
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 21, 2017
  6. Apr 11, 2005 #5


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    There is indeed a difference between perihelion and aphelion, but its not quite for the reasons you might expect.

    The dynamics of neutrino oscillations in dense mediums is a bit of an art form, and usuallly not taught at all outside of specialist circles as its rather technical.

    In general you end up with a validation of the MSW effect
  7. Apr 11, 2005 #6
    "There is indeed a difference between perihelion and aphelion, but its not quite for the reasons you might expect."

    And... is this documented? I have special anti-jargon hip-boots.

    The precise reason for my original question was to discriminate between matter-induced effects (MSW, etc.) and 'intrinsic' oscillation, which should take place in the proper time of the particle, and therefore be dependent on total energy. Was my question unclear? Steve

    PS BTW Meir, thanx for ref. list. I already had most of them, except for the SN articles, which may be very useful. S
  8. Apr 11, 2005 #7


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    I mean its way beyond our present capabilities to somehow do away with MSW corruption in an experiment hence you have to include that effect. However, the good fit to the data that a MSW model gives is a good indication that yes indeed neutrinos mix in vacuo. I mean the entire premise of that model is in that very basic fact; you simply would not observe such a thing if they never mixed. Moreover massless neutrino models are disfavored by something like 5 sigma.

    And yes indeed you can get values for the mixing angle and delta mass squared etc through a conglomeration of various means. Afaik the experimental bounds are still pretty ugly, and model dependant of course (I think the four mixing scenario is favored though). I believe they are pretty dependant too on stellar modeling so thats another potential complication.

    You are probably looking for a fullon comprehensive experimental survey of solar neutrino experiments. Perhaps one of the links above will give it to you.
  9. Apr 11, 2005 #8
    massless neutrinos


    <<Moreover massless neutrino models are disfavored by something like 5 sigma.>>
    What do you mean by that ? What does sigma stand for ?
    I was told that,in the recent years, some experiments proved that the neutrinos have mass ; you seem to be saying that this is only more likely, but not a fact proven 100 %.
  10. Apr 11, 2005 #9
    "I mean the entire premise of that model is in that very basic fact; you simply would not observe such a thing if they never mixed."

    Precisely the point-- a model-dependent assumption, not an experimentally demonstrated fact-- and it really doen't matter which model is being talked about.

    "There is indeed a difference between perihelion and aphelion, but its not quite for the reasons you might expect."

    What is the difference? What reasons are given, and by whom? I'm not trying to be a PIA here, but the literature is pretty difficult to search on this particular question. Everybody includes in vacuo oscillation in their assumption set; apparently, nobody has quantified it. It's enough to make me wish for the next supernova (more than 5 KPc away). Steve
  11. Apr 12, 2005 #10


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    Here is a review article I've used before, its fairly comprehensive and the latter sections go through a lot of the experimental data and what they find.

    http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/hep-ph/pdf/0202/0202058.pdf [Broken]

    Im afraid you're not going to find what you are looking for though, perhaps atmospheric neutrino data is more along the lines of what you would want.
    Neutrinos are notoriously difficult to detect due to their weak cross sections with matter, which is why you want large sources of them (like from the sun) and a huge bath of stuff occupying a large volume in order to see just a few chemical reactions.

    Hell even their very existance historically was purely indirect! They were inferred by energetics (missing momentum). I do however think the evidence is pretty compelling that they do mix and are massive. Theoretically it makes good sense, and its hard to envision a model where they don't and we still see what we see.
    Last edited by a moderator: May 2, 2017
  12. Apr 13, 2005 #11
    Thank you , Haelfix.
    Tough lecture :eek: :yuck: :smile:
  13. Apr 16, 2005 #12
    [sigh] another lovely equation for the in vacuo oscillation, with enough unknown/unconstrained parameters to render it unmeaningful.

    Assume, for the sake of discussion, that the total neutrino flux at the solar surface is relatively constant, or at least stochastically so. We represent it by the ordered sextuplet (e, anti-e, mu, anti-mu, tau, anti-tau). Somewhere on earth, and not necessarily at the same location, we have large detectors for each type. At each detector , the detection data are binned according to zenith angle, recoil energy and distance from Sol at time of reception. By comparing only within identical zenith angles and recoil energies, we should be able to notice a smooth shift in the neutrino spectrum. After correcting for inverse-square signal dropoff (which only affects the amplitude of the signal, not its spectral distribution), any residual variation in a "sufficiently large" sample space should be directly attributable to smooth variations caused by L-sub-vac, the oscillation length in a vacuum, with respect to Earth’s orbital distance.

    Assuming only that solar spectrum is long-term constant, the detection efficiency at each detector can be factored out or, just as usefully, expressed as a ratio of some other detector.

    The reason for additional binning by recoil energy is that oscillations take place in the proper time of the particle. At higher energies = higher velocities, the oscillation length appears longer due to the slowdown of the particle’s clock WRT ours.

    Discounting for the moment our inability to distinguish taus and sterile variants, there still should be smooth variation in the flavors we can see. The only remaining difficulty is, how large is “sufficiently large”?

    If the various consortia and soi-disant collaborations share data, there are conclusions to be drawn. Steve
  14. Apr 27, 2005 #13


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    (A belated) Welcome to Physics Forums, wstevenbrown!

    I assume you check John Bahcall's home page regularly? You might also have a chance to buttonhole an attendee or five at the next relevant neutrino conference (I don't know, off the top of my head, when/where that will be), or quizz the posters long distance.
  15. Apr 30, 2005 #14
    I asked my original question of an expert. The answer I received was not to the question I asked, so I presume it was filtered thru a secretary or lab assistant. Nevertheless, here it is:

    As far as I understand, you proposed analysis has been done in a
    combined way using a more general description for the propagation of the
    neutrinos that includes both vacuum and matter effects. The bottom line
    is that the existing experiments show clearly evidence for matter
    effects and that vacuum effects will show up in an isolated way only in
    future experiments at low energies.

    John Bahcall

    I remain curious why the question I asked hits everyone skew-wise, and never gets past their assumption set. Best regards-- Steve
  16. Apr 30, 2005 #15


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    Would you consider re-framing the question, to reduce the possibility of it getting trapped and re-formatted in 'the assumption set'?
  17. May 1, 2005 #16


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    "Discounting for the moment our inability to distinguish taus and sterile variants, there still should be smooth variation in the flavors we can see. "

    Why do you think it needs to be smooth at all, it might be in a vacuum but certainly not in matter! Again you *will* find a variation (by a variation I mean delta epsilon = 0 is disfavored by several standard deviations in a root mean square parameter space survey), and hence you will find some constraints on the bounds of the various vacuum mixing angles but again there are model dependencies implicit in the calculation. And yes the proper length of the oscillation is important when you have detectors set up, but this is all well understood and implicit in the models, not to mention rather irrelevant as the detector lengths tend to be large. All this is in the paper I linked too earlier.
  18. May 1, 2005 #17
    "Why do you think it needs to be smooth at all, it might be in a vacuum but certainly not in matter!"

    If you read my proposition carefully, you will note that binning the data by zenith angle and recoil energy causes all matter effects to cancel. I'm simply tired of seeing the in vacuo component treated as an integration constant. If it exists, it is measurable. What will be measured is changes in the observed solar neutrino spectrum which depend solely on distance from Sol.

    I believe I will take Nereid's suggestion to recast the question in more comprehensible form, so as to be unmistakably clear, instead of running into everyone's expectation values. You may not hear from me for awhile on this subject. Best regards-- Steve :eek:
  19. May 1, 2005 #18


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    "If you read my proposition carefully, you will note that binning the data by zenith angle and recoil energy causes all matter effects to cancel./"

    Yes and im saying that does not follow and you would have to prove that assertion very carefully (and when you look at it carefully you will realize it can't work). Moreover matter effects are not simply an integration constant.
  20. May 1, 2005 #19


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    Another suggestion if I may ... in your OP, you said: "oscillation while passing thru condensed matter -- and none which demonstrate this in vacuo" (my emphases). I'm curious as to what you'd count as 'in vacuo', and where 'condensed matter' ends ... as you know, there are no 'true vacuums' (even the most rarified radio bubble of an AGN contains some baryons, and there are neutrinos and (presumably) DM everywhere). For the purposes of your enquiry, is the 'condensed matter' that we earthlings usually think of (in OOMs, a range of 3, ~0.1 to 10 g/cc) what you have in mind? You seem to be interested in proton/nucleon densities (e.g. per m^3), but it's quite unclear (to me, at least).

    BTW, if you don't like using the WRAP quote tags button (that's the one on the right, like a speech bubble), you can type in [ quote] and [/ quote] (without the spaces, of course) - it will make your posts easier to read (by clearly distinguishing what you said from what what the person you're quoting said).
  21. May 1, 2005 #20
    May I suggest you read this first:http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-ph?0503028

    before reformatting your question?

    I have recently on another forum inquired into the Neutrino Density, and 'perfect fluid' models and experiments( perfect-fluids) can be seen as a 'perfect_vacuum', or as damn near to.

    Some recent condensed models have recently been taking a specific route into low energy density 'acceleron-matter' whose functions change with neutrino density.

    Dark Energy, is being touted as Neutrino Flux, the vacuum of Space behaves as 'perfect' fluid, obvious dependant upon the local Density.
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