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News Iraq vet waterboards daughter

  1. Feb 11, 2010 #1

    BobG

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    Authorities Say the 4-Year-Old Was Punished Because She Wouldn't Say Her ABCs

    After years of avoiding the term "torture" when referring to waterboarding, news organizations have finally found a situation where they can openly link the two.

    (As sick as it may be, Tabor felt the tactic worked. " 'She said her letters after that,' Tabor told the cops, admitting that he had grown frustrated with the girl after practicing the letters for 'approximately three hours.' ")

    Also notable is the reaction of right wing bloggers. Tabor, the father, didn't do it right. Instead of strapping the girl to a board, covering her face with a rag, and pouring water over it, he just manually held her down in the water until it was at the eyeline and occasionally dunked her. Right Argues Semantics of 'Waterboarding'

    In other words, what Tabor was doing to his daughter was torture, but it wasn't waterboarding. And waterboarding isn't torture, so you can't compare Tabor's actions to the actions taken at Gitmo.

    I think that's a silly distinction. What we're really doing is defining an action by who it's done to. Do it to a child, it's torture. Do it to an enemy detainee, it's enhanced interrogation. That's a scary way to distinguish between the two.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2010
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  3. Feb 11, 2010 #2

    russ_watters

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    Regardless of whether you define either action as torture, you must recognize that the rules of treatment of children and adults ARE different.
     
  4. Feb 11, 2010 #3

    mgb_phys

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    Well at least he did prove she wasn't a witch
     
  5. Feb 11, 2010 #4
    He gave her a swirly?
     
  6. Feb 11, 2010 #5

    lisab

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    http://www.thenewstribune.com/partners/theolympian/story/1054799.html" [Broken]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 4, 2017
  7. Feb 25, 2010 #6
    Torture is ALWAYS wrong. There is no grey area. There is no grounds for relativism.

    Adults, children - no human being should be ever tortured.
     
  8. Feb 25, 2010 #7

    russ_watters

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    You didn't read what I wrote...
     
  9. Feb 25, 2010 #8

    arildno

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    Nope.
    Sure it is.
    Quite so.
    Why?
     
  10. Feb 25, 2010 #9
    russ: well you're basically saying it is worse to do [depraved thing X] to child than to an adult. If something is by definition inhuman, it should never be meted out on anyone. So it's meaningless to draw a distinction in the way you did.

    arildno: If you support tyrannical forms of goverment, sure.
     
  11. Feb 25, 2010 #10

    Mech_Engineer

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    The guy is a sick SOB that should be out in jail for life. Abusing a young child (his own daughter no less!) over such a petty issue is cruel and reprehensible.

    That being said, I see no reason to try and draw parallels between what this sicko did, and what is or isn't happening elsewhere in the world. Everyone can agree what he did to his daughter is undoubtedly wrong.
     
  12. Feb 25, 2010 #11

    Mech_Engineer

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    Your moral beliefs are not given constants. Morality is by nature a personal belief system and not necessarily held true by all people.

    Only a sith deals in absolutes :wink: Defining what is or isn't torture is a HUGE gray area to start with!
     
  13. Feb 25, 2010 #12

    arildno

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    Well, if you in your definition of torture includes that it is immoral and illegal, your absolute statements are trivially true.

    But then, you must say, for example, that Roman law was just and fair, because the aim of Roman law was, explicitly, to render justice and give everyone their rightful due..


    Once you get out of infantile circular definitions of torture, we'll be happy to debate with you. :smile:
     
  14. Feb 25, 2010 #13
    Waterboarding is torture, no doubt.

    There is nothing stupid in torturing a child to have them obey to authority. It's immoral, cruel... whatever you want, and I strongly disagree with it, but at least it's not stupid, because it works. They do not need to understand authority yet, only yield to it. They will rebel against authority at teenage years anyway, whether authority was justified or not.

    In addition to being stupid, immoral, cruel... it is stupid to torture people to have them tell the truth.
     
  15. Feb 25, 2010 #14
    Never lay your hands on a child or a woman. Sick SOB.

    Waterboarding = torture.. . hahahahah.

    Waterboarding is to good for the "people" at Gitmo. The more s*** we do to terrorists the better.

    Mullah Baradar was under interrogation by the Pakistanis because there are no rules against torture there. The CIA was hands off and got the information it needed.
     
  16. Feb 25, 2010 #15

    Ivan Seeking

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    On what do you base your opinion. It is simulated drowning that can easily result in real drowning. Even people trained to endure torture can only endure waterboarding for a few seconds. How can that not be torture by definition?

    I thought you were a Christian. Anyway, even if one accepts that we should torture terrorists, the people at Gitmo have never been tried in court. What if they are innocent? What then does this make us? Does this make us the good guys?

    So your position is that the end justifies the means. Interesting. You don't see any problems with that philosophy?
     
  17. Feb 25, 2010 #16
    tenchar
     
  18. Feb 25, 2010 #17
    It's amazing. If I think of any other country, or any other time in history... it's the first time I see people practice torture and think they can get reliable information out of it. When we torture people, it's not to have them give away some information, it's to have them admit to whatever we want them to.
     
  19. Feb 25, 2010 #18
    So all of those weapon caches and terrorist strongholds were just made up then huh?
     
  20. Feb 25, 2010 #19
    Easy stab at this one : go over Africa collect organs : you'll reduce world poverty AND save american lives...
     
  21. Feb 25, 2010 #20
    How do you know the method you used was efficient, and that there was no other method ?
     
  22. Feb 25, 2010 #21
    Trial and error I suppose. Maybe there is a big wheel with different techniques on it?

    Waterboarding should be a last resort type of thing. Most AQ and Taliban captured from my knowledge will crack very easily, and nothing drastic will have to happen.
     
  23. Feb 25, 2010 #22
    You are making assumptions. It is not easy to prove/disapprove the effectiveness of waterboarding and if it really helps Americans.
     
  24. Feb 25, 2010 #23

    BobG

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    Possible? Actually, there's no way for the public to know what kind of info interrogations revealed. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/16/world/asia/16intel.html

    So, yes, it's possible Pakistanis could torture Baradar.

    Then again, why bother torturing him. If Pakistan has become serious about cracking down on the Taliban, then it would probably come as a huge surprise to Baradar. There's hardly any reason for him to resist answering any questions Pakistanis ask him.
     
  25. Feb 25, 2010 #24
    So we need someone in the CIA to tell us how effective any form of interrogation is. Until then it is pointless to talk about it because we can neither prove nor disprove the effectiveness of such actions as we have no real experience in the fields.
     
  26. Feb 25, 2010 #25
    Demonstrably false. There ARE moral truisms - 'absolutes' if you like, values that you find in each and every single culture: One of them is that you should apply to yourself the same standards you would apply to others (ie. don't be a hypocrit). There is very strong evidence to suggest our sense of morality is something innate to all of us human beings - infact it has come about through our evolution (google 'recriprocal altruism'). Ofcourse there are people who don't adhere to these moral truisms - there is a word to describe such people in the English language - "psychopaths".

    Are you honestly telling me that an activity that:

    is a gray area for you? Seriously?

    The problem with people who support torture is that they know they will never be tortured themselves, but are perfectly happy for other innocent people to be tortured.
     
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