Inertia, Apathy, Boredom, Depression

[N_Quire]

Has anyone experienced a time of apathy and intertia in which you are fully aware of all that needs to be done and yet don't do it? Has it ever come after a period of intense work and passionate commitment to a project, work, a person?

I ask because I am at the end of a seven-month period of intense, sever pain due to a back problem. Throughout this time I have managed to stay reasonably happy and focused on getting well. Recently though I have had to battle a sense that I might not get better and this has led to a certain amount of lethargy and lack of commitment to the future. The feeling will go away of course but it is curious how the mind can shut down when it doesn't want to play ball anymore.

 

[J-Man]

My magic 8-ball says, "the future is uncertain."
I can sympathize with your situation, but the main thought that comes to mind is that this kind of feeling may not simply "go away". It more likely will take some kind of action or thought process to get over it; sadly I don't know the secret.
I would try to look on the positive side as much as possible. For instance, the fact that you might not get better inherently implies the possibility that you might get better. That's the thing with "maybes", either outcome is possible, and if you work more towards your preferred outcome, it is more likely to become the actual outcome.

 

[Frac]

Prozac my friend.. Prozac. Kidding... I can fully empathize. Time will pass but for now try to keep your chin up.

 

[arivero]

I think it is unrelated to the previous state, except that obviously before a time of apathy there was a time of activity, because is the only way to notice the difference. A related interesting concept is athambia.

 

[Relativist]

Yes, I have...

Do something, get help if you need it. Don't let it go to far. I didn't get help, I tried, but counselors were more interested in talking about physics than helping me. Anyway, It doesn't sound like your in that much trouble yet, but, I can't tell to much either way from your post.

One theory is that your "right-brain" is rebelling, solution, take a vacation. another could be that your having a nervous breakdown (which is what happened to me), in that case get help. One thing that helped me was "natural brilliance" by learning strategies.

GL and feel free to P.M. me if you want/need more advice.




...Curtis

 

[arivero]

As I have brought forward the topic in the LQG subforum,
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13023&perpage=12&pagenumber=6
I think it could be good to open a thread on Lucretius Epicurus and the rest of atomists. Properly this should not be exactly in Philosophy of Science but in Metaphysics & Epistemology but it seems that the "Natura" topic are by convention worked out here.

First, let me use an intermediate solution between latin and english... I will use *spanish* to review some of the quotes of Lucretius referring to atoms. Here come.

I,150: Y no se me oculta que de los griegos oscuros hallazgos
no facil es en versos latinos ponerlos en claro,
y mas cuando mucho con nuevas palabras hay que tratarlo,
por la escasez de la lengua y lo nuevo de lo tratado;

I,196: de modo que a muchas cosas comunes muchos entiendas
que hay elementos, como a las palabras vemos las letras,
mas bien que haber cosa alguna sin sus principios que pueda.

I, 684 Pero ello, a mi ver, es asi: hay ciertos cuerpos, que de ellos
los choques, orden, postura, figuras, y movimentos
fuegos producen, y mudan, mudando su ordenamiento,
el ser de la cosa;

I,215: A esto se annade que a todos de nuevo en los atomos suyos
disuelve natura y hasta la nada aniquila a ninguno.
Pues, si algo fuese mortal en sus partes todas, al punto
sin mas cada cosa se viera acabar borrada del mundo:
No haria falta una fuerza que hiciera de su conjunto
rotura de partes y que desliar pudiera sus nudos.
(et nexus exsoluere posset)

I,238: En fin, toda cosa un mismo poder y causa a cada hora
las destruiria, si no es que materia enterna lo estorba
sus lazos juntando entre si mas o menos prieta o porosa:
que un toque, en verded, de muerte seria causa de sobra,
si, de no haber elementos de cuerpo etern, que sola
la fuerza que sea a su vez destejer debiera su estofa.
Mas, siendo asi que los lazos que los primordios acoplan
son diferentes y eterna la masa es de que constan,
siguen las cosas enteras de un cuerpo, hasta tanto que atopa
fuerza bastante a la urdimbre de cada cual como propia.
(vis obeat pro textura)

I, 320: pero, quE cuerpos a cada momento de alli se desprendan,
natura celosa ha vedado la tal vision que se vea.
En fin, cuanto hay quen natura y el dia a las cosas agregan
poco a poco, obligando a medida y paso que crezcan,
ninguna agudeza de ojos que apliques hay que las vea
ni cuanta cosa tampoco envejece de edad y se seca,
ni las que dan sobre el mar recomidas de fina sal pennas
dado te es ver en cada momento quE es lo que pierdan.
Por cuerpos ciegos, por tanto, natura rige su empresa.
Y no, sin embargo, esta en corporal harnaz embutido
todo ni prieto doquiera, pues hay en las cosas vacio;
lo cual en asuntos mil te hara al caso haberlo entendido
y no dejara que vagues dudando y preguntes sin tino
por el total de las cosas y fe no des a mis dichos.
Con vista a lo cual, lugar hay sin toque, inane y vacio;
lo cual si no hubiera, en modo ninguno las cosas de sitio
podrian moverse, pues lo que del cuerpo es cargo y oficio,
que es resistir y topar, todo ser lo tendria de fijo
siempre ante si: nada pues avanzar podria ni pizco,
pues no habria nada que alli el de ceder ofreciera principio.

I,360: Porque, si hay en un copo de lana tanto de cuerpo
como en un plomo, que pese otro tanto es justo y derecho,
ya que empujar toda cosa hacia abajo es cargo del cuerpo,
mientras, por contra, el ser del vacio queda sin peso.
Asi, lo que igual de grande se ve y se ve mas ligero,
declara sin duda que mas vacio en si tiene dentro;
por contra, lo mas pesado proclama que mas de cuerpo
encierra en si, y de vacio que tiene en si mucho menos.

I,384: Por acabar, si dos cuerpos del choque a que han ido a rechace
rapidos saltan atras, de cierto es fuerza que el aire
ocupe todo el vacio que entre ambos cuerpos se abre;
mas el por mas que a redor con sus auras acelerandose
confluya, aun asi no podra el espacio todo llenarse
en solo un momento: pues debe el primero ocupar cada parte
que vaya encontrando, despues, que a ocuparlas todas alcance.

II 218 del propio su peso llevados, en tiempo a veces incierto,
incierto lugar, se tuercen un poco del derrotero,
tanto no mAs que se piueda decir que mudO el movimiento

II 80 Si los primordios de cosas te crees que pueden estarse
quietos y asi nuevas cosas hacer que a moverse se lancen
muy lejos de verdadera razon te pierdes errante:
pues, dado que por vacio se mueven, solo le cabe
a todo primordio de cosa o que el propio peso lo arraste
o el choque con otro tal vez. Pues, you que en rapido embate
han ido a menido a chocar, resulta que saltan aparte
por sI cada cual;

I 1010 (que al cuerpo a que se defina)
con el vacio, y con cuerpo a lo que es vacio, le obliga

This duality, between being and nobeing, is the main issue, and it easy to see it as the modern duality between vector and covector, or between densities and vector fields, or betweem momentum and position. In some sense, a particle is something that owns mometum, while vacuum is something that owns space, or distances. (Note the difference with string theory, for instance)

But amazingly the most popular detail, giving name to the whole theory, was the reference to minimal and indivisible units (Even politicians as Cicero got some interest in the name, which actually refers to the minimum unit of vote: in-dividuum. It was not until Cavalieri that the word was regained for mathematics). But these questions are not the starting point, and really you must wait until half of the first chapter to touch them.

I 561 Pero, de hecho, se ha dado sin duda un termino y queda
del dividir, you que vemos las cosas que se renuevan,

I 628 En fin, si no hiciese a todas las cosas en minimas partes
natura la criadora por norma desmenuzarse,
ya nada la misma de aquellas podria hacer repararse,
puesto que aquellos que no son ningunas hechos de partes
ya no podrian a la engendradora materia prestarle
lo que ella requere, rebotes y pesos, varios enlaces,
encuentros, mociones, por los que las cosas todas se hacen.

Here one should have a lot to think about the static arguments about the minimum (I 615) and about the dinamic ones. We know, via Archimedes, that Democritus got to solve the volume for the cone, and this implies to iterate, beyond any minimum. But a volume is a static object, so perhaps atomist use a different method when dinamics is involved. It is said that the theory was developed by giving a mathematical framework to Zenon arguments (for them see quartodeciman et al. in thread
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11181 )

Regretly, the issue of Time has been almost forgeted by Lucretius age,

I 459 El tiempo, asimismo, no es de por si, que por solos los hechos
sentido se alcanza de quE ha pasado en un tramo de tiempo,
quE es lo que esta amenazando, quE va siquiendole luego;
y el tiempo que en sI nadie puede sentirlo a bien confesemos,
si de mocion de cosas se aparta y reposo sereno.

 

[Evo]

Arivero,

There is an English translation of De Rerum Natura at http://classics.mit.edu/Carus/nature_things.html.

Did I find the right verse?

Y no se me oculta que de los griegos oscuros hallazgos
no facil es en versos latinos ponerlos en claro,
y mas cuando mucho con nuevas palabras hay que tratarlo,
por la escasez de la lengua y lo nuevo de lo tratado

I know how hard it is in Latian verse
To tell the dark discoveries of the Greeks,
Chiefly because our pauper-speech must find
Strange terms to fit the strangeness of the thing;

Please let me know if I am on the right track, my Spanish is terrible.

 

[marcus]

sweet iambic pentameter



fixed the link:
http://classics.mit.edu/Carus/nature_things.html

 

[marcus]

Evo, of course you found the right verse
but it was nice of you to ask
so that one has an easy way to reply

can you find any more matches
I think the verse-translation (from that one sample
you gave) is fine and would like to see more of it
matched to Alejandro's exerpts


I believe that Alejandro thinks the Mediterranean
old ones by a sort of coincidence came up with
echos of the modern ideas or that the modern ideas
are echos of the old ones

for me this is epitomized by Aristarchus finding the
heliocentric model more than a thousand years before
copernicus and then archimedes picking up on Aristarchus
model and actually putting it in a book that has
by great luck survived

but for arivero there is doubtless a good bit more to it]
than that

afterthought: this was a two person conversation and I
intruded, probably shd be quiet and let Evo or Alejandro continue

 

[Evo]

Marcus, I only asked arivero because he had put the spanish translation there so I figured he'd be the one to ask.

Thank you for confirming that I guessed correctly (as it was just a guess). Now I will continue to "guess" at the rest of it.

Anyone that will take time to answer me is welcome! You have always been very helpful and I appreciate that.

I was just curious to find the english version of the verses he felt were significant.

 

[marcus]

Originally posted by Evo
...Now I will continue to "guess" at the rest of it.

am looking forward to the next installment
so far, with those 4 lines, a shakespearean actor
would know how to deliver them so the scansion would
give pleasure without disrupting the sense.
I think the oldfashioned verse translation [edit: by William Ellery
Leonard 1876-1944] is elegant.

in case anyone wants the Latin, which has line numbers
http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/luc.html

 

[marcus]

Originally posted by arivero but modified in an accretive fashion by introducing iambic English translations

I,150: Y no se me oculta que de los griegos oscuros hallazgos
no facil es en versos latinos ponerlos en claro,
y mas cuando mucho con nuevas palabras hay que tratarlo,
por la escasez de la lengua y lo nuevo de lo tratado;

I know how hard it is in Latian verse
To tell the dark discoveries of the Greeks,
Chiefly because our pauper-speech must find
Strange terms to fit the strangeness of the thing;


I,360: Porque, si hay en un copo de lana tanto de cuerpo
como en un plomo, que pese otro tanto es justo y derecho,
ya que empujar toda cosa hacia abajo es cargo del cuerpo,
mientras, por contra, el ser del vacio queda sin peso.
Asi, lo que igual de grande se ve y se ve mas ligero,
declara sin duda que mas vacio en si tiene dentro;
por contra, lo mas pesado proclama que mas de cuerpo
encierra en si, y de vacio que tiene en si mucho menos.


Indeed, if in a ball of wool there be
As much of body as in lump of lead,
The two should weigh alike, since body tends
To load things downward, while the void abides,
By contrary nature, the imponderable.
Therefore, an object just as large but lighter
Declares infallibly its more of void;
Even as the heavier more of matter shows,
And how much less of vacant room inside.



I,384: Por acabar, si dos cuerpos del choque a que han ido a rechace
rapidos saltan atras, de cierto es fuerza que el aire
ocupe todo el vacio que entre ambos cuerpos se abre;
mas el por mas que a redor con sus auras acelerandose
confluya, aun asi no podra el espacio todo llenarse
en solo un momento: pues debe el primero ocupar cada parte
que vaya encontrando, despues, que a ocuparlas todas alcance.


Lastly, where after impact two broad bodies
Suddenly spring apart, the air must crowd
The whole new void between those bodies formed;
But air, however it stream with hastening gusts,
Can yet not fill the gap at once- for first
It makes for one place, ere diffused through all.

 

[Evo]

Thank you Marcus! I've been working on a huge project and hadn't had the time to go back through the translation.

 

[Evo]

I see you are also a poet Marcus...

 

[marcus]

Originally posted by Evo
I see you are also a poet Marcus...

for local attitudes to poetry see
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=9813#post9813
a Blake quatrain and the memorable sig of
PF poster wuliheron
"When in trouble
when in doubt
run in circles
scream and shout"

see however PF poster cragwolf's
quote from PAM Dirac


"In science one tries to tell people, in such a way as to be understood by everyone, something that no one ever knew before. But in poetry, it's the exact opposite."

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=757#post757

 

[arivero]

Originally posted by Evo
Arivero,
There is an English translation of De Rerum Natura at http://classics.mit.edu/Carus/nature_things.html.

Originally posted by marcus
I think the oldfashioned verse translation [edit: by William Ellery
Leonard 1876-1944] is elegant.

in case anyone wants the Latin, which has line numbers
http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/luc.html

Evo and Marcus, thanks very much for the English and Latin input!

I kept the numbering (book and line), which should be standard if the translations keep up with the verse.

Perhaps I should add I am not the traslator -it should be obvious :-( but a friend, Agustin Garcia. I spoke of him at http://arXiv.org/abs/math/9904021 . Agustin did time ago a bilingual edition, including some minor, but new, edition of the Latin text.

 

[arivero]

Originally posted by marcus
but for arivero there is doubtless a good bit more to it than that

There is a lot more. The basic tools of atomism are the duality matter/vacuum and the interaction eidolon/atom, which are the ones we use today.

Beyond that, the atomistic thought has strange philosophical links. Democritus is quoted invoking the concept of athambia in the sense of absence of spiritual pain.
Lucretius and Epicurus expand on this, relating this pain with the concept of death, and they take a posture contrary to religion: instead of conjuring it by postulating another life, they opt to go to explain every detail until no motive for pain is left.

There was a parallel between to notice, via Zeno, that the explanation of dynamics is limited by language, and to notice that explanation of political (spiritual, personal, etc) reality is also limited by language. Then the pain can be traced with a try of closure of the reality; this try is mainly executed by the "the system", as leftist politicians say. In this sense the Estate is the ruler of Death, as it try to impose a legal closure into your self, but also your Self is part of the system, trying to built a personality into you... Epicurean attacks are very useful too against this kind of tortures.

In the mid XXth century Benjamin Farrington published some books on the political conflict between epicureism and platonism, which also can be related to this.