Intelligent Design v.2

[Pythagorean]

What if an advanced species of aliens created us? Not magically, or with love...

with some kind of test tubes and a deep understanding of physical sciences as they apply to the dynamic system we call "life".

 

[Math Is Hard]

Doesn't that just lead to the question of where the aliens came from?

 

[Pythagorean]

It would still be consistent with the theory of evolution (and the anthropic principle), we'd just have a sort of corollary to it, that sentient intervention (like we ourselves practice in agriculture and breeding) could have been significantly influential.

 

[Math Is Hard]

Isn't adding aliens just introducing another layer of complexity?

 

[WaveJumper]

We are the product of the unified field, as is everything else - the earth, the trees, life, etc. It's rather odd that the classical picture says we are an insignificant and rather boring aspect of reality while a deeper look in QM gets you confused about what it means to 'exist' and if there is a world beyond our perception at all and what it is that we find ourselves into.

Your question is valid though, we could be living in an incomprehensible infinite regression. It's not harder to accept than the MWI, IMO. It's not even harder to comprehend than the unified filed bringing about self awareness of its existence(us).

 

[Pythagorean]

We are the product of the unified field, as is everything else - the earth, the trees, life, etc. It's rather odd that the classical picture says we are an insignificant and rather boring aspect of reality while a deeper look in QM gets you confused about what it means to 'exist' and if there is a world beyond our perception at all and what it is that we find ourselves into.

Your question is valid though, we could be living in an incomprehensible infinite regression. It's not harder to accept than the MWI, IMO. It's not even harder to comprehend than the unified filed bringing about self awareness of its existence(us).

I didn't really mean it as a theory of all life. Just a theory of us. We can still have the big bang and the eventual spark that creates the first life on some planet somewhere. There's some 14 billions of years to look over.

Isn't adding aliens just introducing another layer of complexity?

I tend not to call on Occam's Razor in philosophical discussions. I find it rather unproductive.

The probability that my idea is true is near zero simply because it was created by my imagination and not any observation of mine on the universe.

 

[Moridin]

What if an advanced species of aliens created us? Not magically, or with love...

with some kind of test tubes and a deep understanding of physical sciences as they apply to the dynamic system we call "life".

The only reliable process we know to create intelligence from non intelligence is evolution, so obviously those aliens would have to evolve on another planet. So either (1) life evolved or (2) aliens evolved and created humans. But since we only have evidence for (1), and no evidence for (2), Occam Razor implies that we should prefer (1). If you think OR is unproductive, you might not have understood it.

 

[lubuntu]

It's possible, I think if we ever encounter another species that will give us another data point and some more info to go on. But for now, its completely speculative.

 

[Pythagorean]

The only reliable process we know to create intelligence from non intelligence is evolution, so obviously those aliens would have to evolve on another planet. So either (1) life evolved or (2) aliens evolved and created humans. But since we only have evidence for (1), and no evidence for (2), Occam Razor implies that we should prefer (1). If you think OR is unproductive, you might not have understood it.

OR is for serious time; this might not be the thread for you. There's no proof for solipsism, yet it's still considered a reasonable theory in philosophy. Or to accept the possibility of the existence of ETs.

Also, (1) and (2) are not mutually exclusive by any means so you've already started your argument with a fallacy. I'm not saying the potential alien creators didn't rely on evolution; they would have had to advance far enough in their technology and understanding of life so that they knew how to pick the right location to deposit their little microbes that would (with x% probability) lead to intelligent life. Maybe we're just 1 of 1000's of successful results from experiments that this alien society has carried through generations for millions of years.

 

[Evo]

OR is for serious time; this might not be the thread for you. There's no proof for solipsism, yet it's still considered a reasonable theory in philosophy. Or to accept the possibility of the existence of ETs.

Also, (1) and (2) are not mutually exclusive by any means so you've already started your argument with a fallacy. I'm not saying the potential alien creators didn't rely on evolution; they would have had to advance far enough in their technology and understanding of life so that they knew how to pick the right location to deposit their little microbes that would (with x% probability) lead to intelligent life. Maybe we're just 1 of 1000's of successful results from experiments that this alien society has carried through generations for millions of years.

This isn't ID , it's panspermia/exogenisis and the only links I find are crackpot links not allowed here.

 

[Pythagorean]

This isn't ID , it's panspermia/exogenisis and the only links I find are crackpot links not allowed here.

Journal of British Interplanetary Society is crackpot?

 

[Pythagorean]

and Nature?

 

[Evo]

Did you post any links?

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

I didn't really mean it as a theory of all life. Just a theory of us. We can still have the big bang and the eventual spark that creates the first life on some planet somewhere. There's some 14 billions of years to look over.



I tend not to call on Occam's Razor in philosophical discussions. I find it rather unproductive.

The probability that my idea is true is near zero simply because it was created by my imagination and not any observation of mine on the universe.

An interesting version of ID I have heard is perhaps rather unlikely as well but may give rise to interesting pohilisophical discussion. The idea is that there is intelligence inherant in life, something like the famous 'Gaia Principle', and that there is a sort of intention in the manner that life has evolved. I think that so far all of the mechanisms they have explored for this have been dead ends, but I liek the idea. Its fun to think about.

 

[Pythagorean]

Did you post any links?

honestly, I didn't really see the point since my idea was original. I'm not making any claim, just pondering.

Panspermia (which is admittedly an element of my idea, though I didn't realize it until you brought it up) has some scientific attention:

Weber, P; Greenberg (1985), "“Can spores survive in interstellar space?”", Nature 316: 403–407

Mautner, M; Matloff (1979), ""Directed panspermia: A technical evaluation of seeding nearby solar systems."", J. British Interplanetary Soc. 32: 419

Mautner, M. N. (1997), "“Directed panspermia. 3. Strategies and motivation for seeding star-forming clouds”", J. British Interplanetary Soc. 50: 93

I haven't read these journals and I'm not depending on them for any sort of argument, this doesn't have to be a critical hot debate, I'm just pointing out that you may have biased your search when you threw around the word crackpot. That the idea of Panspermia is completely inconceivable.

An interesting version of ID I have heard is perhaps rather unlikely as well but may give rise to interesting pohilisophical discussion. The idea is that there is intelligence inherant in life, something like the famous 'Gaia Principle', and that there is a sort of intention in the manner that life has evolved. I think that so far all of the mechanisms they have explored for this have been dead ends, but I liek the idea. Its fun to think about.

Yeah, this is a favorite branch of thought of mine. If I was a deist I think this is what I would believe. Along the lines of Spinoza or Einstein's God:

"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings."
-Albert Einstein

Of course, I don't know if I'd necessarily call it intelligent. It would probably be too Zen for (and thus superior to) intelligence.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Of course, I don't know if I'd necessarily call it intelligent. It would probably be too Zen for (and thus superior to) intelligence.

I've not been able to find the articles since I first read them but there are some that treat the idea scientifically trying to find mechanisms for a species wide, or even ecosystem wide, proto-intelligence that lends a motivating force to evolution. I think most people believe evolution is an intentional goal oriented process since we are taught evolution in grade school and high school with words that imply it. Its just easier to explain it that way to someone who doesn't understand. And maybe that's why I like the idea since I had always thought of evolution in such terms until I realized it apparently doesn't work that way.

 

[redargon]

What if an advanced species of aliens created us? Not magically, or with love...

with some kind of test tubes and a deep understanding of physical sciences as they apply to the dynamic system we call "life".

and alien abductions were their way of checking up on their little experiment. I've had the same idea before, but it all seems a little too complex, even for an advanced race to perform. Think of all the animals and plants and other stuff they'd have to create to go with it all. Or maybe they just planted the first "seeds" and everything evolved from there and they're testing some kind of evolution theory to better understand themselves. It reminds me of the larson cartoon where the aliens have just put a tracking collar around a guy and dropped him off uin his front yard, yik yik yik

 

[Evo]

I'm just pointing out that you may have biased your search when you threw around the word crackpot. That the idea of Panspermia is completely inconceivable.

Based on your OP question of

What if an advanced species of aliens created us? Not magically, or with love...

with some kind of test tubes and a deep understanding of physical sciences as they apply to the dynamic system we call "life".

You would be proposing "directed panspermia".

Similarly, the theory of directed panspermia is not taken seriously. There is no proof to support such a theory and most evidence is to the contrary. The universe is about 15 billion years old and life on Earth began perhaps 5 billion years ago. (2) This window of time leaves a relatively small time frame for a planet to form, develop beings intelligent enough to make a rocket ship capable of carrying small cells to earth, and then for the rocket ship to travel the billions of miles to earth. Not to mention the fact that the cells themselves would have to survive first a trip of perhaps millions of years and then the impact when the rocket ship crashed into the earth. (2)

http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/1919

 

[Pythagorean]

http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/1919

That's fair, but I don't think it puts it above any other philosophical ideas like solipsism. It's unlikely and perhaps makes some people feel uncomfortable, but it's not completely impossible. Of course, I'm not really convinced we're the product of alien experimentation, but I don't think people who discuss solipsism with interest are necessarily solipsists.

 

[kashiark]

bob lazar was a physicist that supposedly worked for the government in a secret facility in the mountain across from area 51 known as S4, and he said that the leap from homo erectus to homo sapien was a product of genetic engineering by aliens that the government was in contact with. it's all very interesting although i don't buy it, but you should look him up.

 

[Pythagorean]

bob lazar was a physicist that supposedly worked for the government in a secret facility in the mountain across from area 51 known as S4, and he said that the leap from homo erectus to homo sapien was a product of genetic engineering by aliens that the government was in contact with. it's all very interesting although i don't buy it, but you should look him up.

I'm not really interested in particular cases, I just like to challenge anthropocentric ideas.

 

[a4mula]

I'm not really interested in particular cases, I just like to challenge anthropocentric ideas.

I think when you start getting into the realm of challenging something just for the sake of challenging then you're opening a can of worms that is never ending.

We could speculate on thousands of different theories that challenge modern understanding of our creation. Some would have more merit than others, however if any single one of them stood the tests of empirical study and scientific method then they'd surpass our current beliefs.

This just seems like another instance of unprovable/undeniable religious based pseudoscience. If you'd like to challenge the current belief system there are much more plausible scenerios.

 

[Count Iblis]

What if an advanced species of aliens created us? Not magically, or with love...

with some kind of test tubes and a deep understanding of physical sciences as they apply to the dynamic system we call "life".

Then I think we're doomed. Aliens could have generated our universe as a result of running a genetic algorithm. But I think they won't be too pleased when they see the results. So, we can expect the alien computer to stop computing us anytime.