Can diplomacy truly end armed campaigns?

[brewnog]

The IRA today formally ordered an end to its armed campaign. From now on, it will pursue peaceful action only.

Is it for real this time?

 

[MaxS]

An end to the IRA, maybe, but I believe there will be members of the IRA who will perpetuate the killing under new banners.

 

[Art]

An end to the IRA, maybe, but I believe there will be members of the IRA who will perpetuate the killing under new banners.

Yes like they've been doing since announcing their ceasefire some years back. Oops, but they haven't. Darn another good theory ruined by boring fact. :rofl: :rofl:

 

[Anttech]

Yes like they've been doing since announcing their ceasefire some years back. Oops, but they haven't. Darn another good theory ruined by boring fact.

well the new IRA isn't active in terrorist activities but don't forget about the belfast PUB murder! Actually this seems to have been the turning point, that we are now seeing that Sein Fein are washing there hands of the New IRA

http://www.google.be/search?hs=1RZ&...S:official&q=IRA+pub+murder&btnG=Search&meta=

 

[MaxS]

Yes like they've been doing since announcing their ceasefire some years back. Oops, but they haven't. Darn another good theory ruined by boring fact. :rofl: :rofl:

Just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it won't - If Al Qaeda and Hezbollah called a cease fire do you think there would be no more terrorism in the middle east? I would guess that certain members would break off and start their own terrorist organizations. Thats what I'm predicting with the IRA although obviously I'm hoping for the opposite.

(I don't know what you mean when you say another good theory was ruined - the fact you gave doesn't pertain to the current situation and when was the last time you ruined a good theory of mine whether by fact or otherwise?)

 

[vanesch]

The IRA today formally ordered an end to its armed campaign. From now on, it will pursue peaceful action only.

They lost the edge, maybe. No suicide bombers and so. Doesn't impress people much anymore these days.

 

[brewnog]

They lost the edge, maybe. No suicide bombers and so. Doesn't impress people much anymore these days.

The IRA never used suicide bombers.

 

[Anttech]

The 'IRA' is actually sein fien.. The REAL/Provisional IRA are the terrorists of last quarter of 20th century... The Provisional-IRA were actually a breakaway faction of the 'old' IRA...

Anyway they won't dispand, just will just go underground, they make a LOT of money traffic drugs, arms, and fake money... Anyone ever hear about the North Korea supper Dollars, that the Provisional IRA were introducing into the world ecconomy?

edit: bit late.. got my factions mixed up

 

[Art]

well the new IRA isn't active in terrorist activities but don't forget about the belfast PUB murder! Actually this seems to have been the turning point, that we are now seeing that Sein Fein are washing there hands of the New IRA

http://www.google.be/search?hs=1RZ&...S:official&q=IRA+pub+murder&btnG=Search&meta=

The Belfast pub murder was not an IRA hit. There was a fight in a rather rough pub following an ongoing argument between the victim (Robert McCartney) and his friend and a group of other men (who happened to be members of the IRA) over a beating McCartney had given a teenager whilst working as a 'doorman' at another pub. On the night, the row escalated over comments made to McCartneys 'girlfriend' who was with him at the time. (His fiancee and their two kids were at home.) A drink fuelled fight broke out which spilled into the street and finished with McCartney being stabbed.
The gov't seeing a golden opportunity for propaganda elevated McCartney to sainthood and called it an example of IRA brutality whereas in reality the killers' membership of the IRA was purely incidental. This was not a 'hit' carried out under the auspices of republicanism, it was an ugly brawl between violent men that ended in death for McCartney.
To put it in context in the ROI several members of the ruling party, Fine Fail have been found guilty in the past few years of criminal offences ranging from drunk driving to serious fraud. Nobody suggests that the Fine Fail party orchestrated their individual criminal acts or that the Fine Fail party was resonsible for them yet for political expediency that is precisely what they did with the killers of McCartney.
So in summary statistically it is highly likely that previous members of the IRA will commit crimes in the future. Does that mean that the IRA commanders have gone back on their word? IMO no more so than holding any other political party responsible for the unsanctioned criminal acts of it's members.

 

[Anttech]

I know ART, I am not contesting you

I was just highlighting they are still gangsters, and they always will be.. I was born in Glasgow Scotland, and have seen the UDF and IRA, espcially at the Old Firm Football matches. An aquentance of mine was killed by a UDF follower for wareing a Celtic football strip...

Secteranism is so bred into the culture of Scotland and Ireland that it will never die... But I don't think we will ever see the Bomb attacks of old from the provos

 

[Art]

I know ART, I am not contesting you...


Secteranism is so bred into the culture of Scotland and Ireland that it will never die... But I don't think we will ever see the Bomb attacks of old from the provos

I agree. I find N. Ireland a very uncomfortable place to visit whichever group's areas I happen to pass through. There is something very intimidating about passing through towns and villages where they all have either union jacks or tri-colour flags painted on the approaches to signify their allegience and the barrels of machine guns tracking your progress from security forces guard posts.

It reminds me of the joke about the man stopped by hooded armed men in Belfast and asked if he was a catholic or a protestant. "I'm a jew" he said. After a moments pause the armed men asked him "Would that be a catholic jew or a protestant jew?"
Unfortunately in N. Ireland it is all too real.

 

[Anttech]

hehe...

funny, but very true

 

[Art]

(I don't know what you mean when you say another good theory was ruined - the fact you gave doesn't pertain to the current situation and when was the last time you ruined a good theory of mine whether by fact or otherwise?)

I wasn't referring to you MaxS I was referring to the first sentence of my own comment in a self deprecating joke.

 

[Astronuc]

The IRA today formally ordered an end to its armed campaign. From now on, it will pursue peaceful action only.

Is it for real this time?

Very encouraging news indeed! I wish them success!

Violence is not the way to settle grievances.

 

[The Smoking Man]

Very encouraging news indeed! I wish them success!

Violence is not the way to settle grievances.

Yeah!

Say that again and I'll punch your lights out!
:tongue:

 

[pattylou]

hey there you Brits --

I never followed the IRA stuff (Sorry about that. I was young and a typical American teenager blah blah blah.). But I have been following public opinion in the US, and the UK, for the Al Quaeda stuff. Americans want to ram stuff down Al Qaeda's throat, Uk'ers not so much.

My question for the Brits and others knowledgeable about the IRA history is: What do you attribute the reduction in IRA hostilities, too? I recall there were frequent bombings, and that they subsided. Was it bcause you "took the fight to the terrorists" or something else or a combination?

Thanks,
Patty

 

[vanesch]

The IRA never used suicide bombers.

Yeah, that's what I mean. If you want to make a name as a terrorist organisation today, you need suicide bombers, otherwise you're not taken seriously anymore. It's a way to show that you care about what you're doing :-)

 

[MaxS]

I wasn't referring to you MaxS I was referring to the first sentence of my own comment in a self deprecating joke.

LOL I'm such an idiot.

 

[Anttech]

My question for the Brits and others knowledgeable about the IRA history is: What do you attribute the reduction in IRA hostilities, too? I recall there were frequent bombings, and that they subsided. Was it bcause you "took the fight to the terrorists" or something else or a combination?

its called diplomacy: Americans arent really used to this stratigy so Ill explain it (j/k).

You sit round a table (with out bombing anyone from 30,000 feet) and talk about what's upsetting them so much, and how this grievece can be solved.

The IRA also have lost popluar support from the people of Ireland, and the loyaists have also lost support and are not active in terrorsim...

 

[Smurf]

LOL I'm such an idiot.

don't be so hard on yourself.

 

[Art]

hey there you Brits --

I never followed the IRA stuff (Sorry about that. I was young and a typical American teenager blah blah blah.). But I have been following public opinion in the US, and the UK, for the Al Quaeda stuff. Americans want to ram stuff down Al Qaeda's throat, Uk'ers not so much.

My question for the Brits and others knowledgeable about the IRA history is: What do you attribute the reduction in IRA hostilities, too? I recall there were frequent bombings, and that they subsided. Was it bcause you "took the fight to the terrorists" or something else or a combination?

Thanks,
Patty

The main catalyst for peace was the change in gov't in the UK. The conservatives got kicked out and labour were elected. For many years under Thatcher and to a lesser extent under Major the conservatives who are historically closely tied to the unionist parties in N.Ire looked for a definitive military victory over the IRA. This was impossible to achieve for essentially the same reasons Bush cannot defeat the insurgents in Iraq militarily.

It is estimated that the IRA only ever had approx 300 active service members at anyone time and as these volunteers were killled or captured they were immediately replaced by some of the thousands of applicants waiting for their chance to join the front line.

The labour party, when elected, took a very different approach by first acknowledging the catholics in the north had genuine grievances and then sitting down with Sine Fein (the political wing of the IRA), the gov't of the ROI and representatives of the main unionist parties to thrash out an agreement.

This resulted in the Good Friday agreement (which essentially was a formula for sharing power in N.Ire.) and a cessation of hostilities by the IRA.

 

[The Smoking Man]

Yeah, that's what I mean. If you want to make a name as a terrorist organisation today, you need suicide bombers, otherwise you're not taken seriously anymore. It's a way to show that you care about what you're doing :-)

When you care enough to send the very best ... Suicide bombers.

Ooops sorry, wrong thread.

 

[Art]

When you care enough to send the very best ... Suicide bombers.

Ooops sorry, wrong thread.

One particularly nasty trick the IRA did one time, was having found an informer amongst their ranks they took his family hostage, filled a car with explosives and told the guy if he didn't drive the car into the middle of an army checkpoint all of his family would be killed. They were kind enough to give him a few seconds to leap out of the car and run before detonating the bomb but this was still a sort of 'suicide bomber by proxy' tactic.

 

[Anttech]

The old IRA were actually true freedom fighters, who fought for independance of Ireland from England around the turn of the 20th century. The paramiltitary units that were formed post "Anglo-Irish Treaty" are what we all call the IRA ...

 

[Art]

The old IRA were actually true freedom fighters, who fought for independance of Ireland from England around the turn of the 20th century. The paramiltitary units that were formed post "Anglo-Irish Treaty" are what we all call the IRA ...

The 'old IRA' were called terrorists at the time for waging a guerilla war against the British. The IRA never disbanded but simply became much quieter resurfacing again in the late 60's following the attacks on catholic civil rights marchers by the 'legitimate' protestant paramilitary force the 'B' Specials who drove through catholic areas firing machine guns into the houses to intimidate the residents into giving up their quest for equality.

The British army became involved on the ground in N. Ire. at the request of the catholics who were seeking urgent protection from the Stormont (N.I.) gov't murder gangs. Initially the British were welcomed by the catholics and it was the unionists who resented their presence. In fact the first British soldiers killed were killed by protestant unionists.

The situation reversed when a Scottish regiment was deployed who historically shared a common heritage with the N.I. unionist protestants. These soldiers conducted searches for guns in catholic areas only, ripping apart the catholic's houses in the process, despite the fact it was the catholics who were being mown down. This brought the IRA into conflict with the British army and things escalated from there.

 

[Anttech]

There is a lot written on the IRA and its factions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRA

Offical IRA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Official_IRA
Real IRA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_Irish_Republican_Army
Provisional IRA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provisional_Irish_Republican_Army
Sinn Fein http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinn_Féin

Some of whos who and what happened is still in debate, as this is still an emotionaly charged subject, in some areas of the world

 

[Anttech]

wow... Wonder what the next step will be, a unite Ireland?

THE Provisional IRA has agreed to destroy its deadly arsenal by the end of September.

http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,16090030%255E663,00.html

The ecconmic situation in the Republic is soo good the (Unionists and Loyalsts) people in the North might actually want to join Eire

 

[DM]

well the new IRA isn't active in terrorist activities but don't forget about the belfast PUB murder!

Very true!

 

[brewnog]

wow... Wonder what the next step will be, a unite Ireland?

The ecconmic situation in the Republic is soo good the (Unionists and Loyalsts) people in the North might actually want to join Eire

I'm not so sure. A few years of a reasonably good economy is not going to be enough to convince those whose arguments are based on hundreds of years of tradition.

A power-sharing government is likely to be the next step, although it's a step which must be taken very carefully.

 

[pattylou]

Thanks for the information!

 

[brewnog]

Patty, sorry. I thought your question was an excellent one and I don't feel it's been answered yet, mainly because it's not an easy answer to give!

In short, I do believe that diplomacy has been a major contributing factor to this supposed resolution. However, I think it would be prudent to have some cynicism; several hundred years of conflict being resolved in an afternoon is a tall order. We should all cross our fingers, and look to the future.

 

[pattylou]

Ooops - you caught me out. I glommed onto a few key phrases that were new for me in the past short history:

Thatcher, Labour, Diplomacy, Catholic oppression...

And didn't read for details. I will continue to follow the thread. My interest of course is in ideas as to how we could approach more global terror problems with more success.