Iran: Evil, or just like us?

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Iran...

  • It's evil.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • It's just a bunch of people, like us, and all the ridiculous doublespeak propaganda won't change tha

    Votes: 6 100.0%

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  • #1
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Main Question or Discussion Point

Wait, I'm confuzzed. First the USA calls Iran "evil", now it offers condolences?

Which is it?

http://usinfo.state.gov/regional/nea/text/0624quake.htm [Broken]
 
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Answers and Replies

  • #2
Monique
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Iran was evil?
 
  • #3
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The Iranian governement is/was evil, but the Iranian people are just like the rest of us.
 
  • #4
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Originally posted by Monique
Iran was evil?
Remember Bush referred to it as evil in his big Axis Of Evil (tm) thing?
 
  • #5
russ_watters
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Originally posted by Andy
The Iranian governement is/was evil, but the Iranian people are just like the rest of us.
Sounds pretty simple to me.
 
  • #6
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Yeah, it would be simple, except you're not seeing the way it really is. It's simple, but you're looking at it backwards. Look at Iraq: 8000+ innocent civilians dead, one dictator captured. Making war against an "evil" government affects mostly the people, not the targeted government.
 
  • #7
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Originally posted by Adam
Wait, I'm confuzzed. First the USA calls Iran "evil", now it offers condolences?

Which is it?

http://usinfo.state.gov/regional/nea/text/0624quake.htm [Broken]
We say they are evil and they say we are evil. I say they are both right.
 
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  • #8
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Originally posted by Adam
Yeah, it would be simple, except you're not seeing the way it really is. It's simple, but you're looking at it backwards. Look at Iraq: 8000+ innocent civilians dead, one dictator captured. Making war against an "evil" government affects mostly the people, not the targeted government.
Well considering the Sadam and his regime are responsible for over 1,000,000 Kurdish deaths(all citizens of Iraq) killed by chemical weapons. Not to mention the more than 400,000 corpses found in mass graves(more Iraqi citizens). 8,000 more lives, is well worth the cost of freedom.
 
  • #9
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Originally posted by Daze
Well considering the Sadam and his regime are responsible for over 1,000,000 Kurdish deaths(all citizens of Iraq) killed by chemical weapons. Not to mention the more than 400,000 corpses found in mass graves(more Iraqi citizens). 8,000 more lives, is well worth the cost of freedom.
Where the fudge are you getting these figures from? George Bush?

The USA killed something like half a million Iraqis in Desert Storm. Where do you think the bodies went? Well, duh, they buried them.

Secondly, by what possible rationale do you say that 8,000 innocent civilian lives are a fair price to pay? Would you say that still if it was your entire family that lay dead around you?


Some extra info for you:
A War Crime or an Act of War?

It was no surprise that President Bush, lacking smoking-gun evidence of Iraq's weapons programs, used his State of the Union address to re-emphasize the moral case for an invasion: "The dictator who is assembling the world's most dangerous weapons has already used them on whole villages, leaving thousands of his own citizens dead, blind or disfigured."

The accusation that Iraq has used chemical weapons against its citizens is a familiar part of the debate. The piece of hard evidence most frequently brought up concerns the gassing of Iraqi Kurds at the town of Halabja in March 1988, near the end of the eight-year Iran-Iraq war. President Bush himself has cited Iraq's "gassing its own people," specifically at Halabja, as a reason to topple Saddam Hussein.

But the truth is, all we know for certain is that Kurds were bombarded with poison gas that day at Halabja. We cannot say with any certainty that Iraqi chemical weapons killed the Kurds. This is not the only distortion in the Halabja story.

I am in a position to know because, as the Central Intelligence Agency's senior political analyst on Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war, and as a professor at the Army War College from 1988 to 2000, I was privy to much of the classified material that flowed through Washington having to do with the Persian Gulf. In addition, I headed a 1991 Army investigation into how the Iraqis would fight a war against the United States; the classified version of the report went into great detail on the Halabja affair.

This much about the gassing at Halabja we undoubtedly know: it came about in the course of a battle between Iraqis and Iranians. Iraq used chemical weapons to try to kill Iranians who had seized the town, which is in northern Iraq not far from the Iranian border. The Kurdish civilians who died had the misfortune to be caught up in that exchange. But they were not Iraq's main target.

And the story gets murkier: immediately after the battle the United States Defense Intelligence Agency investigated and produced a classified report, which it circulated within the intelligence community on a need-to-know basis. That study asserted that it was Iranian gas that killed the Kurds, not Iraqi gas.

The agency did find that each side used gas against the other in the battle around Halabja. The condition of the dead Kurds' bodies, however, indicated they had been killed with a blood agent � that is, a cyanide-based gas � which Iran was known to use. The Iraqis, who are thought to have used mustard gas in the battle, are not known to have possessed blood agents at the time.

These facts have long been in the public domain but, extraordinarily, as often as the Halabja affair is cited, they are rarely mentioned. A much-discussed article in The New Yorker last March did not make reference to the Defense Intelligence Agency report or consider that Iranian gas might have killed the Kurds. On the rare occasions the report is brought up, there is usually speculation, with no proof, that it was skewed out of American political favoritism toward Iraq in its war against Iran.

I am not trying to rehabilitate the character of Saddam Hussein. He has much to answer for in the area of human rights abuses. But accusing him of gassing his own people at Halabja as an act of genocide is not correct, because as far as the information we have goes, all of the cases where gas was used involved battles. These were tragedies of war. There may be justifications for invading Iraq, but Halabja is not one of them.

In fact, those who really feel that the disaster at Halabja has bearing on today might want to consider a different question: Why was Iran so keen on taking the town? A closer look may shed light on America's impetus to invade Iraq.

We are constantly reminded that Iraq has perhaps the world's largest reserves of oil. But in a regional and perhaps even geopolitical sense, it may be more important that Iraq has the most extensive river system in the Middle East. In addition to the Tigris and Euphrates, there are the Greater Zab and Lesser Zab rivers in the north of the country. Iraq was covered with irrigation works by the sixth century A.D., and was a granary for the region.

Before the Persian Gulf war, Iraq had built an impressive system of dams and river control projects, the largest being the Darbandikhan dam in the Kurdish area. And it was this dam the Iranians were aiming to take control of when they seized Halabja. In the 1990's there was much discussion over the construction of a so-called Peace Pipeline that would bring the waters of the Tigris and Euphrates south to the parched Gulf states and, by extension, Israel. No progress has been made on this, largely because of Iraqi intransigence. With Iraq in American hands, of course, all that could change.

Thus America could alter the destiny of the Middle East in a way that probably could not be challenged for decades � not solely by controlling Iraq's oil, but by controlling its water. Even if America didn't occupy the country, once Mr. Hussein's Baath Party is driven from power, many lucrative opportunities would open up for American companies.

All that is needed to get us into war is one clear reason for acting, one that would be generally persuasive. But efforts to link the Iraqis directly to Osama bin Laden have proved inconclusive. Assertions that Iraq threatens its neighbors have also failed to create much resolve; in its present debilitated condition � thanks to United Nations sanctions � Iraq's conventional forces threaten no one.

Perhaps the strongest argument left for taking us to war quickly is that Saddam Hussein has committed human rights atrocities against his people. And the most dramatic case are the accusations about Halabja.

Before we go to war over Halabja, the administration owes the American people the full facts. And if it has other examples of Saddam Hussein gassing Kurds, it must show that they were not pro-Iranian Kurdish guerrillas who died fighting alongside Iranian Revolutionary Guards. Until Washington gives us proof of Saddam Hussein's supposed atrocities, why are we picking on Iraq on human rights grounds, particularly when there are so many other repressive regimes Washington supports?
(Stephen C. Pelletiere, The New York Times, January 31, 2003)

Stephen C. Pelletiere is author of "Iraq and the International Oil System: Why America Went to War in the Persian Gulf."
 
  • #10
russ_watters
Mentor
19,705
6,043
Originally posted by Adam
Yeah, it would be simple, except you're not seeing the way it really is. It's simple, but you're looking at it backwards. Look at Iraq: 8000+ innocent civilians dead, one dictator captured. Making war against an "evil" government affects mostly the people, not the targeted government.
You appear to be making the assumption or assertion that overall the people of Iraq were better off under Saddam than they are now or will be once we rebuild their country and set up their democratic govt. Is that what you are saying?
 
  • #11
member 5645
Originally posted by Adam
Wait, I'm confuzzed. First the USA calls Iran "evil", now it offers condolences?

Which is it?

http://usinfo.state.gov/regional/nea/text/0624quake.htm [Broken]

Would you have been happier if we let those people die and rot while we just stand by??

What do you think about the Iranian government denying an Israeli humanitarian squad access to help??
 
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  • #12
member 5645
Originally posted by Adam
Where the fudge are you getting these figures from? George Bush?


oh haahahaha, I love that you followed that with this quantitative jewel!!

The USA killed something like half a million Iraqis in Desert Storm. Where do you think the bodies went? Well, duh, they buried them.
"something like"?? Where are you getting your figures? 'Clueless'?

Secondly, by what possible rationale do you say that 8,000 innocent civilian lives are a fair price to pay? Would you say that still if it was your entire family that lay dead around you?
Well, according to your following article, we didn't kill them. They just got caught in the crossfire, "sadly", and just like "We cannot say with any certainty that Iraqi chemical weapons killed the Kurds", we cannot say with any certainty that American weapons killed the Iraqis.




Some extra info for you:
Do you ever stop the rhetoric? Another article of "ohhh, I saw it, so believe me! You have to! I have no proof, but believe me!"
[/QUOTE]
 
  • #13
22
0
russ_waters

Originally posted by russ_watters
You appear to be making the assumption or assertion that overall the people of Iraq were better off under Saddam than they are now or will be once we rebuild their country and set up their democratic govt. Is that what you are saying?
That's one hell of an assumption, russ.
 
  • #14
22
0
phatmonky

Would you have been happier if we let those people die and rot while we just stand by??
Dude, do you not watch the news? 8000+ innocent civilians died due to US bombing. They were alive before the US invaded. Now they're dead. Figure it out. They were better off when the USA was "standing by".

What do you think about the Iranian government denying an Israeli humanitarian squad access to help??
I think it's silly, but I understand their reasons. Israel tends to fly over and blow up Iranians now and then. Tell me, what do you think of the USA's refusal to allow China's nuclear inspectors absolute and unrestricted access to the USA's nuclear arsenal?
 
  • #15
Zero
Originally posted by Adam

The USA killed something like half a million Iraqis in Desert Storm. Where do you think the bodies went? Well, duh, they buried them.

Often while they were still possibly alive, actually. They would spray trenches with machine gun fire, then fill in the trenches as they went, with the scoop of the bulldozer hacking off protruding limbs...


and none of this has anything to do with this thread...get back on topic, or I'm bringing down the hammer, kids...and it is a small hammer, but it stings like the dickens.
 
  • #16
22
0
oh haahahaha, I love that you followed that with this quantitative jewel!!
You're not familiar with formal debating of any form, are you?

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/04/17/sprj.irq.casualties/
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/gulf.war/facts/gulfwar/ [Broken]
http://www.fcnl.org/issues/item.php?item_id=403&issue_id=35 [Broken]
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/middle_east/03/v3_iraq_timeline/html/ceasefire.stm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert_Storm

And yes, many of the WIAs died later as well. Plus the increased death rate from cancer since the DU was dumped all over the place. You could easily research this stuff yourself. Do that first, then make silly complaints.

"something like"?? Where are you getting your figures? 'Clueless'?
See above. Try this amazing thing called "research". You'll look less silly that way.

Well, according to your following article, we didn't kill them. They just got caught in the crossfire, "sadly", and just like "We cannot say with any certainty that Iraqi chemical weapons killed the Kurds", we cannot say with any certainty that American weapons killed the Iraqis.
I don't think this little episode of stupidity from you needs any comment, really.

Do you ever stop the rhetoric? Another article of "ohhh, I saw it, so believe me! You have to! I have no proof, but believe me!"
Research, kiddo. It won't take long.
 
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