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But I don't understand what is the law or formula behind this ???

Can anybody explain it further ???

- Thread starter Moni
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- #1

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But I don't understand what is the law or formula behind this ???

Can anybody explain it further ???

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hey how do they even know that infitey exist have they ever counted to it?

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Yes! I wanted to know how they are so sure about it's infinitiness ???

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subtillioN

The question is how can it NOT be infinite?Originally posted by Moni

Yes! I wanted to know how they are so sure about it's infinitiness ???

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First, I would respectfully suggest, you know what it means, "infinity" hence, I would suggest you read the https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=1438&perpage=15&pagenumber=11" at the Fourth post down, (My posting) and then you/we can discuss it better(?)

EDIT *__LINK__*

EDIT *

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- #7

subtillioN

Ok so let's discuss it.Originally posted by Mr. Robin Parsons

First, I would respectfully suggest, you know what it means, "infinity" hence, I would suggest you read the https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=1438&perpage=15&pagenumber=11" at the Fourth post down, (My posting) and then you/we can discuss it better(?)

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If I assume you have read it then you should ralize that it is not a concept that anyone can think of, hence a formula for infinity is impossible.Originally posted by subtillioN

Ok so let's discuss it.

The only thing that is left, by that posting I made, is admittance to

Hows that?

- #9

subtillioN

So you are saying that because we can't calculate to infinity then it cannot exist? Do you consider that a proof?Originally posted by Mr. Robin Parsons

If I assume you have read it then you should ralize that it is not a concept that anyone can think of, hence a formula for infinity is impossible.

I find thinking of infinity quite easy. I just can't fit it completely inside my mind, but so what? There are MANY complex phenomena that I cannot imagine in their entirety.

Ok, but it requires an extra assumption that space suddenly stops and is therefore finite.The only thing that is left, by that posting I made, is admittance toBelief, you eitherbelivein an infinity, or you don't, but it cannot be proven out, not one way, nor the other.

Needs a bit of work.Hows that?

- #10

Hurkyl

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It doesn't require a sudden stop to be finite.Ok, but it requires an extra assumption that space suddenly stops and is therefore finite.

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subtillioN

oh yeah the curved space thing... another hyper-patheticalOriginally posted by Hurkyl

It doesn't require a sudden stop to be finite.

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Well apparently you are willing to decieve yourself, as if it is NOT a thought, then no one can 'think' of it, partially or in it's entirey.Originally posted by subtillioN

So you are saying that because we can't calculate to infinity then it cannot exist? Do you consider that a proof? No, not a "proof" but you cannot prove, noor disprove it.

I find thinking of infinity quite easy. I just can't fit it completely inside my mind, but so what? There are MANY complex phenomena that I cannot imagine in their entirety.

No delineations, NO boundaries, NO edges, No appearance of space, NO visuals, ergo, No Conceptualization available.

- #13

subtillioN

Originally posted by Mr. Robin Parsons

Well apparently you are willing to decieve yourself, as if it is NOT a thought, then no one can 'think' of it, partially or in it's entirey.

You can think of it logically. Infinity simply has no edges or boundaries.

non sequiterNo delineations, NO boundaries, NO edges, No appearance of space, NO visuals, ergo, No Conceptualization available.

Just because a substance has no ultimate boundaries does not mean it has no internal structure.

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As I stated, just because you are willing to decieve yourself, doesn't mean you got it right.Originally posted by subtillioN

You can think of it logically. Infinity simply has no edges or boundaries.

Just because a substance has no ultimate boundaries does not mean it has no internal structure. HOGWASH!

Al thoughts are bounded, ergo you cannot have an unbounded thought, but you can fool yourself into thinkng that you have had one.

- #15

subtillioN

Originally posted by Mr. Robin Parsons

As I stated, just because you are willing to decieve yourself, doesn't mean you got it right.

Just because you can state that I am decieving my self does not mean that I actually am.

Care to explain how you wash the hog?

I never said that I could have an unbounded thought. The mind is certainly finite. That is why the imagination is useless to understand infinity. Infinity must be understood through logic not imagination.Al thoughts are bounded, ergo you cannot have an unbounded thought, but you can fool yourself into thinkng that you have had one.

If I say Infinity has no boundaries, I have said a true statement about infinity. Do you suppose that this statement must be infinite?

To understand something you need not replicate it in your mind. The mind is capable of generalization and abstraction.

- #16

Hurkyl

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but I'm at odds with his definition; infinity is typically used in contexts where we may (at least sometimes) ascribe quantities to entities in question, such as sizes of sets, lengths, or volumes. We use infinte/infinity when either we have "transfinite" numbers which are larger than any real number (such as the case of sizes of sets), or when there is no upper bound to the quantities in question (such as distances in the euclidean plane)

subtillioN is thinking in a context where "no edges or boundries" is a sufficient condition for there to be no upper bound on distances or volumes, but that is not

- #17

subtillioN

In mathematics there can be infinities of different magnitude. That is because they are dealing with the indefinite division of continuity.Originally posted by Hurkyl

but I'm at odds with his definition; infinity is typically used in contexts where we may (at least sometimes) ascribe quantities to entities in question, such as sizes of sets, lengths, or volumes. We use infinte/infinity when either we have "transfinite" numbers which are larger than any real number (such as the case of sizes of sets), or when there is no upper bound to the quantities in question (such as distances in the euclidean plane)

I do not consider this to be infinity proper, but the transfinite.

True infinity can have no magnitude.

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Think of it in the sense of looking at the surface of a perfectly lit/illuminated sphere all at once, the entire surface, observant thinkers will realize that visually you can see nothing because unless the surface of the sphere is lit in an asymetrical manner, all you will "see" is 'flat space' with nothing to distinguish anything from anything else.

Infinite is NOT a concept in your head, it cannot be, because, your imagination is limited, as well as is your thinking ability. (other then the typicono'graphic that is the word itself)

To be human is to experiance these limitations.

That you seem to wish to refuse to accept them, little I can do about that one.

In an infinite system you cannot even begin to count, as there is not one thing that is distinguished. (Neither beginning, nor end)

(Yes, I know, sounds contradictory, but in the complete understanding of the universes construction it ends up making sense......go Figure!)

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subtillioN

Originally posted by Mr. Robin Parsons

It becomes the paradox of presentation of the universe, inasmuch as you can count things in the first place, because, if you were truly observing, or thinking, of the infinite, you would have nothing in your head, absolutely nothing, ergo not even the beginning of counting anything!

First of all you make the error of equating observation with thought. I am talking logic not observation or imagination. This distinction is critical.

I am not talking about homogeneity whatsoever. Infinity is not equivalent to homogeneity.Think of it in the sense of looking at the surface of a perfectly lit/illuminated sphere all at once, the entire surface, observant thinkers will realize that visually you can see nothing because unless the surface of the sphere is lit in an asymetrical manner, all you will "see" is 'flat space' with nothing to distinguish anything from anything else.

Of course the infinite cannot be contained in the finite mind and the infinite is not a thought. This does not mean that logic can not define the infinite without encapsulating it.Infinite is NOT a concept in your head, it cannot be, because, your imagination is limited, as well as is your thinking ability.

You have simply misunderstood them.That you seem to wish to refuse to accept them, little I can do about that one.

Again you are confusing infinity with homogeneity.In an infinite system you cannot even begin to count, as there is not one thing that is distinguished. (Neither beginning, nor end)

"Everyone regards the question of the infinite as most difficult, if not insoluble, through not making a distinction between that which must be infinite from its very nature, or in virtue of its definition, and that which has no limits, not in virtue of its essence, but in virtue of its cause; and also through not distinguishing between that which is called infinite, because it has no limits, and that, of which the parts cannot be equalled or expressed by any number, though the greatest and least magnitude of the whole may be known; and, lastly, through not distinguishing between that, which can be understood but not imagined, and that which can also be imagined. If these distinctions, I repeat, had been attended to, inquirers would not have been overwhelmed with such a vast crowd of difficulties. They would then clearly have understood, what kind of infinite is indivisible and possesses no parts; and what kind, on the other hand, may be divided without involving a contradiction in terms. They would further have understood, what kind, of infinite may, without solecism, be conceived greater than another infinite, and what kind cannot be so conceived. All this will plainly appear from what I am about to say."

--Spinoza

- #20

Hurkyl

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At "first order", you may be right and we cannot conceptualize infinity at all.

However, at "second order" we can talk about first order thought itself. We can talk about things that fail to be conceptualized at the first order level and analyze how and why we can't conceptulaize it at that level, allowing us to synthesize second order concepts.

In particular, I can think about infinity without having to simultaneously think about everything "in" that infinity.

That addresses your argumentation, but I think you're thinking about infinity in entirely the wrong way. Most of these arguments that we cannot conceptualize infinity, et cetera, et cetera, are highly dogmatic; if you refuse to step boldly forward and try to figure out what you mean by "infinity", then, by golly, you will not be able to talk logically about it!

On the other hand, mathematicians do step boldly forward. We distill the "essential elements" out of peoples' vague ideas about infinity until we get a nice, precise definition appropriate to the context, and we get a lot of useful mathematics out of it.

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So you seem to think that you can separate logic, which is a process, from thought/imagination/concept.Originally posted by subtillion

First of all you make the error of equating observation with thought. I am talking logic not observation or imagination. This distinction is critical.

In order for you to follow logical thought, (the process of logic) you must have a thought, "infinite" defies that, as it cannot be thought of, logically, or otherwise, you simply self decieve.

Neither am I, and you cannot prove your second statement because you cannot concieve of infinite! (period!)Originally posted by subtillion

I am not talking about homogeneity whatsoever. Infinity is not equivalent to homogeneity.

This is a contradiction of terms, you cannot 'encapsulate' that which isOriginally posted by subtillion

This does not mean that logic can not define the infinite without encapsulating it.

You can fool yourself as long as you might like to, but it doesn't fool me, nor will it.

(unimaginable & unthinkable, ergo no logic available!)

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subtillioN

Well spoken! I couldn't agree more.Originally posted by Hurkyl

At "first order", you may be right and we cannot conceptualize infinity at all.

However, at "second order" we can talk about first order thought itself. We can talk about things that fail to be conceptualized at the first order level and analyze how and why we can't conceptulaize it at that level, allowing us to synthesize second order concepts.

In particular, I can think about infinity without having to simultaneously think about everything "in" that infinity.

That addresses your argumentation, but I think you're thinking about infinity in entirely the wrong way. Most of these arguments that we cannot conceptualize infinity, et cetera, et cetera, are highly dogmatic; if you refuse to step boldly forward and try to figure out what you mean by "infinity", then, by golly, you will not be able to talk logically about it!

On the other hand, mathematicians do step boldly forward. We distill the "essential elements" out of peoples' vague ideas about infinity until we get a nice, precise definition appropriate to the context, and we get a lot of useful mathematics out of it.

- #23

subtillioN

Originally posted by Mr. Robin Parsons

So you sem to think that you can separate logic, which is a process, from thought/imagination/concept.

There are many modes of thought and yes they can be functionally seperated.

Infinite is just a word which means "unbounded". Quite a finite thought really.In order for you to follow logical thought, you must have a thought, "infinite" defies that as it cannot be thought of logically or otherwise, you simply self decieve.

Why should I prove that infinity is not equivalent to homogeneity if you are not even talking about it?Neither am I, and you cannot prove your second statement because you cannot concieve of infinite! (period!)

I can concieve of an infinite substance which is entirely inhomogenous. That is not a proof it is a thought.

That is precisely what I said. I can logically understand it without encapsulating it.This is a contradiction of terms, you cannot 'encapsulate' that which isdefinedas 'un-ecapsulable'

You continue to misunderstand my point.You can fool yourself as long as you might like to, but it doesn't folo me, nor will it.

(unimaginable & unthinkable, ergo no logic available!)

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Just because you can 'second order think' about something doesn't mean that you can achieve the 'first order answer'.Originally posted by Hurkyl

The great thing about human thought is that we can think about what we can think. Recursive logical structures are exceedingly powerful...

At "first order", you may be right and we cannot conceptualize infinity at all.

However, at "second order" we can talk about first order thought itself. We can talk about things that fail to be conceptualized at the first order level and analyze how and why we can't conceptulaize it at that level, allowing us to synthesize second order concepts.

In particular, I can think about infinity without having to simultaneously think about everything "in" that infinity.

That addresses your argumentation, but I think you're thinking about infinity in entirely the wrong way. Most of these arguments that we cannot conceptualize infinity, et cetera, et cetera, are highly dogmatic; if you refuse to step boldly forward and try to figure out what you mean by "infinity", then, by golly, you will not be able to talk logically about it!

On the other hand, mathematicians do step boldly forward. We distill the "essential elements" out of peoples' vague ideas about infinity until we get a nice, precise definition appropriate to the context, and we get a lot of useful mathematics out of it.

Math might boldly go where no man went before, but it is not capable of mathematizing 'infinite' either, as it too, must start somewhere.

Define infinite, "no beginning, no end" so tell me,

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subtillioN

You are correct. No system of thought can encapsulate infinity. In mathematics and logic, "infinity" is an ideal. A mere symbol representing a train of thought.Originally posted by Mr. Robin Parsons

Math might boldly go where no man went before, but it is not capable of mathematizing 'infinite' either, as it too, must start somewhere.

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