Iraqi unrest, Syrian unrest, and ISIS/ISIL/Daesh

  • News
  • Thread starter Chronos
  • Start date
In summary, the Iraqi government, under severe military pressure from insurgents, is apparently on the verge of collapse. They requested US military aid, but, were refused. Is it just me, or does anyone else find this disturbing?
  • #841
Daesh in Raqqa.
http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/telling-the-truth-about-isis-and-raqqa

By the beginning of 2014, ISIS had absolute control of the city. They now overran the mosques, drove out Christians from the city, and turned major municipal buildings into their various headquarters. The propaganda campaign that ISIS mustered following the capture of Raqqa brought on a wave of foreigners.
. . . .
In mid-April, 2014, just a month after the first crucifixions in the city, a group of six like-minded young people started to talk to each other on Facebook. The group expanded only a little before ISIS discovered it. Within two or three weeks a local imam declared that anyone who worked with R.B.S.S. would be tracked down and executed. Some civilians were arrested simply because they “liked” a post on social media.

In May, 2014, R.B.S.S. suffered its first casualty. One of the men at the bar told me: “One of our reporters was stopped at a checkpoint and his equipment was confiscated and searched.” He was held for three weeks, then executed in a public square in Raqqa.

“In the beginning we didn’t think it was that dangerous,” Hamza said. “We didn’t think they would execute us. . . . "
Be thankful if one is not in Raqqa.
 
  • Like
Likes HossamCFD
Physics news on Phys.org
  • #842
I'm impressed by the use of leaflets. They should use more of those things.
US warplanes have destroyed 283 fuel tankers that were being used to transport oil to help fund the Islamic State ...

US jets on Saturday first conducted a low-flying "show of force" over the trucks, then dropped leaflets telling drivers to flee. ...

... the leaflets dropped stated: "Get out of your trucks now, and run away from them."

... the drivers themselves were not thought to be jihadists.

... US A-10 air-to-ground attack planes and AC-130 gunships then destroyed the tankers, Davis said, adding there had been no reports of civilian casualties. "We have very methodically gone through this to ensure that we are doing this in a way that is humane and not going to cause civilian casualties," Davis said ...
http://news.yahoo.com/us-warplanes-destroy-283-fuel-trucks-syria-211341520.html
 
  • Like
Likes HossamCFD
  • #843
CUkiQ0yWEAA8x4V.png

_86856145_russian_plane_shot_down_624.png
The radar track show them crossing the border and out. Maybe 10-15 seconds at close to Mach 1. Not a hostile incursion or direct threat to Turkey but it was a technical incursion after Russia was warned many times before this. Totally unnecessary to shoot down a plane for this when a AA radar lock would have the same effect.

Turkey was on a hair-trigger and I suspect Russia will have fighter escorts with it's bombers the next time near the border.
 
  • Like
Likes Silicon Waffle
  • #844
The War Continues

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/russia-bombards-syrian-rebels-near-downed-russian-jet-122428258.html
YAYLADAGI, Turkey (Reuters) - Russian forces launched a heavy bombardment against insurgent-held areas in Syria's Latakia province on Wednesday, near where a Russian warplane had been shot down by Turkey the day before, rebels and a monitoring group said.

At least 12 air strikes hit Latakia's northern countryside as pro-government forces clashed with fighters from al Qaeda's Nusra Front and Turkmen insurgents in the Jabal Akrad and Jabal Turkman areas, the British-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said.

A Turkmen commander said missiles fired from Russian warships in the Mediterranean were also hitting the area, as well as heavy artillery shelling.
 
  • #845
The population in that part of Syria are predominantly Turkmen, who are opposed to Assad. Turkey is an apparently ally and supporter of the Turkmen in Syria. Apparently there are al Nusra groups there as well. It makes me wonder if the aircraft that was shot down was attacking the Turkmen and al Nusra rather than Daesh.

With Russia supporting Assad, it would seem to put Russia in conflict with interests of US and EU, and parts of the ME.
 
  • Like
Likes nikkkom
  • #846
Astronuc said:
. It makes me wonder if the aircraft that was shot down was attacking the Turkmen and al Nusra rather than Daesh..
Rather than? Russia's focus on entering Syria was not Daesh. As far as I know still is not.
 
  • #847
nsaspook said:
The radar track show them crossing the border and out. Maybe 10-15 seconds at close to Mach 1. ...
Thanks. What's the source for the time-speed information? I don't see any on the graphics.
 
  • #848
mheslep said:
Thanks. What's the source for the time-speed information? I don't see any on the graphics.
After Turkish representatives presented their side of the encounter at the meeting, they received expressions of support for their country’s territorial integrity, according to the diplomats’ account.

The Russian Su-24 that was struck was over the Hatay region of Turkey for about 17 seconds, according to one diplomat who attended the NATO meeting. But the plane re-entered Syrian airspace after being hit and therefore crashed in Syria, the diplomat said.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/25/world/europe/turkey-syria-russia-military-plane.html?_r=0
russian-jet-shootdown-russianvers.png

They say 17 seconds but Russia says they didn't cross, period. Could they both be right?

http://arstechnica.com/information-...-russian-jet-for-disputed-airspace-violation/

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34925229
The foreign minister spent a fraught hour on the phone to his Turkish counterpart today, but his conclusion was critical: "We do not intend to go to war with Turkey," Sergei Lavrov assured the world.

Instead, ministries have been ordered to report back to the Kremlin on any projects involving Turkey, for a decision on possible sanctions. The future of a pipeline project could be in doubt and there have been calls for flights to Turkey to be suspended.

Meanwhile, tourists have been warned against traveling there for "security reasons". Last year, Turkey was the destination of choice for over three million Russian holidaymakers.
 
  • #849
nsaspook said:
The radar track show them crossing the border and out. Maybe 10-15 seconds at close to Mach 1.

Su-24 is a ground attack aircraft, it can barely manage 1.3 Mach on afterburner, and that at high altitude only. It's likely it wasn't going anywhere close to that velocity.
 
  • #850
"Columbia University's Program on Peace-building and Rights assigned a team of researchers in the United States, Europe, and Turkey to examine Turkish and international media, assessing the credibility of allegations. This report draws on a variety of international sources -- The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Guardian, The Daily Mail, BBC, Sky News, as well as Turkish sources, CNN Turk, Hurriyet Daily News, Taraf, Cumhuriyet, and Radikal among others."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-l-phillips/research-paper-isis-turke_b_6128950.html
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2015/11/report-turkey-collaborating-with-the-islamic-state

The allegations are as follows:

- Turkey Provides Military Equipment to ISIS
- Turkey Provided Transport and Logistical Assistance to ISIS Fighters
- Turkey Provided Training to ISIS Fighters
- Turkey Offers Medical Care to ISIS Fighters
- Turkey Supports ISIS Financially Through Purchase of Oil
- Turkey Assists ISIS Recruitment
- Turkish Forces Are Fighting Alongside ISIS
- Turkey Helped ISIS in Battle for Kobani
- Turkey and ISIS Share a Worldview
 
  • #851
The pretend war.
coverimage2.jpg


Snippet:

...Erdogan and Putin give the world a glimpse into how all this could spin out of control.

The threat posed by terrorism is merely symptomatic of larger underlying problems. Crush Isis, whether by bombing or employing boots on the ground, and those problems will still persist. A new Isis, under a different name but probably flying the same banner, will appear in its place, much as Isis itself emerged from the ashes of al-Qaeda in Iraq.

Does the West possesses the wherewithal to sustain another long war?

http://new.spectator.co.uk/2015/11/sorry-but-just-bombing-isis-in-syria-wont-help-anyone/
 
  • #852
For UK-based PFers: A channel 4 documentary about a "12-month undercover investigation that penetrates the secret world of the women in the UK who support Isis and glorify jihadis"

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/isis-the-british-women-supporters-unveiled/on-demand/60376-001

Pretty enlightening and scary.
 
Last edited:
  • #853
Some background historical info on the Syria conflict, which does not seem to be mentioned here.

This is not a recent dispute. Bashar Assad's father had exactly the same uprising in 1982, and put it down in exactly the same forceful manner, with some 40,000 casualties. So we know that the current Syrian civil war has nothing to do with oil pipelines, global warming or the tooth fairy. Please see the Hama Massacre.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_Hama_massacreIn fact, this is a 1,300 year old dispute. Bashar Assad's Alawites were the most grievously persecuted minority in all of Syria, alongside the Yazidi. This is because they are half Christian and celebrate Easter and Christmas, and this makes them kuffer unbelievers to the Sunni majority. But the French saw the Alawites as allies and put them in control of the army, and from there they took control of Syria. And the Sunnies want to return the Alawites to the gutters of Syria, or worse.

So the Alawites are simply the Yazidi with guns. Would anyone condemn the Yazidi if they defended themselves against Sunni aggression? So why do Western governments condemn the Alawites of Bashar Assad? If Assad ceded power, all 4 million Alawites would be eliminated, and if the Alawites went then all 4 million Syriac Christians would be eliminated too. Which is why the Syriac Christians have backed Bashar Assad all this time.

The situation is much more complex than the Western media like to claim.

R
 
  • Like
Likes Dotini
  • #854
ralfellis said:
In fact, this is a 1,300 year old dispute. Bashar Assad's Alawites were the most grievously persecuted minority in all of Syria, alongside the Yazidi. This is because they are half Christian and celebrate Easter and Christmas, and this makes them kuffer unbelievers to the Sunni majority. But the French saw the Alawites as allies and put them in control of the army, and from there they took control of Syria. And the Sunnies want to return the Alawites to the gutters of Syria, or worse.

So the Alawites are simply the Yazidi with guns. Would anyone condemn the Yazidi if they defended themselves against Sunni aggression? So why do Western governments condemn the Alawites of Bashar Assad? If Assad ceded power, all 4 million Alawites would be eliminated, and if the Alawites went then all 4 million Syriac Christians would be eliminated too. Which is why the Syriac Christians have backed Bashar Assad all this time.
Please post the source for this.

Thank you.
 
  • #855
ralfellis said:
In fact, this is a 1,300 year old dispute. Bashar Assad's Alawites were the most grievously persecuted minority in all of Syria, alongside the Yazidi. This is because they are half Christian and celebrate Easter and Christmas, and this makes them kuffer unbelievers to the Sunni majority. But the French saw the Alawites as allies and put them in control of the army, and from there they took control of Syria. And the Sunnies want to return the Alawites to the gutters of Syria, or worse.

The sad truth is that for the entire region this is SOP: you win and seize power, you oppress all other groups using whatever means available, up to and including use of WMDs (chemical weapons). Shia, Sunni, Alawites, ..., Lebanese Christians are almost indistinguishable in their methods.
 
  • #856
ralfellis said:
So the Alawites are simply the Yazidi with guns. Would anyone condemn the Yazidi if they defended themselves against Sunni aggression?

I'm sorry what sunni aggression and what defence? I wouldn't really call deploying tanks to meet anti-governement protesters in Deraa and Homs as a defence of a persecuted minority.

I mean 4 years isn't that long of a period to completely forget how the conflict started. But perhaps we need a quick refresher
https://news.vice.com/article/syria-after-four-years-timeline-of-a-conflict
https://www.washingtonpost.com/apps/g/page/world/timeline-unrest-in-syria/207/

You'll notice that the conflict didn't become fully sectarian until 2013. The original protests had more to do with the government being Baathist (stated in the Syrian constitution as "the leader of the state and society") than it being largely Alawite. You might remember that the last notorious Baathist was in fact Sunni.

ralfellis said:
The situation is much more complex
Indeed it is. Though I'm afraid that what you presented here is even more of an oversimplification than most accounts by the media.
 
  • #857
nikkkom said:
The sad truth is that for the entire region this is SOP: you win and seize power, you oppress all other groups using whatever means available, up to and including use of WMDs (chemical weapons). Shia, Sunni, Alawites, ..., Lebanese Christians are almost indistinguishable in their methods.
The Israelis, at least, break the regional trend.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes nikkkom and russ_watters
  • #858
The US is beginning to put real pressure on Turkey to close the border.
The US suspects Turkey of supporting ISIS. But Turkey has its reasons for doing so.
"US officials are quoted as saying that there could be “significant blowback” against Turkey by European states if it allows Isis militants to cross from Syria into Turkey and then carry out terrorist outrages in Europe."
All according to this article: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-stretch-of-frontier-with-syria-a6753836.html

24-Graphic-Supply-Line-Turkey's-Border.jpg


3b2cac37146695351730333a5f28d553.JPG
 
  • #859
Westminster is voting tonight on the government motion to extend air strikes to ISIS targets in Syria.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34980504

Most Tories and Lib Dems are expected to support the motion. Labour MPs are split, with Corbyn arguing against the motion, though he offered a free vote on the issue. SNP is mostly against.
 
  • #860
Dotini said:
The US is beginning to put real pressure on Turkey to close the border.
The US suspects Turkey of supporting ISIS. But Turkey has its reasons for doing so.
"US officials are quoted as saying that there could be “significant blowback” against Turkey by European states if it allows Isis militants to cross from Syria into Turkey and then carry out terrorist outrages in Europe."
All according to this article...

The wording using in the article was "long-term tolerance of, and possible complicity with". That is, I would use the word "support" to describe what, say, Iran does with Hezbollah. I don't like what Turkey is known to be tolerating in, or complicit with ISIS, but I don't think the relationship is the same as Iran-Hezbollah.

...The US move follows increasing international criticism of Turkey for what is seen as its long-term tolerance of, and possible complicity with, Isis and other extreme jihadi groups such as al-Qaeda’s branch in Syria, Jabhat al-Nusra Front, and Ahrar al-Sham. Not only have thousands of foreign fighters passed through Turkey on their way to join Isis, but crude oil from oilfields seized by Isis in north-east Syria has been transported to Turkey for sale, providing much of revenue of the self-declared Islamic State.

Last week a Turkish court jailed two prominent journalists for publishing pictures of a Turkish truck delivering ammunition to opposition fighters in Syria. President Recep Tayyip Erdogan claimed that the weapons were destined for Turkmen paramilitaries allied to Turkey fighting in Syria, but this was denied by Turkish political leaders close to the Turkmen...
 
Last edited:
  • #861
HossamCFD said:
Westminster is voting tonight on the government motion to extend air strikes to ISIS targets in Syria.
British government wins support of the house for air strikes against ISIS in Syria by 397 to 223.
 
  • Like
Likes S.G. Janssens
  • #862
HossamCFD said:
British government wins support of the house for air strikes against ISIS in Syria by 397 to 223.
Now it's time for the Dutch to also step forward with their (very modest) contribution.
 
  • Like
Likes mheslep and HossamCFD
  • #863
Krylov said:
Now it's time for the Dutch to also step forward with their (very modest) contribution.
When lives are placed in harms way, the contribution would not be modest but noble in my view. These would be Dutch pilots, Dutch lives at risk. And Dutch defense spending is one of the highest in Europe per GDP.
 
  • Like
Likes S.G. Janssens
  • #864
mheslep said:
When lives are placed in harms way, the contribution would not be modest but noble in my view. These would be Dutch pilots, Dutch lives at risk. And Dutch defense spending is one of the highest in Europe per GDP.
Thank you, I appreciate your response. At the moment there is a small Dutch contribution in Iraq airspace, but the enemy is not deterred by borders. Usually I'm not such a "hawk", but in this case I think there is no alternative to a strong military answer. IS cannot be reasoned with, we have seen enough horrific evidence of that.
 
  • #865
Krylov said:
Usually I'm not such a "hawk",
I see. Hawk used to be the term for the shoot first, shoot some more, and after everyone's dead negotiate school. Now the entire discussion is falsely mis-framed, I think, when "hawk" is the default label for *any* proposal for military action, regardless of scope or justification.
 
  • #866
mheslep said:
I see. Hawk used to be the term for the shoot first, shoot some more, and after everyone's dead negotiate school. Now the entire discussion is falsely mis-framed, I think, when "hawk" is the default label for *any* proposal for military action, regardless of scope or justification.
I agree. When using the word "hawk" I was more thinking about the classical hawk-dove game, and it seems that while learning about the doings of IS I am required to adopt my "mixed strategy" to include more of "hawk" and less of "dove". Unfortunately, there seems to be no other way.
 
  • #867
Russia appears to have 'gone ballistic' in Syria — and it may be helping ISIS
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/russia-appears-gone-ballistic-syria-203310805.html
A stepped-up Russian bombing campaign in the Bayirbucak region of northwest Syria, near the strategically important city of Azaz, has primarily targeted the Turkey-backed Turkmen rebels and civilians — and the Turkish aid convoys that supply them.
It looks like Russia is mostly, if not exclusively, hitting rebel forces and Turkish interests. Maybe Daesh comes later.
 
  • #868
mheslep said:
... And Dutch defense spending is one of the highest in Europe per GDP.
I can't recall now where I got that idea, but it appears to not be the case. Per the graphic, the Netherlands spends 1.2% on defense, about middle of the EU countries, well below the NATO recommendation. So yes, modest in regard to spending.

WO-AW916_NATOSP_16U_20150622175709.jpg
 
  • #870
many of the ex-Baathists working with Islamic State are driven by self preservation and a shared hatred of the Shi'ite-led government in Baghdad. Others are true believers who became radicalized in the early years after Saddam's ouster, converted on the battlefield or in U.S. military and Iraqi prisons.

One former intelligence commander who served in Iraq's national intelligence service from 2003 to 2009 said some ex-Baathists pushed out of state agencies by Iraq's government were only too happy to find new masters. "ISIS pays them," he said.
http://news.yahoo.com/special-report-saddams-men-help-islamic-state-rule-100208506.html
 
  • #872
After the Labor's election of Jeremy "[no] external intervention" Corbyn I had written off any further contribution of the UK to the fight against ISIS in Syria, as in Corbyn's mind ISIS and America are roughly the same thing:

"Yes they [ISIS] are brutal, yes some of what they have done is quite appalling, likewise what the Americans did in Fallujah and other places is appalling."

But then comes shadow foreign minister Hilary Benn's speech on Dec 2 in support of UK air attack in Syria, followed by an unheard of round of applause. Been really gets rolling after 6:30:

 
Last edited:
  • #873
mheslep said:
After the Labor's election of Jeremy "[no] external intervention" Corbyn I had written off any further contribution of the UK to the fight against ISIS
Well, I think he deserves at least some credit for offering a free Labour vote on the motion. He could've whipped the vote, as many voices in the Labour party were asking him to. With the SNP mostly against the motion, a whipped Labour rejection of the motion could've changed the outcome.

Hilary Benn's speech was of course the highlight of the marathon debate. It was reported that about 16 Labour MPs voted for the motion primarily because of it.
 
  • Like
Likes mheslep
  • #874
HossamCFD said:
Well, I think he deserves at least some credit for offering a free Labour vote on the motion.
Possibly, and possibly he had no (politically viable) choice. That is, other Labour leaders may have threatened some kind of excommunication if he failed to get out of the way.
 
  • Like
Likes HossamCFD
  • #875
mheslep said:
But then comes shadow foreign minister Hilary Benn's speech on Dec 2 in support of UK air attack in Syria, followed by an unheard of round of applause.
Benn provides a cogent and compelling speech.
 
  • Like
Likes HossamCFD
<h2>1. What is the cause of the unrest in Iraq and Syria?</h2><p>The unrest in Iraq and Syria can be attributed to a combination of factors, including political and religious divisions, economic disparity, and external influence. The invasion of Iraq by the United States in 2003, the Arab Spring uprisings in 2011, and the ongoing Syrian Civil War have all contributed to the current state of unrest in the region.</p><h2>2. What is the difference between ISIS, ISIL, and Daesh?</h2><p>ISIS, ISIL, and Daesh are all acronyms for the same extremist group that has gained control over parts of Iraq and Syria. ISIS stands for the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria, while ISIL stands for the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant. Daesh is an Arabic term that is used to refer to the group in a derogatory manner. The group has also been referred to as the Islamic State (IS) or the Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham (ISIS).</p><h2>3. How has ISIS/ISIL/Daesh been able to gain power in Iraq and Syria?</h2><p>ISIS/ISIL/Daesh has been able to gain power in Iraq and Syria due to a combination of factors, including the power vacuum created by the fall of Saddam Hussein's regime in Iraq, the ongoing civil war in Syria, and the group's ability to exploit sectarian and ethnic divisions in the region. Additionally, the group has been able to gain resources and recruits through its control of oil fields and its use of social media to spread its message.</p><h2>4. What impact has the unrest in Iraq and Syria had on the region and the world?</h2><p>The unrest in Iraq and Syria has had a significant impact on the region and the world. It has resulted in the displacement of millions of people, destabilized neighboring countries, and led to a humanitarian crisis. The rise of ISIS/ISIL/Daesh has also posed a threat to global security, with the group carrying out terrorist attacks in various countries.</p><h2>5. What is being done to address the situation in Iraq and Syria?</h2><p>The international community has taken various measures to address the situation in Iraq and Syria, including military intervention, providing humanitarian aid, and supporting diplomatic efforts to find a resolution to the conflicts. The United Nations has also been actively involved in efforts to provide aid and facilitate peace talks. However, the situation remains complex and ongoing efforts are necessary to achieve stability and peace in the region.</p>

1. What is the cause of the unrest in Iraq and Syria?

The unrest in Iraq and Syria can be attributed to a combination of factors, including political and religious divisions, economic disparity, and external influence. The invasion of Iraq by the United States in 2003, the Arab Spring uprisings in 2011, and the ongoing Syrian Civil War have all contributed to the current state of unrest in the region.

2. What is the difference between ISIS, ISIL, and Daesh?

ISIS, ISIL, and Daesh are all acronyms for the same extremist group that has gained control over parts of Iraq and Syria. ISIS stands for the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria, while ISIL stands for the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant. Daesh is an Arabic term that is used to refer to the group in a derogatory manner. The group has also been referred to as the Islamic State (IS) or the Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham (ISIS).

3. How has ISIS/ISIL/Daesh been able to gain power in Iraq and Syria?

ISIS/ISIL/Daesh has been able to gain power in Iraq and Syria due to a combination of factors, including the power vacuum created by the fall of Saddam Hussein's regime in Iraq, the ongoing civil war in Syria, and the group's ability to exploit sectarian and ethnic divisions in the region. Additionally, the group has been able to gain resources and recruits through its control of oil fields and its use of social media to spread its message.

4. What impact has the unrest in Iraq and Syria had on the region and the world?

The unrest in Iraq and Syria has had a significant impact on the region and the world. It has resulted in the displacement of millions of people, destabilized neighboring countries, and led to a humanitarian crisis. The rise of ISIS/ISIL/Daesh has also posed a threat to global security, with the group carrying out terrorist attacks in various countries.

5. What is being done to address the situation in Iraq and Syria?

The international community has taken various measures to address the situation in Iraq and Syria, including military intervention, providing humanitarian aid, and supporting diplomatic efforts to find a resolution to the conflicts. The United Nations has also been actively involved in efforts to provide aid and facilitate peace talks. However, the situation remains complex and ongoing efforts are necessary to achieve stability and peace in the region.

Similar threads

  • General Discussion
Replies
12
Views
3K
  • General Discussion
2
Replies
62
Views
8K
  • General Discussion
Replies
19
Views
3K
  • Poll
  • General Discussion
Replies
32
Views
4K
  • General Discussion
Replies
9
Views
2K
  • General Discussion
Replies
18
Views
3K
  • General Discussion
Replies
4
Views
2K
Replies
123
Views
14K
  • General Discussion
Replies
29
Views
5K
  • General Discussion
Replies
3
Views
2K
Back
Top